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Catalun independence vote


DireWolfSpirit

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1 hour ago, baxus said:

It definitely sounds scary. The moment when military is even considered in the context of acting against general population is not as far from that becoming a reality as we'd like to think. Once again, I've lived through a similar situation though I was just a kid at the time.

As for armed forces on the streets of your cities, I hope no one ever gets to experience it. I had that misfortune for a couple of months in 2003, when our prime minister was assassinated and country was on red alert. I was a bit older then, and going to university and about the city with police officers armed with automatic weapons snd SWAT vehicles zooming around the city at every corner was scary as hell. I can only assume it would've been even worse if it was military.

Yes exactly. I have similar feelings when i see pplice with large weapons for preventive issues (terrorist alert) and it has an impact on me. .the thing is seeing the army in the streets is not gonna make things better for everyday's prople considering we are talking about political issues.

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And there is a start of a diplomatic fight: 

The Belgian ambassador in Madrid has received a number of angry emails from circles close to the Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy. In Spanish government circles there is scant understanding for the Belgian premier's attitude to the stand-off between Madrid and Barcelona and the Catalans efforts to secure independence.

Belgian Premier Charles Michel was one of the first to condemn the violence that accompanied the Catalan vote on independence. At the weekend Mr Michel spoke out in the daily Le Soir urging Spain and Catalonia to halt what he described as a "War of Nerves". The pronouncements did not receive a warm welcome in Madrid triggering the unpleasant emails that express stupefaction at Mr Michel's words.

Belgian Premier Charles Michel has been keen to play down speculation about a rift with Madrid suggesting that an erroneous interpretation may have been given to his words in Spain: “PM Rajoy has my phone number. He can always reach me!”

Mr Michel and Sr Rajoy are both attending the EU summit in Brussels today. It remains to be seen whether any differences will surface publicly. No official meeting is planned but Mr Michel would not rule out the two leaders speaking informally. Madrid has reportedly also withdrawn its support for a top Belgian police woman aiming to become the new head of Europol. PM Michel has been keen to talk up Catherine De Bolle’s chances suggesting that he couldn’t imagine that a prestigious country like Spain would stoop to such tactics.

Mr Michel can count on support for his stand in cabinet. Belgian interior minister Jan Jambon, a Flemish nationalist says: "He's doing what others should: condemning the Spaniards on account of the police violence on the day. It's a good thing that our PM is saying how things are."

Deputy Premier Alexander De Croo, a Flemish liberal shares this view: "The way that the Spaniards dealt with the referendum is unacceptable. This is the result of an unrestrained nationalism on both sides. Our reaction was the right one.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/1.3084162

This is one of the few times I actually feel a little proud of my little country. :wub: 

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1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

This is one of the few times I actually feel a little proud of my little country. :wub: 

Sadly, nowadays it's really admirable when ethical principles get in the way of realpolitik. You have reason to be proud! :)

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17 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

As this thread hasn't been active for almost a week, the story has moved on, as Rajoy's deadline to clarify whether they were declaring independence had passed with no answer, Spain have begun steps to suspend their autonomy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41678086

None of what's happened in the last week is truly surprising (with the possible exception of the leaders of two pro-independence civil associations being denied bail, which the Catalans are understandably furious about).

No one has budged an inch from their positions (Rajoy told Puigdemont he wouldn't intervene Catalan autonomy if Puigdemont summoned elections, but he declined). The intervention of Catalan autonomy will probably take about a month (it has to go through the Spanish Senate, and a number of days must be given to Puigdemont to argue his case in writing). Meanwhile, we can probably expect Catalan parliament formally declaring independence, though with little international support or recognition.

The main Spanish right-wing and left-wing parties seem to have agreed on the suspension of Catalan autonomy provided it's minimal. It will probably only be used to force regional elections on the Catalan parliament (which will probably be seen as illegitimate by Catalans) and to take control of the regional police force.

Spanish media has been using the expression 'a train crash' for quite a while. Seems apt.

 

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On 20/10/2017 at 8:46 AM, Tijgy said:

And now Putin did what everyone know he would so: calling the EU out for their hypocrisy (Catalonia vs. Kosovo). 

I saw that, surreal...(he is acting on his benefits as well, though-in geopolitical terms).

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News

155 will be applied: Government members will be suspended. New Government designated by the Senate, who will take control to rule Catalonia. New elections in a maximum of 6 months.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/21/catalonai-crisis-spain-rajoy-direct-rule

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On 10/20/2017 at 8:46 AM, Tijgy said:

And now Putin did what everyone know he would so: calling the EU out for their hypocrisy (Catalonia vs. Kosovo). 

