Tijgy Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Apparently the representative of Government of Catalonia to the EU, Amadeo Altafay, did ask last sunday noon the cabinet of Juncker that Juncker would ask the Spanish Government to stop the police violence. And the answer was negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inquisitor Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 4 minutes ago, Tijgy said: Apparently the representative of Government of Catalonia to the EU, Amadeo Altafay, did ask last sunday noon the cabinet of Juncker that Juncker would ask the Spanish Government to stop the police violence. And the answer was negative. That would be basically because nor the EU, nor anyone with grey matter between his ears understands or claims that Spain is a repressive State that sponsors state terrorism as some of the geniuses that have participated in this thread have stated or implied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Anyone who thinks Spain should rightly have Gibraltar isn't really worth listening to on subjects of nationhood and national politics, are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 Just now, Tijgy said: Apparently the representative of Government of Catalonia to the EU, Amadeo Altafay, did ask last sunday noon the cabinet of Juncker that Juncker would ask the Spanish Government to stop the police violence. And the answer was negative. just wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich II Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 This is a Spanish issue, why should the EU get involved in domestic quarrels of its member state? Catalonia is only part of the EU because it is part of Spain. Today it's the Catalan government that wants the EU to help them leave the EU in an anti-constitutional manner. Tomorrow its the Sardinian, the Corsican, the Alsacian and Frisian and Tyrolian Independists that try to use the EU for their agenda. As Catalan Government you have to be really naive or divorced from political reality to believe you could anything but a negative answer from the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 11 minutes ago, Alarich II said: why should the EU get involved in domestic quarrels of its member state? If the EU feel that Spain are breaking their standards over state overreach and abuse of power then they absolutely should get involved. Like they have in Poland although that's not been a brutality issue but one of actual laws being enacted. You seem to be misunderstanding the complaint here, the issue isn't that the government moved to invalidate the vote but the manner in which they did so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich II Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 The issue was "police violence" and obviously the EU is not going to dictate the Spanish government how to deal with an illegal referendum as long as no continuing and systematic abuse of citizen rights takes place. Citizens of Spain still have full legal recourse, so that's where you go to when you feel that your rights are violated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 27 minutes ago, Alarich II said: The issue was "police violence" and obviously the EU is not going to dictate the Spanish government how to deal with an illegal referendum as long as no continuing and systematic abuse of citizen rights takes place. Citizens of Spain still have full legal recourse, so that's where you go to when you feel that your rights are violated. The Prosecutor's office said that it only affected 0.037% of the population, so the Police has not to be blamed. Only individual actions can be investigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 19 hours ago, Tijgy said: The problem is that there isn't such a golden rule. When Kosovo declared themselves independent in 2008, several countries actually recognized it very soon. And the International Court of Justice said international law contains no prohibition on declarations of independence - which in fact is a precedent. You are a state when you are recognized by the rest of the world as a state. And countries doesn't really look at international rules. They think what is the most interesting for themselves, and they adjust the international rules to argument their case. For example: Kosovo isn't recognized as a state by Russia, but Russia invokes the precedent of Kosovo to declare the referendum of Crimea valid. I'm not sure I share your cynical view of international politics (except where Russia is involved :P)... Kosovo is an interesting example of unilateral declaration of independence. I'm extremely ignorant about it, though (I just read the wikipedia article, but that's the full extent of my knowledge). It did, apparently, take a civil war, a purported genocide, several high-ranking Yugoslav officials (including the president) accused of crimes against humanity, etc to get there. They seem to be doing pretty well since 2008, though. Good for them. 14 hours ago, polishgenius said: Anyone who thinks Spain should rightly have Gibraltar isn't really worth listening to on subjects of nationhood and national politics, are they? Quite frankly, I think Gibraltar should be returned to Spain (and Ceuta and Melilla to Morocco, while we're at it). These city-sized morsels of land in what is pretty clearly another country's territory bring nothing but trouble, and the justifications for them are extremely dated and unconvincing. I'm sympathetic to the people living there, but in all honesty they'd be no worse off than all the British expats living in Majorca or Benidorm if Gibraltar became Spanish. That said, this is a derail, so you might want to open a new thread if you really want to discuss Gibraltar. 