Catalun independence vote

[Mentat]

12 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I have very cynical of international, European and federal politics . That happens when you live in Belgium, especially if you hear that the European form of political dialogue should be based upon the Belgian form (looking for consensus) . My country has been dialoguing herself to the death. And we hold the world record for having the longest time no government.  

. The only level of which I don't have a cynical view, is the local one. My mayor is awesome, one of the best mayors of the world, and did some very amazing work to my city  the last seventeen years.  

You're very well informed about Spanish and Catalan affairs for a Belgian. Congratulations!

I'm glad you like your mayor. A good mayor can do a lot for a town. Local politics is actually my livelihood (I'm a city clerk of sorts), so I work very closely with mayors. In Spain local governments have quite a lot of berth in how they manage local affairs and quite a few devolved attributions (decentralisation doesn't and shouldn't stop at the regional level!), so it's a fun job.

7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, the Spanish nationality can't be lost, unless once being Catalan, they decide to be only Catalan (instead of having the two nationalities).

This is correct, but a Catalan independence would still affect EU citizens and Spaniards living in Catalonia negatively. They'd go to bed in the EU and wake up outside the Schengen zone! The newly born Catalan republic would have to decide on their own immigration laws and on what rights foreigners living in their soil would have. Even if they're generous (and the Catalans do tend to be quite welcoming to immigrants), it wouldn't be the same.

10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Rajoy's party PP (Casado, vicesecretary of Communication) warned Puigdemont today  that he could end up like Companys, the Catalan President of 1934, who proclaimed the "Catalan State within the Spanish Federal Republic", and that caused him to go to jail.  However, Companys was executed in 1940. The PP had to clarify, later, that he was not referring to "execution".

I heard Casado's statement on the radio and was utterly appalled. What a contemptible mixture of stupidity and callousness! He probably learnt his communication abilities by listening to Federico Jimenez Losantos. What an imbecile.

[baxus]

16 hours ago, SirArthur said:

How does that work ? Won't they loose spanish citizenship through declaration and have to regain them through Spain ?

I'm no expert on law, but I don't think your citizenship can be taken away.

There probably are some cases when that would be possible, like high treason or something like that. I'd say it's highly unlikely that Spanish government would accuse million of Catalan people of high treason, arrest every one of them that sets foot in Spain and hold trials for each of them.

15 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

No, the Spanish nationality can't be lost, unless once being Catalan, they decide to be only Catalan (instead of having the two nationalities).

Your nationality citizenship can't be taken from you, but there are countries that don't allow dual citizenship.

If Catalonia would decide against allowing dual citizenship, people would have to renounce their Spanish citizenship (or any other they may have) in order to obtain Catalan citizenship.

There are alway ways around that, of course. For example, Montenegro doesn't allow dual citizenships but I know a lot of people with dual Serbian-Montenegrin citizenships. I guess Serbian authorities don't forward some paperwork to their Montenegrin counterparts so people get to keep both citizenships or something.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, baxus said:

Your nationality can't be taken from you, but there are countries that don't allow dual citizenship.

We will see if nationality equals citizenship and if the citizenship is not taken away but replaced. And above all the spanish authorities still have to create the passports. 

[Tijgy]

3 hours ago, Mentat said:

You're very well informed about Spanish and Catalan affairs for a Belgian. Congratulations!

The whole debate really lives in here Flanders. So it isn't that very extraordinary. I don't agree a lot with The Inquisitior. I will agree with him there a lot of other separatist/independentist movements in Flanders who are using this for their own political reasons. When a certain party puts his own demands for more regional autonomy aside for power, it is kind of very annoying if it's members is now protesting for a free independent Catalonia in Barcelona  .  

Last week we had each one debate/interview (and most the time more than one) on our national broadcast (or at least the Flemish one).   

Meera of Tarth also told me a lot about the subject. 

I am not that informed about the entire Spanish politics - which is more than just the issue of Catalan Independence. Or at least I hope so. 

[Mentat]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

I am not that informed about the entire Spanish politics - which is more than just the issue of Catalan Independence. Or at least I hope so. 

Normally, yes. Nowadays... not really.

[Meera of Tarth]

The Catalan Gov said they would permit having the two nationalities.  

[Meera of Tarth]

In one hour .. Puigdemont will say something.

[baxus]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

We will see if nationality equals citizenship and if the citizenship is not taken away but replaced. And above all the spanish authorities still have to create the passports. 

I meant citizenship, sorry. I edited the mistake in my previous post.

As far as I know, your citizenship can't be taken from you except under some very specific circumstances, such as high treason etc.