It is hilarious. He is not wrong, EU's response to Serbian authorities reeks of hypocrisy, but that doesn't wash away Putin's hypocrisy with regard to Crimea. That is why Kosovo should have never happened. Good luck to all parties who believe that this is not just tip of the iceberg. 

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43 minutes ago, Risto said:

It is hilarious. He is not wrong, EU's response to Serbian authorities reeks of hypocrisy, but that doesn't wash away Putin's hypocrisy with regard to Crimea. That is why Kosovo should have never happened. Good luck to all parties who believe that this is not just tip of the iceberg. 

Kosovo is a tricky one for sure, but there is the little fact of atrocities and ethnic cleansing of villages taking place even before NATO got involved (never even mind the large-scale ethnic cleansing that errupted after that point). I don't seem to recall anything like that happening in Crimea or Catalonia...

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do agree that the Spanish government has completely mishandled the situation. But while the Kosovo intervention is/was controversial, at least there is an argument to be made under the Responsibility to Protect doctrine, which is neither the case for the Crimea nor Catalonia.

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27 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Kosovo is a tricky one for sure, but there is the little fact of atrocities and ethnic cleansing of villages taking place even before NATO got involved (never even mind the large-scale ethnic cleansing that errupted after that point). I don't seem to recall anything like that happening in Crimea or Catalonia...

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I do agree that the Spanish government has completely mishandled the situation. But while the Kosovo intervention is/was controversial, at least there is an argument to be made under the Responsibility to Protect doctrine, which is neither the case for the Crimea nor Catalonia.

That is all nice and dandy if not for the greatest ethical cleansing in modern Europe. Where were the NATO forces when 200k of innocent people fled their homes, as they (rightfully) had no guarantees their lives and property will be protected by the rampaging. Where was "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine when people fled and graveyards all over Kosovo was desecrated and destroyed? Or when the churches from 13,14,15th century burned? How many villages were ethnically cleansed in 2004? How many UNESCO protected buildings destroyed (to think that any civilized mind would actually support Kosovo's admission to UNESCO is truly horrendous). Kosovo is not tricky. The world is tricky. NATO opened the Pandora's box and now we all have to lay in bed we all made. 

OK, I went a bit off-topic. So, this is our new world... USA pushed for Kosovo and by force, they got it. Russia did the same with Crimea. No one was able to stop them because the foundation on which the modern world is built - the International Law was so blatantly disregarded. Now, we see the same in Catalonia. Who cares about thousands of those who were beaten by Spanish police? No one, because well, Spain is not some poor, economically devastated country such as Yugoslavia. And that is what is the in the core of EU's response to the crisis.

The sad thing is that these things never end pretty. Now, one of the major EU countries' democracy will be tested and we will see how it all works in the West. But we can all expect that the balloon-heads we all put on our respective countries' governmental positions will be throwing rather hypocritical statements. Even here in Serbia, people are not really clear how they should feel about this.

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38 minutes ago, Risto said:

OK, I went a bit off-topic. So, this is our new world... USA pushed for Kosovo and by force, they got it. Russia did the same with Crimea. No one was able to stop them because the foundation on which the modern world is built - the International Law was so blatantly disregarded. Now, we see the same in Catalonia. Who cares about thousands of those who were beaten by Spanish police? No one, because well, Spain is not some poor, economically devastated country such as Yugoslavia. And that is what is the in the core of EU's response to the crisis.

The sad thing is that these things never end pretty. Now, one of the major EU countries' democracy will be tested and we will see how it all works in the West. But we can all expect that the balloon-heads we all put on our respective countries' governmental positions will be throwing rather hypocritical statements. Even here in Serbia, people are not really clear how they should feel about this.

 

For EU nothing changes. Spain remains our only interlocutor. I hope the Spanish government favours force of argument, not argument of force.

Only hopes from now. This is so sad. I suppose this is better than nothing? But I agree, these things never end pretty. If only it's not the case.

But once the leaders are arrested on Monday.....expect anything from people who live in the "Republic" World defending the institutions and Police who have been living in the Warner Bros ship during a month and now they are more angry and tired of the situtaion than on the 1st of October :(

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I personally think there is still difference between Kosovo, Crimea and Catalonia. There isn't any foreign power who is meddling in Catalonia. This is actually an internal reaction of a large group of Catalans against the stubborn Spanish government. The problem is actually the EU should have seen long ago the situation there is problematic. They should have seen it from the first referenda. 

The only foreign 'power' I know who has been going amusing themselves in Catalonia are some Flemish Nationalists from my country. And the only thing they do is partying with the Catalan Independentists, being observer during referenda, yelling Rajoy and Juncker should resign, ... ^_^ But while long time ago one of those guys is now the Belgian Minister of Interior, you cannot say this is real foreign involvement in the whole process. 

