Which Tyler

Vegas Shooting

224 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I'm not saying it's not a big deal that the poor guy got shot.  I'm merely saying that the revision in timing is not something to get angry or upset about, necessarily.

Who is "they"?  AFAIK, the police knew nothing about the wounded security guard in the hallway, until the police entered that hallway, and found that wounded security guard.  The timing of what the police could or should have done remains unchanged.

It helps to get the timeline right, sure.  But it seems to me you are making questionable assumptions.

Um, :they" would be the police.  The fact that they knew nothing about a shot security guard is a huge problem.  The timing could have been very different if they'd been aware someone was shooting up a hallway a full SIX minutes before that same someone shot up a crowd.  Previously the police decided to wait for SWAT after they finally found where it was coming from because the shooting had stopped.  Now they are saying they decided to wait for SWAT, and continued to wait it out while someone spent 10 minutes murdering people.  

How the fuck are you confused by this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I'm not saying it's not a big deal that the poor guy got shot.  I'm merely saying that the revision in timing is not something to get angry or upset about, necessarily.

Who is "they"?  AFAIK, the police knew nothing about the wounded security guard in the hallway, until the police entered that hallway, and found that wounded security guard.  The timing of what the police could or should have done remains unchanged.

It helps to get the timeline right, sure.  But it seems to me you are making questionable assumptions.

Well, the security guard had a communication device of some kind, probably a walkie talkie. He reported being shot. And the news reports said the police got there so quickly because they were already in the hotel for another event. Much was made of the fact they immediately started searching for the gunman. But now it seems that the search started in response to the guard being shot. 

I don't think they could have stopped the shooter, the timing was too close. They may have gotten to the floor while he was still shooting, but the first thing they did was evacuate the floor. I bet they had no idea how devastatingly effective the gunman was. They were 33 stories up, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

 

It does not change anything.  No shooting was occurring while they waited for the SWAT team.  If he had resumed shooting, perhaps an argument could be made, in that hypothetical circumstance, that that they should have attempted some heroics at great risk to their lives.  But as long as things remained silent, their choice to wait for the SWAT team remained reasonable.

He did resume shooting.  He shot up a hallway with 200 rounds, wounding a guard in the process.  Then six minutes later he resumed shooting, this time directed at a crowd.  The waiting for SWAT seems reasonable when the story was that they were frantically searching for the room where the shooter was and that by the time they found it the shooting had stopped.  It's absolutely unreasonable now that there was this huge gap of time between initial shooting and when he resumed again.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I am not getting understanding the outrage. Are the police psychic? If no one heard or reported the security guard shooting how would they know about it? Am I missing something here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, lessthanluke said:

Yeah I am not getting understanding the outrage. Are the police psychic? If no one heard or reported the security guard shooting how would they know about it? Am I missing something here.

How can no one know that a hallway was shot up with 200 rounds?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

How can no one know that a hallway was shot up with 200 rounds?  

Was there anyone else in any of the rooms on that hallway when this happened? 

If not, I can easily see how no one would know this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Ormond said:

Was there anyone else in any of the rooms on that hallway when this happened? 

If not, I can easily see how no one would know this.

All current reports state that the security guard went to check on the hallway.  Was shot.  He then was conscious enough to prevent another worker from entering the hallway.  Meanwhile, six minutes pass and then 10 minutes of shooting started and allegedly the police couldn't find the floor where the shooter was.  Previous reports stated that they had to evacuate the floor, indicating their might have been others there. 

I can not see how no one would know there was a shot up hallway and injured guard in the hotel.  It's a massive breakdown in communication.  Did it happen with the hotel?  With the police?  With both?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Was there anyone else in any of the rooms on that hallway when this happened? 

If not, I can easily see how no one would know this.

Yes, there were, some were interviewed by CNN. They spoke about hearing shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

At some point, another employee arrived, and the wounded guard warned him/her off.  You assume this was at the beginning.  But we have no such information.  For all you know, it was 18 minutes later, just before the police arrived.  We also don't know what the other employee did after he/she was warned off.  Maybe he/she just went and hid under a bed.  Or maybe he/she tried to dial 911 on her cell phone.  If he/she did, she would likely be (by then) one of a thousand such calls that the switchboards had to process.

We have been told, however, that the police knew nothing about the wounded security guard until they found him at 10:18.

