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Catalun independence vote


DireWolfSpirit

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Indeed, I think I would have had far less reservations had Catalunya declared independence directly after Franco's death. But right now, I simply don't see the case for the Catalans being oppressed. A push for greater autonomy would have been one thing. But an independence that simply leaves all the parties involved worse off is something that I can't throw my support behind. 

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1 hour ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Indeed, I think I would have had far less reservations had Catalunya declared independence directly after Franco's death. But right now, I simply don't see the case for the Catalans being oppressed. A push for greater autonomy would have been one thing. But an independence that simply leaves all the parties involved worse off is something that I can't throw my support behind. 

How much of Catalonia's desire for independence derives from its opposition to Frano and his regime?

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14 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Meera and Tijgy, thank you both for giving us some depth to this story. Its been an education for me, as I was seeing the headlines but was confused what the clash was over and the history behind it.B)

Your welcome. I'd be busy this week, but if you need more info I could answer you in a week or so.

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Considering the current protests going on Catalunya against secession, it looks as though most of the people who live there are against breaking up Spain, and then, consequently, probably shattering the EU.

Had breakfast this morning with a faculty - musician member of the Berklee College of Music - Província de València.  He had many interesting comments to make.  He also thinks much of the drive to separation has to do with a feeling of loss of identity, which is driven itself by a larger degree than most seem to understand by the pressures of tourism on the residents of Barcelona.  

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9 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Out of curiosity was Catalonia a Nationalist region during the Spanish Civil War?

Oh yes. It's a long history that begins around 1000 years ago with its Counties. @The hairy bear summarised it in this post from this thread: 

But the modern nationalism goes back to the 19th Century, with the cultural period called "La Renaixença". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaixença as a way to try to restore the language and institutions from the Modern Age.

Nationalistic parties have ruled in the 20th Century and after the Spanish Transition (not always, as the Catalan branch of the Labourists/Socialists have also been in charge of the Government, though they also have catalan nationalistic sentiments at different degrees depending on the member). There were two dictatorships in the  20th Century so during that time, no parties.

However, the society is plural, and there are people who feel only Catalan, others who only feel  Spanish, and a majority that feel both (not sure these months if this have changed but that was what used to be) although from this group one can also find people who feel more one nationality than the other.

Theorder from a poll from this year was:

-Equally Catalan and Spanish

-Only Catalan

-More Catalan than SPanish

-Only Spanish

-More SPanish than Catalan

Source: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lavanguardia.com%2Fpolitica%2F20170120%2F413527100693%2Fceo-catalanes-espanoles.html

4 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

How much of Catalonia's desire for independence derives from its opposition to Frano and his regime?

I don't think that much, but it's true that some people who studied during those years felt repressed and might have a wish of independence  since their youth (however, some people might be not be independentists for fear of the economical consequences even if they want it, or others who don't  rennounce to their Spanish sentiment might want independence bc the movement is inclusive and believe they'd live better, the issue is complex, as any other independentist process, and not always black or white as the press or the Spanish Government suggests).

There have always been independentists, long before Franco, but this movement has increased  a lot since the humiliation of the Statute of Autonomy (that allowed more self-government and recognisition of the nationality), and that was cut twice (almost at the level of the one from the Transition); and after being approved  (the cut version)  in the Spanish Parliament, it was suspended  in 2010 since the  PP People's Party and some members of the Spanish Labourists  PSOE asked the Constitutional Court to do something against it.

And it was said that done. They did so. However, even if that even triggered the independentism movement, there were other ways to try to dialogue with the Spanish Government in terms of finances and other things ( many laws that were called unconstitutional). And it's also true that the political leaders abandoned the "middle term" space (for instance asking for a Federal State) and many people become complete independentists. It's also true that some people who voted independence in 2015 in the elections that allowed the current suspended Government of Catalonia to call for a referendum, really wanted to send a message to Rajoy (and in reality wanted more self-government) but the Spanish Government has never wanted to address the issue, and the thing escalated further. 

The independentist movement is quite large now, probably close to 50% of the population, but I think that more self-government or the creation of a Federal State would generate more consensus amongst the Catalan society in general. However, the more that Rajoy pushes harder, the more "completely independentist" people become, due to not wanting to deal with him anymore.

 

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5 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Indeed, I think I would have had far less reservations had Catalunya declared independence directly after Franco's death.

It would not have been likely. The independence movement at that time didn't have enought support and after 40 years of dictatorship what people wanted was to restore the historical insitutions. I think that many people were ok with that, compared to what they had lived, so I suppose they were excited enough with that. Also, people also had fear of the future, of what could happen, even after Franco's death.

Even when President Tarradellas of the Generalitat returned from the exile and went to meet Adolfo Suárez who was more centrist than the current President of Spain) he refused to acknowledge him as President of Catalonia. Later Tarradellas said the meeting had gone well. This, along with the fact that Suárez was a better strategist and that people had demonstarted in the streets in favour of the "Freedom, armistice and Statute of Autonomy" made the thing happen and it was restored. 

In fact, this week was the 40th anniversary of that day.

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But right now, I simply don't see the case for the Catalans being oppressed. A push for greater autonomy would have been one thing. But an independence that simply leaves all the parties involved worse off is something that I can't throw my support behind. 

I don't see oppression either, except for the use of force in the referendum of October, which should be condemned and pursued by justice in Europe and the repsonsibles punished, since voting it's not a crime, and goes against the human rights EVEN IF the referendum was illegal. (The one from 2014 was also unconstitutional and it took place normally).

However, I agree, there is no oppression. It's just a desire of self-determination, a right that no one opposed to when Scotland and Québec were able to decide about it, and these nations were not oppressed, either. BUt these nations could vote that -and not Catalonia-even if the three States are all Democracies from the First World and the three territories are historically nations.