Why would Spanish authorities have to create the passports for Catalan citizens in the hypothetical case we're talking about here (Catalonia being an independent country, hence the whole dual citizenship debate)?

[SirArthur]

2 minutes ago, baxus said:

Why would Spanish authorities have to create the passports for Catalan citizens in the hypothetical case we're talking about here (Catalonia being an independent country, hence the whole dual citizenship debate)?

Because a spanish citizen needs a passport from Spain ? I really don't understand the question.

[Tijgy]

13 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

In onet hour .. Puigdemont will say something.

And he might get arrested according to our media by the Spanish Police. 

[Alarich II]

20 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As for the EU citizen rights Catalans won't lose these rights if Catalonia becomes independent since They will still be Spanish unless they decide to only be Catalan. They'd lose the ones that are linked to the country which will no longer be part of the EU, aparently.

There are many rights that are touched from the EU perspective: First of all the 4 EU freedoms (free movement of persons, capital, goods and services) do not apply to Catalonia, once they leave the EU. So if. for example I have a small Company that sells stuff out of Barcelona into the whole EU, I will now have to deal with tariffs and customs and of course I have to deal with currency exchange. If I have bought a house (as EU citizen) in Catalonia as my old age retreat I may have problems getting my pensions paid out there. If live in France and work in Spain, now Catalonia, I don't even know if this will be possible in the future (and vice versa).

I mean what is the advantage of having an independent Catalan state or Catalan citizenship if most, if not all, freedoms within Europe are tied to having a second (Spanish) passport? Even if we assume that Spain would allow dual nationality for the first generation (second would already be problematic), it seems to me that for most Catalans it would make little sense to give up their Spanish passports which makes me wonder what makes independence so attractive in the first place?

[baxus]

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Because a spanish citizen needs a passport from Spain ? I really don't understand the question.

And why wouldn't Spain issue a passport to a Spanish citizen?

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Alarich II said:

There are many rights that are touched from the EU perspective: First of all the 4 EU freedoms (free movement of persons, capital, goods and services) do not apply to Catalonia, once they leave the EU. So if. for example I have a small Company that sells stuff out of Barcelona into the whole EU, I will now have to deal with tariffs and customs and of course I have to deal with currency exchange. If I have bought a house (as EU citizen) in Catalonia as my old age retreat I may have problems getting my pensions paid out there. If live in France and work in Spain, now Catalonia, I don't even know if this will be possible in the future (and vice versa).

I mean what is the advantage of having an independent Catalan state or Catalan citizenship if most, if not all, freedoms within Europe are tied to having a second (Spanish) passport? Even if we assume that Spain would allow dual nationality for the first generation (second would already be problematic), it seems to me that for most Catalans it would make little sense to give up their Spanish passports which makes me wonder what makes independence so attractive in the first place?

I don't think there are advantages in thr short and mid term due to the way economics and politics work. (this in terms of thr new State). But as Catalonia is economically viable, there would be advantages in thr long term. As a whole, everythibg is ubcertain and I coulf be wrong in the mid and long term consequences. It could br even better or even worse. Uncertain.

as for the nationalities.....Some Cataland might want to lose it because their feelings arr very strong, and dont want to hold the Spanish nationality even if it is evrn morr disadvantageous for them.

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Tijgy said:

And he might get arrested according to our media by the Spanish Police. 

the Parliament session is taking placr now.

[Tijgy]

@Meera of Tarth

Did he or didn't he declare Catalonia now independence? I have a newspaper saying he didn't yet and I have one saying yes? 

[Meera of Tarth]

Just now, Tijgy said:

@Meera of Tarth

Did he or didn't he declare Catalonia now independence? I have a newspaper saying he didn't yet and I have one saying yes? 

yes. Catalonia has been declared independent and this declaration has also been suspended asking for dialogue

[Meera of Tarth]

He said declaration and also suspension of thr declaration asking for dialogue.

Together for thr Yes and CUP will be signing the document now.

[Meera of Tarth]

deleted.

[Meera of Tarth]

the suspension of the effects of this declaration in order to start dialogue in the next few weeks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/10/catalan-government-suspends-declaration-of-independence

 

[maarsen]

4 hours ago, Tijgy said:

@Meera of Tarth

Did he or didn't he declare Catalonia now independence? I have a newspaper saying he didn't yet and I have one saying yes? 

Ever hear of the phrase sovereignty-association? We had that in Canada during the run up to a vote for an independent Quebec. If the referendum was passed, Quebec would be sovereign but still part of the Canadian federation.