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Vegas Shooting


Which Tyler

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2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

At some point, another employee arrived, and the wounded guard warned him/her off.  You assume this was at the beginning.  But we have no such information.  For all you know, it was 18 minutes later, just before the police arrived.  We also don't know what the other employee did after he/she was warned off.  Maybe he/she just went and hid under a bed.  Or maybe he/she tried to dial 911 on her cell phone.  If he/she did, she would likely be (by then) one of a thousand such calls that the switchboards had to process.

We have been told, however, that the police knew nothing about the wounded security guard until they found him at 10:18.

So, you are simultaneously saying 'nothing to see here' and 'we have incomplete information' and the substance of your grievance seems to be other people having a different default than you do. Can you see how that's problematic for less authoritarian posters than yourself?

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20 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

So your anger is directed at the guy lying bleeding on the ground, for not telling someone sooner?

This has been nagging at me because I knew it was wrong.

The police praised the security guard as a hero in their press conferences because EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SHOT HE HELPED THE POLICE CLEAR THE FLOOR.

He used his master key to unlock doors for the police, among other things.

I have neither seen nor heard anything about the police not knowing the security guard was on the floor.

Your whole scenario of him too stunned or unconscious to alert anyone that he was shot is something you have invented out of thin air.

 

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Even if the security guard had been too stunned to report in, there's still a whole lot more people in this chain of broken communication.  The security team who sent him to check, the hotel, the police, etc.  The story is very different today than the story that had been presented for the past week.  Why did it take them so long to correct the timeline?  What caused the delay and the correction?  Where did communication break down?  Did the police order a SWAT team at the first hallway shooting and they failed to update orders when the shooter resumed shooting, this time on a crowd of people? Even if their was no communication breakdown prior to the second shooting event, there was still a significant breakdown for a whole week after.  This is highly distressing to the victims, their families, and the public at large.  The ball was dropped somewhere in a major way.  We either can't trust the police to intervene appropriately or we can't trust law enforcement to investigate appropriately.  Or both.  

 

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2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I don't know how injured, or how confused, the guard was.  That he helped the police does not necessarily prove he was not injured and confused.  

I do know -- because I remember the sheriff saying it -- that the cops did not know about the guard until they found him.  Explain that however you want.  But you don't get to assume facts not in evidence, and then conclude that the information we actually have, from the people who were there, is a lie.

To tell the truth, I've been suspicious of this guard for some time.   But I don't want to let my imagination run away with me either.  I wasn't there.  Neither were you.

And CNN just 10 minutes, when discussing the new timeline, just said "Though it's still correct the security guard alerted police."

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14 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Right.  The two police found the guard at 10:18, and the guard alerted police to the location of the shooter's room.

And where is your confirmation of this whole line of bullshit you are spinning?

From Fox News, so truly reliable, right?

Quote

At 9:59 p.m., Campos was shot in the leg after Paddock reportedly fired 200 shots into the hallway. Paddock began shooting into the crowd six minutes later, contradicting original reports that Campos’ arrival is what stopped Paddock’s mass shooting.

Between the time that Campos was shot and Paddock began shooting, Campos notified authorities of what happened, which Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Undersheriff Kevin McMahill said Friday was “absolutely critical” as it gave police Paddock’s exact location.

Lombardo said Monday that a maintenance worker was also on the 32nd floor at the time Campos was shot, and Campos prevented that man from also being shot or otherwise injured. [/quote]

As I have repeatedly said, the police went straight to the 32nd floor. How the flying fuck did they do that without being told where to go? Because the security guard REPORTED BEING SHOT.

I mean, just wtf do you think a trained security guard does? Not tell anyone about threats he's just found? Not report he's been shot?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/09/mandalay-bay-security-guard-was-shot-six-minutes-before-las-vegas-gunman-began-shooting-police-say.html

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1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Fragile Bird, stop behaving in such an ugly manner.  It is uncalled for.

However, you did provide a quote from a news source, somewhat backing one of your claims (which you could have done without the snark), The article you quote references a Friday statement by Undersheriff McMahill.  

So I traced the quote to it's source.  It evidently comes from the following news conference:

Here's a transcript of his statement regarding the security guard:

"Most of you also now know the name of the Mandalay Bay security guard who you all named in the media, and I'll just re-affirm to you that Jesus Campos is a true hero. I can tell you now, just a little bit more that I know about what he did that particular day. We now know that he was dispatched to what they call a door alarm on the 32nd floor. He went up there to investigate the open door, and as he was doing his job, diligently, he came under fire by our suspect. As you know he was struck from the leg, he turned around and retreated.  He notified his dispatch which was absolutely critical to us knowing the location, as well as advising the responding officers as they arrived on that 32nd floor. I can tell you that this was a remarkable effort by a brave and remarkable man. I want to say today that I don't think we've done enough, good enough job recognizing him and his actions, and for that apologize. I just want to take a moment and clear the record that he's an absolute hero."

However, he later gave the following information:

"REPORTER: Is it possible he was shot before Paddock would begin firing -- 
MCMAHILL: The question is was the security officer shot before the suspect was shooting into the crowd? The answer to that is yes, we believe he was shot -- I'm sorry we believe he was shooting into the crowd and then the security officer was shot during that event. "

Now this does say that Campos notified "his dispatch" and implies that this was relayed to the police.  And yes, I was unaware of this, as I had not previously listened to this update.  You might even take this as distantly implying that Campos immediately notified his dispatch (though McMahill does not actually say that).

However, his later answers indicate he still believes that Campos was shot during the period that the Paddock was shooting at the crowd.  

The police initially believed that Campos had been shot after 10:15.  So my guess would be that, if the police learned about Campos before they actually met him on the 32nd floor, this was probably not relayed to them until sometime after 10:15.  How else could they (initially) have believed he was shot after 10:15?

