Vegas Shooting

[Relic]

5 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

what was with the travelling around she did? 

I've been "traveling around" for the last 4 years. Does that make me suspicious?

Honestly, i find this sort of speculation to be in really bad form. Maybe the GF knew something, quite possibly she didnt. but until the facts are investigated and released we should hold off with airing our suspicions. If fully innocent you have to remember that this woman's life just became a living hell. 

[Relic]

9 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

Ok. The fuck are we going to do next week though?

Start scouting locations? Remember the farm... 

[Fragile Bird]

5 hours ago, Relic said:

I've been "traveling around" for the last 4 years. Does that make me suspicious?

Honestly, i find this sort of speculation to be in really bad form. Maybe the GF knew something, quite possibly she didnt. but until the facts are investigated and released we should hold off with airing our suspicions. If fully innocent you have to remember that this woman's life just became a living hell. 

*sighs*

When your significant other buys you a plane ticket to get you out of town and also wires you a hundred grand, and then shoots 500 people, the FBI and the media will also speculate about those two weeks in your life, especially if it turns out that instead of going to visit your family you've been making mysterious side trips. No need to get upset about that idea, it's going to be unavoidable.

[Rippounet]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

But can I ask you a question?  Will you be just as quick to leap to the defense of the man who says, of the next Islamic mass killer, "What people are refusing to accept is that he was a pretty normal Muslim"?  Or will different rules apply in that situation?

At least as quick as you'll be to protest sweeping generalisations next time someone says that all Muslims are terrorists, for sure.

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Of the dead, most of the victims -- roughly 2/3rds -- were female.  I suppose this is just the normal demographics of a Jason Aldean concert?  I'm guessing it would be hard to target specific persons at 500+ yards, even with a scope.

If you are firing full auto with an assault rifle you will have a hard time hitting specific persons at 50 yards, nevermind 500. 

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Is that what he meant?  If so, he has not clarified.  And it does not seem to fit his words.  Nobody is refusing to accept that the shooter was a white man, and I don't think Darth Richard II meant that.  You're ignoring the word "normal".  Why?

But okay.  Maybe I'm being too testy.   But can I ask you a question?  Will you be just as quick to leap to the defense of the man who says, of the next Islamic mass killer, "What people are refusing to accept is that he was a pretty normal Muslim"?  Or will different rules apply in that situation?

Depends on the context of the conversation.  The context here was clearly who this fucker shitbrain was pre mass murder and how or whether someone close to him should have known.  And when all of the 'but he traveled, he owned guns, blah blah' came in and the response was "he was a normal white guy", which in the context of the conversation meant that it was unlikely anyone would have ever suspected that he was going to go on to murder 60 people.  

Now, if you want to argue that he wasn't a typical white guy because he was wealthy, had no single address because he owned tons of property and was a heavy gambler, then ok.  That's fair and accurate.  Otherwise, go away.

[IamMe90]

11 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 Yeah, facts are typically relevant. 

Yeah, no. There are a huge litany of facts that are not relevant whatsoever to any given situation. And I could come up with plenty of situations where someone's race would not be a relevant fact to bring up, and doing so would raise an eyebrow from me. 

However, in this situation, I think the shooter's race is relevant, if only because, from what I understand, in the US there tends to be a very high correlation of these shootings with whiteness. 

As far as what Lew Theobald said about reversing the situation, I'm going to say that, yes, the fact that someone is Muslim is relevant to a terrorist attack; the statistics simply do not allow that to be an irrelevant fact. I suspect we differ greatly on our explanations for those statistics, though. 

[Fragile Bird]

He was a normal white guy, as opposed to a bullied nerd white guy, a just been layed off and hated his co-workers white guy, a man with a history of psychiatric treatment white guy, a weirdo who raged against country music white guy, a fellow rejected by women white guy, a full of angst teen white guy etc etc.

He was also a normal white guy in the sense that he did not appear to have any desire to control the world, by, say, changing your country's school system, trying to destroy your political opponents, attacking media outlets you don't like etc etc.

[Fragile Bird]

56 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Yeah, no. There are a huge litany of facts that are not relevant whatsoever to any given situation. And I could come up with plenty of situations where someone's race would not be a relevant fact to bring up, and doing so would raise an eyebrow from me. 

However, in this situation, I think the shooter's race is relevant, if only because, from what I understand, in the US there tends to be a very high correlation of these shootings with whiteness. 

As far as what Lew Theobald said about reversing the situation, I'm going to say that, yes, the fact that someone is Muslim is relevant to a terrorist attack; the statistics simply do not allow that to be an irrelevant fact. I suspect we differ greatly on our explanations for those statistics, though. 

Actually the statistics show that when it comes to mass killings (4 or more deaths) the killers correlate with the population in terms of colour. In terms of gender, though, they are overwhelmingly male.

So it's not white people you need to fear, it's men. Of all colours.

[IamMe90]

12 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

Actually the statistics show that when it comes to mass killings (4 or more deaths) the killers correlate with the population in terms of colour. In terms of gender, though, they are overwhelmingly male.

So it's not white people you need to fear, it's men. Of all colours.

Interesting, I didn't know that; thanks for the info. That actually makes intuitive sense to me.

[Fragile Bird]

2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Well, I don't see why we can't cross out the word "white" and still make your point.  

But okay.  Nonetheless, despite appearances, it seems reasonable to suppose that there must be something wrong with the above picture.  For instance, despite appearances, perhaps he was mentally ill.  Or, perhaps there was some ideological agenda, despite no evidence of it, so far.  Seems a logical train of thought to me.  