So, you are simultaneously saying 'nothing to see here' and 'we have incomplete information' and the substance of your grievance seems to be other people having a different default than you do. Can you see how that's problematic for less authoritarian posters than yourself?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

So your anger is directed at the guy lying bleeding on the ground, for not telling someone sooner?

This has been nagging at me because I knew it was wrong.

The police praised the security guard as a hero in their press conferences because EVEN THOUGH HE WAS SHOT HE HELPED THE POLICE CLEAR THE FLOOR.

He used his master key to unlock doors for the police, among other things.

I have neither seen nor heard anything about the police not knowing the security guard was on the floor.

Your whole scenario of him too stunned or unconscious to alert anyone that he was shot is something you have invented out of thin air.

 

Edited by Fragile Bird

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if the security guard had been too stunned to report in, there's still a whole lot more people in this chain of broken communication.  The security team who sent him to check, the hotel, the police, etc.  The story is very different today than the story that had been presented for the past week.  Why did it take them so long to correct the timeline?  What caused the delay and the correction?  Where did communication break down?  Did the police order a SWAT team at the first hallway shooting and they failed to update orders when the shooter resumed shooting, this time on a crowd of people? Even if their was no communication breakdown prior to the second shooting event, there was still a significant breakdown for a whole week after.  This is highly distressing to the victims, their families, and the public at large.  The ball was dropped somewhere in a major way.  We either can't trust the police to intervene appropriately or we can't trust law enforcement to investigate appropriately.  Or both.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

I don't know how injured, or how confused, the guard was.  That he helped the police does not necessarily prove he was not injured and confused.  

I do know -- because I remember the sheriff saying it -- that the cops did not know about the guard until they found him.  Explain that however you want.  But you don't get to assume facts not in evidence, and then conclude that the information we actually have, from the people who were there, is a lie.

To tell the truth, I've been suspicious of this guard for some time.   But I don't want to let my imagination run away with me either.  I wasn't there.  Neither were you.

And CNN just 10 minutes, when discussing the new timeline, just said "Though it's still correct the security guard alerted police."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

Right.  The two police found the guard at 10:18, and the guard alerted police to the location of the shooter's room.

And where is your confirmation of this whole line of bullshit you are spinning?

From Fox News, so truly reliable, right?

Quote

At 9:59 p.m., Campos was shot in the leg after Paddock reportedly fired 200 shots into the hallway. Paddock began shooting into the crowd six minutes later, contradicting original reports that Campos’ arrival is what stopped Paddock’s mass shooting.

Between the time that Campos was shot and Paddock began shooting, Campos notified authorities of what happened, which Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department Undersheriff Kevin McMahill said Friday was “absolutely critical” as it gave police Paddock’s exact location.

Lombardo said Monday that a maintenance worker was also on the 32nd floor at the time Campos was shot, and Campos prevented that man from also being shot or otherwise injured. [/quote]

As I have repeatedly said, the police went straight to the 32nd floor. How the flying fuck did they do that without being told where to go? Because the security guard REPORTED BEING SHOT.

I mean, just wtf do you think a trained security guard does? Not tell anyone about threats he's just found? Not report he's been shot?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/09/mandalay-bay-security-guard-was-shot-six-minutes-before-las-vegas-gunman-began-shooting-police-say.html

Edited by Fragile Bird

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lew Theobald said:

Fragile Bird, stop behaving in such an ugly manner.  It is uncalled for.

However, you did provide a quote from a news source, somewhat backing one of your claims (which you could have done without the snark), The article you quote references a Friday statement by Undersheriff McMahill.  

So I traced the quote to it's source.  It evidently comes from the following news conference:

Here's a transcript of his statement regarding the security guard:

"Most of you also now know the name of the Mandalay Bay security guard who you all named in the media, and I'll just re-affirm to you that Jesus Campos is a true hero. I can tell you now, just a little bit more that I know about what he did that particular day. We now know that he was dispatched to what they call a door alarm on the 32nd floor. He went up there to investigate the open door, and as he was doing his job, diligently, he came under fire by our suspect. As you know he was struck from the leg, he turned around and retreated.  He notified his dispatch which was absolutely critical to us knowing the location, as well as advising the responding officers as they arrived on that 32nd floor. I can tell you that this was a remarkable effort by a brave and remarkable man. I want to say today that I don't think we've done enough, good enough job recognizing him and his actions, and for that apologize. I just want to take a moment and clear the record that he's an absolute hero."