It was also reported, earlier, that the two officers had arrived on the 31st floor at 10:12, and were reporting that the shots seemed to be coming from above them.  This seems consistent with the idea, that at this point, they still did not know exactly where to go.

I could be wrong, of course.  But in any event, there is no basis for the belief that officers were just hanging around outside the suspect's hotel room, cowering while the suspect mowed down innocents.  That's a fantasy.

 

Frankly speaking the incredible snark you have used in this thread, making all kinds of claims without attempting to back-up any of them, eventually creates the kinds of responses you get.

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10 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I have backed up my claims.  I provided a link to the actual video of yesterday's press conference where Sheriff Lombardo confirms what he stated previously - that the police did not know the security guard had been shot until they met him in the hallway.  

Sure, I did not provide the link at first.  But if you wanted a link, all you had to do was ask for it.

 

The quote does not, at all, prove what you say it does, but goes some way to the reverse. He said that the security guard notifying dispatch was critical to knowing where the shooter was. How on earth do you construe from that that he came as a surprise to the Police?

Moreover, you keep,using straw men. FB criticized a break down in communication as incompetent, not a police force cowering in a hallway. 

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5 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

As I indicated, I was paraphrasing (not quoting) Sheriff Lombardo on Monday (which was the last link I provided). (You seem to be paraphrasing Undersheriff McMahill on Friday).

You can find the quote at around the 14:15 mark on the last link I provided. Here is the quote:

"Reporter:  When did the security guard ....  When did the police know the security guard had been shot -- before the gunshots at 10:05 p.m.?  Or only after the outer [?] shooting began?

Sheriff Lombardo:  They weren't aware that he had been shot until they met him in the hallway after exiting the elevator."

This of course repeats a similar statement from Sheriff Lombardo in a prior press conference.  But you can go find that one yourself.  

I named no names, but similar words were used by Dr. Pepper:

"Previously the police decided to wait for SWAT after they finally found where it was coming from because the shooting had stopped.  Now they are saying they decided to wait for SWAT, and continued to wait it out while someone spent 10 minutes murdering people."  

I was questioning, and FB defending, Dr. Pepper's assumptions.  That is the context of the discussion.

The whole reason for the alleged anger was that the cops either were there or should have been there.  FB has defended this proposition by directly arguing that the security guard radio'd his position right away, the 2 cops already in the hotel responded, and went directly to the 32nd floor in response to news of the shooting of the security guard.

Anyhow, it is impossible for communication to break down until communication has first been established.  FB's choice of words assumes that communication was established.

No communication is a breakdown  in communication. A security  company using the same frequencies as the police is also highly unlikely so there would not have been that kind of communication either. This was not a shining example of police procedure.

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There was a communication breakdown.  Period.  Somewhere along the way, people were not communicating appropriately and it helped murder scores of people and injure hundreds more.  Then that breakdown allowed the public to be misinformed for a week. 

Also, heard on NPR this morning that a spokesperson for the hotel said that this new timeline might not even be accurate.  Don't remember the exact phrasing.  So possible continued breakdown of communication.  

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On 10/11/2017 at 5:42 PM, Darth Richard II said:

OK I've lost track, what are we arguing about?

I guess we were arguing about whether or not there is any sort of viable conspiracy theory surrounding this shooting. Have to say that I come down on the "this was just a horrific event that is more or less beyond human comprehension". I think the fact that the shooter really doesn't seem to fit into any clean sort of mold here, and he didn't bother to leave behind a clear statement of motivation, so we have to kind of invent reasons that help fill in the narrative.

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9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

"I Went to School With the Vegas Shooter" by Greg Palast:

http://mailchi.mp/gregpalast/v3tjxbfkb4-172713?e=3aca5d2dc6

Greg thinks he may have a bit of insight into why Paddock committed such a horrific act.

 

That was either just way over my head, or categorically bizarre. This was a multi-millionaire who was pissed that he wasn't a multi-billionaire? That's what fueled this?

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Palast is speculating, but I think his view is that no amount of money could erase the experience of having grown up a "loser" in the class war -- his brilliance was subordinated to the needs of the military-industrial complex when young, and though he "got out" of the grind it couldn't make up for the opportunities he didn't have early in life, missed opportunities that he (Palast imagines) keenly felt because he was smart enough to know he could have had a better life if things were different...

People have done worse for less cause, I'll say that, but it's really just speculating based on an acquaintance some 40-odd years out of date, and I am dubious of any one pat explanation. Palast sure can paint a vivid picture, though, will give him that.

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It's part of the argument posited by so many to explain the rise of romperman and his ilks -- how much certain classes of white people are so disrespected by the elite of whatever the elite is that is attacked.

This has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with Greg's essay, just to do with why I find it of interest and of perhaps some value.

For instance I know quite a few people who have had a decent career in publishing as editors, but never had a a shot at what kind of editor of what kind of books they wanted to be, because those slots all went to people who went to private schools, and then on to the Iveys, and they, due to lack of family money and background, were not able to.  They were very bitter about this, and remain so.  They don't talk about it all the time, but it comes up in predictable contexts in conversation. In  contrast I know some people who did have the family money and background, and they just slid into these valuable, prestigious editorial slots -- and even writing columns for the NY Times, etc. -- without ever having published or edited anything in their lives.  I.e. these are valid points  to look at.

 

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1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That was either just way over my head, or categorically bizarre. This was a multi-millionaire who was pissed that he wasn't a multi-billionaire? That's what fueled this?

The author seems to be projecting quite heavily. Billions of people are oppressed by those who have more than them each and every day, yet most of them don't end up slaughtering dozens of innocent concert goers. Garbage blog post.

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