10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: The Prosecutor's office said that it only affected 0.037% of the population, so the Police has not to be blamed. Only individual actions can be investigated. Is there a precedent for the Police as a whole being blamed for an incident? (as opposed to the individual agents responsible for specific beatings/aggressions). I'd be interested to know. That said, lots of the Catalans who were wounded on the 1-O have indeed filed criminal complaints and they will be examined by a judge (as they should). The police as a whole might not be held to account, but any law officer who hit an unarmed civilian should face the consequences of his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loge Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Mentat said: Is there a precedent for the Police as a whole being blamed for an incident? (as opposed to the individual agents responsible for specific beatings/aggressions). I'd be interested to know. That said, lots of the Catalans who were wounded on the 1-O have indeed filed criminal complaints and they will be examined by a judge (as they should). The police as a whole might not be held to account, but any law officer who hit an unarmed civilian should face the consequences of his actions. Going after individual officers won't get you anywhere, as you won't be able to identify them. You have to look higher up the chain of command to find the real culprits, anyway. Somebody ordered this operation and somebody was in charge when it was carried out. Those persons should to be held responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 13 hours ago, Alarich II said: This is a Spanish issue, why should the EU get involved in domestic quarrels of its member state? Catalonia is only part of the EU because it is part of Spain. Today it's the Catalan government that wants the EU to help them leave the EU in an anti-constitutional manner. Tomorrow its the Sardinian, the Corsican, the Alsacian and Frisian and Tyrolian Independists that try to use the EU for their agenda. As Catalan Government you have to be really naive or divorced from political reality to believe you could anything but a negative answer from the EU. What does this have to do with: 17 hours ago, Tijgy said: Apparently the representative of Government of Catalonia to the EU, Amadeo Altafay, did ask last sunday noon the cabinet of Juncker that Juncker would ask the Spanish Government to stop the police violence. And the answer was negative. "Help us stop police violence" is not the same as "help us get independence". 1 hour ago, Mentat said: Kosovo is an interesting example of unilateral declaration of independence. I'm extremely ignorant about it, though (I just read the wikipedia article, but that's the full extent of my knowledge). It did, apparently, take a civil war, a purported genocide, several high-ranking Yugoslav officials (including the president) accused of crimes against humanity, etc to get there. They seem to be doing pretty well since 2008, though. Good for them. There was no civil war, because there was no official army involved other than Yugoslav army. Kosovo Liberation Army was a paramilitary organization that one side considers terrorists and the other side saw as freedom fighters. Bottom line is, until NATO stepped in Kosovo was an internal matter of Yugoslavia. Though there definitely was some wrongdoing from Yugoslav armed forces, claims of genocide are laughable. Either way, I wish every genocide in the world was as "successful" as the one Yugoslavia supposedly performed against Albanian population in Kosovo that resulted in Kosovo population now being almost 100% Albanian. Several of high ranking Kosovo officials were accused of crimes against humanity as well, though they were released on ground of witnesses suddenly changing their statements and/or disappearing. By the way, most of those Yugoslav officials were not found guilty either, though they did stand trial and some of them spent over 10 years in detention while their trials were being prepared and while they were ongoing. Hague tribunal is a joke and has gloriously failed to punish most of the atrocities committed by ALL sides in Balkan conflicts of the '90s. Sorry to say this, but saying that Kosovo is doing pretty well does prove that you are rather ignorant about the situation. They have a significant emigration rates because of poor economic situation and crime is rampant (drug trafficking, mostly). They are no better off than other countries in the region, and are quite worse off in some matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 14 minutes ago, Loge said: Going after individual officers won't get you anywhere, as you won't be able to identify them. You have to look higher up the chain of command to find the real culprits, anyway. Somebody ordered this operation and somebody was in charge when it was carried out. Those persons should to be held responsible. At the end of the day you kind of have to, though. You might be able to get a civil compensation from the state, but unless someone higher up in the chain of command gave some very irregular rules of engagement in writing (highly unlikely), you pretty much have to go for individual police officers. In democratic countries they're required to have some sort of visible identification (usually a badge number), and with everyone taking photos and videos with mobile phones it's normally feasible to identify the perpetrator some of the time (obviously not always). 