Anyway, my favorite reaction will always be the one by our favorite alcoholic saying he doesn't want 90 different EU states while he was prime minister of a little Duchy :dunno:

Before Russia even annexed Crimea, there were MEP's of the EU Parliament who were giving speeches before the protesters, ... and meddling in Ukraine affairs. @Meera of Tarth already knows one of them: Guy Verhofstadt :rolleyes:, one of the biggest defenders of the EU.  

 

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38 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I personally think there is still difference between Kosovo, Crimea and Catalonia. There isn't any foreign power who is meddling in Catalonia. This is actually an internal reaction of a large group of Catalans against the stubborn Spanish government. The problem is actually the EU should have seen long ago the situation there is problematic. They should have seen it from the first referenda. 

The only foreign 'power' I know who has been going amusing themselves in Catalonia are some Flemish Nationalists from my country. And the only thing they do is partying with the Catalan Independentists, being observer during referenda, yelling Rajoy and Juncker should resign, ... ^_^ But while long time ago one of those guys is now the Belgian Minister of Interior, you cannot say this is real foreign involvement in the whole process. 

Anyway, my favorite reaction will always be the one by our favorite alcoholic saying he doesn't want 90 different EU states while he was prime minister of a little Duchy :dunno:

Before Russia even annexed Crimea, there were MEP's of the EU Parliament who were giving speeches before the protesters, ... and meddling in Ukraine affairs. @Meera of Tarth already knows one of them: Guy Verhofstadt :rolleyes:, one of the biggest defenders of the EU.  

 

I have to say he said the truth! 90 states would be a complex thing for him, so he was being sincere at least! ;)

Ah...Guy Verhofstadt.....:P

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On 27.10.2017 at 11:58 PM, Risto said:

That is all nice and dandy if not for the greatest ethical cleansing in modern Europe. Where were the NATO forces when 200k of innocent people fled their homes, as they (rightfully) had no guarantees their lives and property will be protected by the rampaging. Where was "Responsibility to Protect" doctrine when people fled and graveyards all over Kosovo was desecrated and destroyed? Or when the churches from 13,14,15th century burned? How many villages were ethnically cleansed in 2004? How many UNESCO protected buildings destroyed (to think that any civilized mind would actually support Kosovo's admission to UNESCO is truly horrendous). Kosovo is not tricky. The world is tricky. NATO opened the Pandora's box and now we all have to lay in bed we all made. 

OK, I went a bit off-topic. So, this is our new world... USA pushed for Kosovo and by force, they got it. Russia did the same with Crimea. No one was able to stop them because the foundation on which the modern world is built - the International Law was so blatantly disregarded. Now, we see the same in Catalonia. Who cares about thousands of those who were beaten by Spanish police? No one, because well, Spain is not some poor, economically devastated country such as Yugoslavia. And that is what is the in the core of EU's response to the crisis.

The sad thing is that these things never end pretty. Now, one of the major EU countries' democracy will be tested and we will see how it all works in the West. But we can all expect that the balloon-heads we all put on our respective countries' governmental positions will be throwing rather hypocritical statements. Even here in Serbia, people are not really clear how they should feel about this.

You'll get no argument from me that the Kosovo situation was horribly mishandled, or that the application of R2P so far has been very selective. I just wanted to point out that R2P can be used to argue for the intervention in Kosovo, whereas the same isn't objectively true for the Crimea and Catalonia. 

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On 10/27/2017 at 5:57 PM, Tijgy said:

I personally think there is still difference between Kosovo, Crimea and Catalonia. There isn't any foreign power who is meddling in Catalonia. This is actually an internal reaction of a large group of Catalans against the stubborn Spanish government. The problem is actually the EU should have seen long ago the situation there is problematic. They should have seen it from the first referenda. 

The only foreign 'power' I know who has been going amusing themselves in Catalonia are some Flemish Nationalists from my country. And the only thing they do is partying with the Catalan Independentists, being observer during referenda, yelling Rajoy and Juncker should resign, ... ^_^ But while long time ago one of those guys is now the Belgian Minister of Interior, you cannot say this is real foreign involvement in the whole process. 

Anyway, my favorite reaction will always be the one by our favorite alcoholic saying he doesn't want 90 different EU states while he was prime minister of a little Duchy :dunno:

Before Russia even annexed Crimea, there were MEP's of the EU Parliament who were giving speeches before the protesters, ... and meddling in Ukraine affairs. @Meera of Tarth already knows one of them: Guy Verhofstadt :rolleyes:, one of the biggest defenders of the EU.  

 

Out of curiosity was Catalonia a Nationalist region during the Spanish Civil War?

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