But that was precisely the train of thought that Darth Richard II was objecting to.  As if "normal guy" were an adequate explanation for his conduct.  That seems to reflect an extraordinarily dark and cynical view of human nature, at the very least.  Unless he wants to clarify that he only meant to insult white people.

 

I think you are missing the point completely.

Every white guy that has done a big mass killing has been excused because....he had a brain tumour (the original killer who kicked this all off, the U of Texas tower killer), or it was an angry white guy who just had his world collapse (poor guy got fired) or was mentally unstable (under psychiatric care or taking meds, or not taking his meds). The neighbours thought he was a creep. The police had been called out more than once. Not the Vegas p.o.s.

Non-white men who kill are terrorists or drug dealers or some other professional criminal. If you can't trust a normal white guy, who can you trust, eh?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, IamMe90 said:

Yeah, no. There are a huge litany of facts that are not relevant whatsoever to any given situation. And I could come up with plenty of situations where someone's race would not be a relevant fact to bring up, and doing so would raise an eyebrow from me. 

However, in this situation, I think the shooter's race is relevant, if only because, from what I understand, in the US there tends to be a very high correlation of these shootings with whiteness. 

As far as what Lew Theobald said about reversing the situation, I'm going to say that, yes, the fact that someone is Muslim is relevant to a terrorist attack; the statistics simply do not allow that to be an irrelevant fact. I suspect we differ greatly on our explanations for those statistics, though. 

True, I suppose I was speaking to broadly there. I forgot my Talking Heads lyrics there for a moment...

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape

Agree with the Muslim bit as well. 

And I like Fragile Bird's point, one post up as well. I think it's fair to say that this is mostly a male problem, as opposed to mostly a White/Arabic/Black/etc problem.   

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

43 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Well, I don't see why we can't cross out the word "white" and still make your point.  

But okay.  Nonetheless, despite appearances, it seems reasonable to suppose that there must be something wrong with the above picture.  For instance, despite appearances, perhaps he was mentally ill.  Or, perhaps there was some ideological agenda, despite no evidence of it, so far.  Seems a logical train of thought to me.  

But that was precisely the train of thought that Darth Richard II was objecting to.  As if "normal guy" were an adequate explanation for his conduct.  That seems to reflect an extraordinarily dark and cynical view of human nature, at the very least.  Unless he wants to clarify that he only meant to insult white people.

Yeah, I get crossed up on the word normal as well. Obviously it's not normal to plan out and execute the murder of as many people as you can kill in one go. Hopefully the authorities can find some sort of diary or manifesto from this guy that sheds light on what drove this guy to do what he did. 

[IamMe90]

1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Well, I don't see why we can't cross out the word "white" and still make your point.  

But okay.  Nonetheless, despite appearances, it seems reasonable to suppose that there must be something wrong with the above picture.  For instance, despite appearances, perhaps he was mentally ill.  Or, perhaps there was some ideological agenda, despite no evidence of it, so far.  Seems a logical train of thought to me.  

But that was precisely the train of thought that Darth Richard II was objecting to.  As if "normal guy" were an adequate explanation for his conduct.  That seems to reflect an extraordinarily dark and cynical view of human nature, at the very least.  Unless he wants to clarify that he only meant to insult white people.

 

I think the most charitable reading of "normal" would be "normal with respect to all other metrics," other than, you know, the fact that he committed a mass murder. It's completely possible that he might not have had a recognized mental illness or any other of the common factors we'd expect to see in a perpetrator of such an act. He could just be an evil human being. As  an aside, is psychopathy recognized as a mental illness (I can't recall)?

[Fragile Bird]

36 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

I think the most charitable reading of "normal" would be "normal with respect to all other metrics," other than, you know, the fact that he committed a mass murder. It's completely possible that he might not have had a recognized mental illness or any other of the common factors we'd expect to see in a perpetrator of such an act. He could just be an evil human being. As  an aside, is psychopathy recognized as a mental illness (I can't recall)?

There is an interesting story going around facebook, written by a fellow who talked about his then-girlfriend, now wife, who over a period of time was trending towards becoming a serial killer. She was on a new anti-depressant and over a period of months developed a psychosis where she thought she needed to go out and kill sexual predators, and had drawn up a plan to track down convicted predators and kill them. She had a forensics background. She actually asked him one day to drive her to a psychiatric facility where she checked herself in. The hospital asked if he would sign her out and take charge of her because she was convincing other patients in therapy of the reasonableness of her plan. 

The writer said she was on Cymbalta, and the first strange thing he noticed was when there was a teen who shot people at a Nebraska shopping mall. Instead of this good Christian girl saying "How awful" she said "'He only managed to kill five people in a crowded mall at Christmas time with a pistol and three magazines? He really needed to learn how to shoot." The teen, it turns out, was also on that anti-depressant. And I remember hearing a commercial while watching CNN about a company gathering participants in a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer.

I deleted the link because I think it links my facebook page as well. The author was John Ringo and he story name is A Theory On Las Vegas. You can probably find it.

Now, I assume if this shooter was on some anti-depressant we would have heard about it by now. It may be important, however, that when his bank robber father was finally arrested, in Las Vegas, the police described him as a psychopath.

[Darth Richard II]

JOHN RINGO OH NO

 

 

sorry

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

JOHN RINGO OH NO

 

 

sorry

Someone had to do it

[Darth Richard II]

Maybe I should have said "appeared" to be a normal white guy? I dunno, I don't want to rehash this one AGAIN. You'll are some fragile little birds.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

 You'll are some fragile little birds.

Maybe you can lend me some of your Indiana Jones DVDs and Captain America comic books so I can learn how to be a real man.

[Darth Richard II]

Blu Rays. Also don't forget the Rocketeer.