6 minutes ago, baxus said: Sorry to say this, but saying that Kosovo is doing pretty well does prove that you are rather ignorant about the situation. They have a significant emigration rates because of poor economic situation and crime is rampant (drug trafficking, mostly). They are no better off than other countries in the region, and are quite worse off in some matters. Don't be sorry, I am indeed very ignorant about the Balkans. I read on wikipedia that their economy was growing steadily since independence. That's the full extent of my knowledge. If you say they're doing rather poorly, I'm happy to take your word for it (their economy probably plummeted from 1998 to 2008, and whatever rate of growth there has been has not been able to make up for it, or else wikipedia is just wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baxus Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Mentat said: Don't be sorry, I am indeed very ignorant about the Balkans. I read on wikipedia that their economy was growing steadily since independence. That's the full extent of my knowledge. If you say they're doing rather poorly, I'm happy to take your word for it (their economy probably plummeted from 1998 to 2008, and whatever rate of growth there has been has not been able to make up for it, or else wikipedia is just wrong). The whole region is struggling economically, so Kosovo is no exception. Serbia, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina are all not doing that well either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alarich II Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 minutes ago, baxus said: "Help us stop police violence" is not the same as "help us get independence". No, but it is part of the domestic quarrels: Of course the Catalan government would like the EU to take sides, because so far they have no international support, apart from fringe independist movements in other European regions. It would make the story more compelling. We should not fool ourselves: both the Catalan government and the Spanish central government are trying to spin the public discourse to get better political leverage. So of course this is a move to get the EU involved on behalf of the Catalan government whose primary goal is independence. Madrid otoh is firmly maintaining that this is a domestic issue - the position is understandable from a political pov, because they want to play it down and discredit the perhaps legitmate questions around the whole independence issue. But as long as the memberstates don't recognize Catalonia, the EU has no reason at all to challenge that position. And the memberstates have no reason at all to piss of Spain by recognizing Catalonia. So the political reality is: Catalonia doesn't have an ally in the EU. I do think btw. that a total neutrality by the EU would also be problematic: because the independence issue concerns not only other member states with Catalan populations as well (France, Italy), but also EU citizens in Catalonia, (Catalans and others) who - as EU citizens - enjoy certain rights with in the EU will lose those rights in an independent, non-EU Catalonia. So EU should be interested in keeping the EU together and not have territories splintering off left and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tijgy Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 The Council of Europe has spoken too: 1° Human Rights Commissioner calls on Spain to investigate allegations of disproportionate use of police force in Catalonia Today, the Commissioner for Human Rights Nils Muižnieks published a letter sent on 4 October to Mr Juan Ignacio Zoido Álvarez, Minister of the Interior of Spain, in which he raises concerns regarding allegations of disproportionate use of force by law enforcement authorities in Catalonia on 1 October 2017. “The Spanish authorities should ensure that swift, independent and effective investigations are carried out into all allegations of police misconduct and disproportionate use of force. This is of fundamental importance, both for deterring any further police misconduct but also to prevent any escalation of tensions and violence. In addition, ensuring accountability for any misconduct is essential to preserve public confidence in the work of law enforcement officials”, writes Commissioner Muižnieks. In this context, the Commissioner reiterates his recommendation to establish an independent complaints mechanism covering all law enforcement officials, either by enlarging the competencies of the national Ombudsman or by setting up a new body. https://www.coe.int/en/web/portal/-/human-rights-commissioner-calls-on-spain-to-investigate-allegations-of-disproportionate-use-of-police-force-in-catalonia (There is a link to the letter of the Commissioner and the reply of the Minister of Interior). 2° Spokesperson of the Secretary General: Meeting between Secretary General Jagland and the Foreign Minister of Spain, Alfonso Dastis Quecedo The Secretary General of the Council of Europe, Thorbjørn Jagland, today met with the Spanish Minister for Foreign Affairs and Co-operation, Alfonso Dastis Quecedo for a detailed and comprehensive exchange regarding the situation in Catalonia. The Secretary General emphasised the importance of the unity of Spain. He underlined that the internal dialogue should be based on the rule of law and constitutional principles. Jagland welcomed that Spain will conduct an investigation of clashes with police in Catalonia, which was confirmed by the Minister. The Secretary General expressed the hope that, given time for dialogue, a solution could be found https://www.coe.int/fr/web/secretary-general/-/spokesperson-of-the-secretary-general-meeting-between-secretary-general-jagland-and-the-foreign-minister-of-spain-alfonso-dastis-quecedo 10 hours ago, Mentat said: I'm not sure I share your cynical view of international politics (except where Russia is involved :P)... I have very cynical of international, European and federal politics . That happens when you live in Belgium, especially if you hear that the European form of political dialogue should be based upon the Belgian form (looking for consensus) . My country has been dialoguing herself to the death. And we hold the world record for having the longest time no government. . The only level of which I don't have a cynical view, is the local one. My mayor is awesome, one of the best mayors of the world, and did some very amazing work to my city the last seventeen years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 10 hours ago, Alarich II said: I do think btw. that a total neutrality by the EU would also be problematic: because the independence issue concerns not only other member states with Catalan populations as well (France, Italy), but also EU citizens in Catalonia, (Catalans and others) who - as EU citizens - enjoy certain rights with in the EU will lose those rights in an independent, non-EU Catalonia. So EU should be interested in keeping the EU together and not have territories splintering off left and right. As for the EU citizen rights Catalans won't lose these rights if Catalonia becomes independent since They will still be Spanish unless they decide to only be Catalan. They'd lose the ones that are linked to the country which will no longer be part of the EU, aparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Rajoy's party PP (Casado, vicesecretary of Communication) warned Puigdemont today that he could end up like Companys, the Catalan President of 1934, who proclaimed the "Catalan State within the Spanish Federal Republic", and that caused him to go to jail. However, Companys was executed in 1940. The PP had to clarify, later, that he was not referring to "execution". [More info on the same statement from the Guardian] Spoiler https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/09/catalonia-president-to-bring-crisis-to-head-in-parliament Casado also went on to compare Puigdemont to the former Catalan president Lluís Companys, who was jailed after declaring a Catalan republic in 1934. Companys, who was exiled in France after the Spanish civil war, was later extradited by the Nazi authorities and shot dead by a Francoist firing squad in 1940. Noting the recent 83rd anniversary of Companys’ declaration, Casado said: “Let’s hope nothing’s declared tomorrow otherwise whoever declares it could end up like the one who declared it 83 years ago.” Casado later explained that he had been referring to Companys’ imprisonment rather than his execution. Nevertheless, the comparison was swiftly attacked. Pablo Iglesias, leader of Spain’s anti-austerity Podemos party, tweeted: “Casado says Puigdemont could end up like Companys, who was tortured and shot. He’s either stupid or an irresponsible troublemaker.” And...finally, Some other pearls from Rajoy's party (today): -Spain is the most decentralised country in the World -Nationalism is the most sinister ideology that humanity has had -Casado wants to illegalize the independentist parties (as it was outlawed in the Law of Matches to the formations that did not condemn the violence in the Basque Country), apparently they are the same? The chief of the Catalan Police might also go to jail 15-25 years for having been too "soft". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: As for the EU citizen rights Catalans won't lose these rights if Catalonia becomes independent since They will still be Spanish unless they decide to only be Catalan. How does that work ? Won't they loose spanish citizenship through declaration and have to regain them through Spain ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meera of Tarth Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 On 10/10/2017 at 0:23 AM, SirArthur said: How does that work ? Won't they loose spanish citizenship through declaration and have to regain them through Spain ? No, the Spanish nationality can't be lost, unless once being Catalan, they decide to be only Catalan (instead of having the two nationalities). Rajoy was a bit confused with this issue in 2014 just before the non-binding referendum, during a radio interview and the commentator had to clarify it for him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBRSry3uwk Transcription, translated: Rajoy: A Catalan is Catalan, Spanish and European (referring to the EU). What some people (Cat. Gov) want to ask people is that they give up being Spanish and European. It's a crazy idea. And their rights as Spaniards and Europeans, why do they have to lose them? This goes against modern times... This is what we are trying to defend... Interviewer: But the Spanish nationality (in this sceneario of the independency of Catalonia), they'd not lose it, the Spanish nationality (the Catalan citizens).... Rajoy: Ah, no...I don't know. I mean, why wouldn't they lose it? And they wouldn't lose the European, either? Interviewer: Because the law says that the citizen of Spanish Origins, bornt in Spain doesn't lose the nationality even if they live in a foreign country if they express the will to maintain it. Rajoy: Well....eh....and the European? Interviewer: And they have the European because they have the Spanish one. Rajoy: I think we are in a disquisition that leads to nowhere. note: Rajoy studied Law... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inquisitor Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said: -Spain is the most decentralised country in the World Because I suspect Spain is not a highly decentralized country, now is it not? Well perhaps you can clarify your position with another enlightened "essay" of yours. Don't forget to use wikipedia as a "source". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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