Dr. Pepper Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: WTF is it with conspiracy theories? The baggage thing - I have several times heard explanations on CNN from hotel people that showing up with ten heavy bags is not unusual to LV hotels at all whatsoever. There are so many conventions on all the time and people come in with equipment, goods for booths, booths packed up in bags (I've set up a few booths in my life), lots of changes of clothing etc. Many people are in for a weekend and then pack up for another show/conference/meet-up next weekend somewhere down the road. Even then, my family members who were on this trip had posted snapchats and instagrams before they left of all this photo evidence of having overpacked. I would imagine a person checking into a hotel might be able to say they had other family members or guests joining. Maybe that's why he was using his girlfriends ID, to better claim there were more people staying in the suite? I mean, in the end it doesn't matter because no one has ever scrutinized the number of bags I brought into a hotel room. I also doubt even in casinos security is keeping an extra close eye on what's happening in the hallways near the rooms when they are most concerned with what's happening on the casino floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 It's what I call the Jet Fuel can't melt steal beams technique. Sure, it can't, but it doesn't have to, it just has to soften it a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 3 hours ago, S John said: Conspiracy theories started coming out right away. I knew they would as it is a very convenient deflection from the elephant in the room, but it is absolutely maddening how effective a little misdirection is in terms of causing a relevant discussion to completely lose traction and go off the rails. I'm also really, honestly baffled by the need of some people to fit EVERYTHING that ever happens into a neat little interconnected narrative as if nothing random, or senseless ever happens in life. I really try to maintain an understanding of the thinking of the other side of the political spectrum by visiting some right-leaning discussion boards from time to time but I really might have to give it up soon. It isn't good for my blood pressure. The theories around this one are particularly idiotic, given the lack of information released to the public thus far. False flag left wing conspiracy meant to take away our guns, ergo we should probably kill the libruls before they kill us. The people starting this shit WANT a Civil War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said: Even then, my family members who were on this trip had posted snapchats and instagrams before they left of all this photo evidence of having overpacked. I would imagine a person checking into a hotel might be able to say they had other family members or guests joining. Maybe that's why he was using his girlfriends ID, to better claim there were more people staying in the suite? I mean, in the end it doesn't matter because no one has ever scrutinized the number of bags I brought into a hotel room. I also doubt even in casinos security is keeping an extra close eye on what's happening in the hallways near the rooms when they are most concerned with what's happening on the casino floor. People also seem to think like this was some spur of the moment thing he did. Guy had been planning this for months if not years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Sadly, some folks seem to be more comfortable with the idea that there's a Secret Conspiracy Behind It All, because otherwise they have to face that all it takes is one person or a small group to ruin things for a lot of people. The illusion of Order, even doing something evil, can be more comforting than the omnipresent possibility of chaos. And then there's always that sense of superiority some people get when they know The Truth, and everyone else is just a bunch of "sheeple." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 6 hours ago, S John said: Conspiracy theories started coming out right away. I knew they would as it is a very convenient deflection from the elephant in the room, but it is absolutely maddening how effective a little misdirection is in terms of causing a relevant discussion to completely lose traction and go off the rails. I'm also really, honestly baffled by the need of some people to fit EVERYTHING that ever happens into a neat little interconnected narrative as if nothing random, or senseless ever happens in life. I really try to maintain an understanding of the thinking of the other side of the political spectrum by visiting some right-leaning discussion boards from time to time but I really might have to give it up soon. It isn't good for my blood pressure. While the bolded is a large part of their appeal to people I'm sure, what we're seeing this time is significantly more than that. As you said, they started coming out right away and I mean immediately. News was breaking on twitter at around 5pm Aus time, so I was awake and seeing what came across twitter. One of our local freelance journalists noted that within the first hour, long before we had any solid information, the Russian bot networks had started up with spreading misinformation. There were also subsequently several 4chan threads workshopping how to spin the narrative, how to spread misinformation. Some of the hoaxes and conspiracy theories are baffling, the only purpose they seem to serve is to undermine the sense of reality. Which is a real and very dangerous purpose. This thread had started up tracking them within a few hours, I suspect its been posted before but I'm not sure - 4 hours ago, Relic said: The theories around this one are particularly idiotic, given the lack of information released to the public thus far. False flag left wing conspiracy meant to take away our guns, ergo we should probably kill the libruls before they kill us. The