However, he later gave the following information:

"REPORTER: Is it possible he was shot before Paddock would begin firing -- 
MCMAHILL: The question is was the security officer shot before the suspect was shooting into the crowd? The answer to that is yes, we believe he was shot -- I'm sorry we believe he was shooting into the crowd and then the security officer was shot during that event. "

Now this does say that Campos notified "his dispatch" and implies that this was relayed to the police.  And yes, I was unaware of this, as I had not previously listened to this update.  You might even take this as distantly implying that Campos immediately notified his dispatch (though McMahill does not actually say that).

However, his later answers indicate he still believes that Campos was shot during the period that the Paddock was shooting at the crowd.  

The police initially believed that Campos had been shot after 10:15.  So my guess would be that, if the police learned about Campos before they actually met him on the 32nd floor, this was probably not relayed to them until sometime after 10:15.  How else could they (initially) have believed he was shot after 10:15?

It was also reported, earlier, that the two officers had arrived on the 31st floor at 10:12, and were reporting that the shots seemed to be coming from above them.  This seems consistent with the idea, that at this point, they still did not know exactly where to go.

I could be wrong, of course.  But in any event, there is no basis for the belief that officers were just hanging around outside the suspect's hotel room, cowering while the suspect mowed down innocents.  That's a fantasy.

 

Frankly speaking the incredible snark you have used in this thread, making all kinds of claims without attempting to back-up any of them, eventually creates the kinds of responses you get.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Time to chill out, folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lew Theobald said:

I have backed up my claims.  I provided a link to the actual video of yesterday's press conference where Sheriff Lombardo confirms what he stated previously - that the police did not know the security guard had been shot until they met him in the hallway.  

Sure, I did not provide the link at first.  But if you wanted a link, all you had to do was ask for it.

 

The quote does not, at all, prove what you say it does, but goes some way to the reverse. He said that the security guard notifying dispatch was critical to knowing where the shooter was. How on earth do you construe from that that he came as a surprise to the Police?

Moreover, you keep,using straw men. FB criticized a break down in communication as incompetent, not a police force cowering in a hallway. 

Edited by James Arryn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lew Theobald said:

As I indicated, I was paraphrasing (not quoting) Sheriff Lombardo on Monday (which was the last link I provided). (You seem to be paraphrasing Undersheriff McMahill on Friday).

You can find the quote at around the 14:15 mark on the last link I provided. Here is the quote:

"Reporter:  When did the security guard ....  When did the police know the security guard had been shot -- before the gunshots at 10:05 p.m.?  Or only after the outer [?] shooting began?

Sheriff Lombardo:  They weren't aware that he had been shot until they met him in the hallway after exiting the elevator."

This of course repeats a similar statement from Sheriff Lombardo in a prior press conference.  But you can go find that one yourself.  

I named no names, but similar words were used by Dr. Pepper:

"Previously the police decided to wait for SWAT after they finally found where it was coming from because the shooting had stopped.  Now they are saying they decided to wait for SWAT, and continued to wait it out while someone spent 10 minutes murdering people."  

I was questioning, and FB defending, Dr. Pepper's assumptions.  That is the context of the discussion.

The whole reason for the alleged anger was that the cops either were there or should have been there.  FB has defended this proposition by directly arguing that the security guard radio'd his position right away, the 2 cops already in the hotel responded, and went directly to the 32nd floor in response to news of the shooting of the security guard.

Anyhow, it is impossible for communication to break down until communication has first been established.  FB's choice of words assumes that communication was established.

No communication is a breakdown  in communication. A security  company using the same frequencies as the police is also highly unlikely so there would not have been that kind of communication either. This was not a shining example of police procedure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a communication breakdown.  Period.  Somewhere along the way, people were not communicating appropriately and it helped murder scores of people and injure hundreds more.  Then that breakdown allowed the public to be misinformed for a week. 

Also, heard on NPR this morning that a spokesperson for the hotel said that this new timeline might not even be accurate.  Don't remember the exact phrasing.  So possible continued breakdown of communication.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stop with the troll accusations. Feel free to ignore someone or to take discussion to PM if you're so absorbed responding tit-for-tat, folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now