people starting this shit WANT a Civil War. Yeah, this is absolutely the agenda behind some of them. There are a lot of people that are trying to manipulate the shooting for their own ends. Its fucked up, but also a preview of what the future is going to be like. Media outlets need to start employing people that are specialised in untangling these webs - as weird as it is to say, people intimately familiar with chan culture, people with the technical expertise to pick apart the bot networks and explain what is happening. This is only going to get worse the way things currently are, as there are no shortage of people willing to take advantage of a tragedy. I'm not sure if I've seen it mentioned in this thread, but there have also been reports that he tried to get a room overlooking the same venue for a previous festival just over a week earlier, but was unable to get one of those rooms. I guess the timing for that would have been just after his girlfriend left the country from what Lew Theobald just said about when she left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 So is the fake victim thing part of cultivating this misinformation thing and creating more mistrust with media and the news? Like "see, all those fake victims so something must be fishy!"? I recall fake victims posted on twitter was an issue at the bombing during the Ariana Grande concert. I suppose other mass killing events as well. It just seemed bizarre to me but am I to understand that it's part of this misinformation agenda? The conspiracy theories on this one are just astounding to me. They seem so much worse than the usual, though it may be that I wasn't paying enough attention with other events since there was no personal connection. Right now I see two people on my facebook feed arguing that the shooter couldn't have been who is being advertised since he doesn't fit the terrorist profile. The only reason I don't delete any of these people is because I would probably be ignorant to a lot of what's going on in the world of the typical right wing conservative trump supporter. It's all a sort of Grimm fairy tale where they make their own reality and that reality is terrifying. But it is true that he doesn't fit the profile. He's older, he was wealthy, doesn't have a criminal background. There is one report that he treated his gf like shit, but other reports are that he was kind to her. Her own statement indicates that he was a loving partner to her, and the speculation that he sent her out of the county and allegedly wired money might support that. It was a surprise to me when she turned out to have been out of the country because one would have expected her to be the first victim or a terrified woman holed up in a tiny apartment somewhere. It's all so baffling, especially that this was so meticulously planned with other venues possibly vetted. Maybe it's something stupid like he got a cancer diagnosis and had some weird fetish about his name being in a history book or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Oh I'd say he its the terrorist profile extremely well, he just doesn't fit the popular conception of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I think the conspiracy stuff seems louder and more prevalent cause the head nutjob (Jones) has had official endorsements from our dear President. Te same shit was being thrown around after Sandy Hook and the Pulse shootings but we had an actual human being running the country then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 @Dr. Pepper the fake victims thing is the one that I really can't wrap my head around any purpose beyond a general "destroying the publics ability to perceive reality". It just seems to sow chaos, confusing and mistrust. I'm not sure if it was in that thread or not, but the fake 'Dad missing' from the very first tweet in the thread is an image of a porn actor that was also used for a "my son is missing" after the Ariana Grande bombing. Buried in the replies to the tweet this time, after it had ~1000 likes and RTs, was a reply from another account "this did well boss" and a reply back from the original tweeter satisfied "it did". I don't think the 'boss' there is a random word choice. As for whether he fits the profile or not? I think we need the financial details to come out. Seems to me like it has the potential to fit someone that had become a gambling high roller, racked up a lot of debt and had no way out of it. The fact he had 100k on hand, and the funds to set all this up at the hotel etc, doesn't mean his gambling debts weren't much much higher than that. Sending his gf out of the country and sending her what money he has left, before going out in a way he's deluded himself to be a big splash + potentially was trying to hurt the casinos? If he had no debt, no connections with the casino and really was a mostly good boyfriend then...yeah. I've got nothing at that point. Medical record is definitely something to check as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 4 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said: More likely, the reason more attention is given by the media to this conspiracy stuff is that media is pushing exactly this narrative. Also, the media has completely destroyed their own credibility, which unfortunately leaves lots of distrustful citizens to the mercy of their imaginations, etc. Haha no. 2 minutes ago, Let's Get Kraken said: Do you honestly believe this or are you just convinced that if you say it enough other's will be convinced of it? Like, do you have any ability to read a room at all? Yeah I dunno anymore man, the species is doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Well, it kind of makes you look like an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 22 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said: Dude. There are actual polls out there that tell you that the public has indeed grown very distrustful of the major media -- moreso than in decades past. So what's the delusional part? The fact that I share the distrust? Sorry man. I can't help you there. Insult me all you want. I don't believe the silly conspiracy theories, but I do see that the distrust is not without basis. Lol, you know who gives those polls, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, karaddin said: While the bolded is a large part of their appeal to people I'm sure, what we're seeing this time is significantly more than that. As you said, they started coming out right away and I mean immediately. News was breaking on twitter at around 5pm Aus time, so I was awake and seeing what came across twitter. One of our local freelance journalists noted that within the first hour, long before we had any solid information, the Russian bot networks had started up with spreading misinformation. There were also subsequently several 4chan threads workshopping how to spin the narrative, how to spread misinformation. Some of the hoaxes and conspiracy theories are baffling, the only purpose they seem to serve is to undermine the sense of reality. Which is a real and very dangerous purpose. This thread had started up tracking them within a few hours, I suspect its been posted before but I'm not sure - Yeah, this is absolutely the agenda behind some of them. There are a lot of people that are trying to manipulate the shooting for their own ends. Its fucked up, but also a preview of what the future is going to be like. Media outlets need to start employing people that are specialised in untangling these webs - as weird as it is to say, people intimately familiar with chan culture, people with the technical expertise to pick apart the bot networks and explain what is happening. This is only going to get worse the way things currently are, as there are no shortage of people willing to take advantage of a tragedy. I'm not sure if I've seen it mentioned in this thread, but there have also been reports that he tried to get a room overlooking the same venue for a previous festival just over a week earlier, but was unable to get one of those rooms. I guess the timing for that would have been just after his girlfriend left the country from what Lew Theobald just said about when she left. @Relic as well If you really find yourself in the mood for losing sleep you should check out this episode of radiolab sometime: http://www.radiolab.org/story/breaking-news/ Basically, voice and facial manipulation software are getting to the point where they can imitate just about anybody with enough footage or audio clips available. While not quite perfected yet, as it improves this will bring the whole fake news phenomenon to an entirely new level while also providing blanket plausible deniability for demagogue types. We'll have to second guess recordings as well as print and Trumpian characters will be able to say, 'fake news' even if you've got 'em on tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 6 hours ago, karaddin said: Media outlets need to start employing people that are specialised in untangling these webs - as weird as it is to say, people intimately familiar with chan culture, people with the technical expertise to pick apart the bot networks and explain what is happening. This is a really good and important point. This absolutely needs to happen, and it needs to happen ASAP. In the past mass and prestige media seemed unwilling to engage with the assholes spreading these theories, or even acknowledge the existence of them, as if discussing them would lend them more credit. That has to stop. We have seen in the past 18 months that large amounts of Americans are easily manipulated by lies that reaffirm their existing beliefs, and we need to get out way in front of that before the loons decide to take matters into their own hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, S John said: Basically, voice and facial manipulation software are getting to the point where they can imitate just about anybody with enough footage or audio clips available. While not quite perfected yet, as it improves this will bring the whole fake news phenomenon to an entirely new level while also providing blanket plausible deniability for demagogue types. We'll have to second guess recordings as well as print and Trumpian characters will be able to say, 'fake news' even if you've got 'em on tape. I can't even wrap my head around that. I think ill go open a tea house in the Himalayas and let humanity run its course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerHaHa Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Quote I can't even wrap my head around that. I think ill go open a tea house in the Himalayas and let humanity run its course. Heh, I've had many similar thoughts this week. If you need a waiter or dishwasher, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Relic said: I can't even wrap my head around that. I think ill go open a tea house in the Himalayas and let humanity run its course. I've always wanted to see the Himalayas. If you need a bartender let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maarsen Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 20 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said: Gallup, for one. http://news.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx But I'm not even saying you should trust Gallup, necessarily. Who did you have in mind? We could go back to using chicken entrails or casting runes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: I've always wanted to see the Himalayas. If you need a bartender let me know. I've been there. It's everything it's cracked up to be. CNN has been pushing the 'there had to be more than one shooter' narrative for a couple days now every time I tune in (which admittedly is not very often). I don't think the media is gonna bail us out of any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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