(Let's see if there will be political oppression though, since at the momentm there are two political prisoners in jail without bail, and the 155 is being applied, let's see if all the measures that have been approved are necessary to restore the legality, since the Constitution doens't say which measures should be applied.

In fact, the Public media of Catalonia  is not censored today because the socialists of the Senate asked to please not do it. The suspension of the senior of the Catalan Police doesn't seem justified, either (and at any moment the now new senior could be susbtituted for someone from the paramilitary forces).

The prison for the Catalan Government Leaders could be subject of debate, but they are likely to be accused of rebellion (whicn involves the use of violence in their crimes and this has not been the case) and they could potentitally face a sentence of 30 years of prison, in a country where certain terrorists normally go to jail only 10 or 15, even if accused of more years, just as an example.

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Sure, but self-determination seems entirely possible for minorities inside a larger state, as long as that larger state is a federalized democracy. That's the difference between anticolonialism and the situation in Catalunya: the colonized have no say in the politics of the country they live in, that being entirely decided outside of their own borders. But Catalans could vote in elections for the Spanish parliament, and had their own regional parliament until very recently. The larger nation may allow a referendum on secession, but there is no moral obligation towards granting this.

Yes, the current events have the potential to turn into oppression. And the last few weeks certainly don't look good. But until the referendum itself, there was no justification for taking irrevocable, unilateral action against a country that gave Catalans a vote in the past and was entirely willing to give them a vote in the next election, in which they could quite probably have gained a better government. Again, there was always the option of asking for more devolution of powers instead of taking the massive step this was going to be.

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1 hour ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Sure, but self-determination seems entirely possible for minorities inside a larger state, as long as that larger state is a federalized democracy. That's the difference between anticolonialism and the situation in Catalunya: the colonized have no say in the politics of the country they live in, that being entirely decided outside of their own borders. But Catalans could vote in elections for the Spanish parliament, and had their own regional parliament until very recently. The larger nation may allow a referendum on secession, but there is no moral obligation towards granting this.

And this is why it makes no sense that other nations can and this one doesn't allow it, making the problem even worse, instead of facing like the other States do. If they tried to offer something at least, or derogate the unconstitutionality of the Statute of 2006, but there's nothing from them, only repression (that, in turn creates more hatred inside Spain because many people don't understand the situation).

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Yes, the current events have the potential to turn into oppression. And the last few weeks certainly don't look good. But until the referendum itself, there was no justification for taking irrevocable, unilateral action against a country that gave Catalans a vote in the past and was entirely willing to give them a vote in the next election, in which they could quite probably have gained a better government. Again, there was always the option of asking for more devolution of powers instead of taking the massive step this was going to be.

A better government? This has been asked since before 2006. The situation is not from 2017. There has been a long way of patience.... The response has always been No.

PSOE said they would approve the Statute that the Catalans voted, instead they cut it, after it being cut, it was approved again in Catalonia and then again approved in Spain and become official. Then PP said they didn't like it even if it was official and collected signatures to give to the Unconstitutional Court.

People demonstrated year after year since 2010 to 2017, and in 2010 all the Catalan Parties were united because the Statute thing was so wrong, nationalists and not. In 2012 the Catalan President asked for more self-government in terms of finances, the response was NO, he said to Rajoy that he should say something to the nearly 2 million people who had demonstrated bc they were angry at the treatment from his party due to the CCourt. Nothing. The leader of the Catalan People's Party (from the party of Rajoy) tried, later to ask him some agreement in terms of finances (less than the Catalan President) and Rajoy said NO. After this, in Spain they began saying that Education in Catalonia was manipulated and they adoctrinated children (they are syaing the same these weeks with the difference that now the Minister can directly do what he wants, even there has never been a problem with Education here). They said NO 25 times, half of them being about laws related to energy, poverty, gender equality, taxes to banks, taxes to sugar beberages, etc and other issues because they were Unconstitutiona. Later, Spain decided to apply some of them as if it had been their idea (which was another humliliation).

There were lots of requests for a selfdetermination vote in the lasts 5 years and the answer was NO.

The party that organised the referendum was voted and had a majority of seats with the help of some seats of another independentist party (although this one is anticapitalist). In their electoral programs they said they would do a referendum and that they would try to do it with the Government of Spain, and, if not, they'd do it anyway.

So yes, UDI is not a good move, I don't like it, and it's illegal (though it was what they said in their program)  but the option of a new government would NOT have resulted in a more devolution  of powers or respect to the language and catalan institutions because the Government of Spain (the 3 main parties actually) are against anything related to good strategies or empathy towards Catalonia. Only the antiausterity party Podemos, 4th one IIRC is in favour of a pacted referendum with Spain. And PSOE is trying now, after 5 years and a UDI to start to reform the Constitution (which could mean anything, not necessarily something for the problem of Catalonia and their dissatisfaction). 

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Yes, Rajoy has been in power for quite some time, and the Socialists haven't been great either, I agree. But I think this reaction is going about three steps too far. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem that would probably best be solved while staying inside Spain instead of opening a whole boatload of cans of worms by leaving, or instead by first finding allies for such a step before taking it. Just leaving, in this manner, at this time, and for these reasons is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sure it may feel good in the moment, but it leaves all those involved worse off in the long run. Does that mean the Spanish central government was in the right for refusing devolution earlier? Absolutely not. But what was necessary was a harder push in that direction, preferably coordinated with similar demands from Asturias, Galicia, Navarre and the Basque Country.

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3 hours ago, Zorral said:

Considering the current protests going on Catalunya against secession, it looks as though most of the people who live there are against breaking up Spain, and then, consequently, probably shattering the EU.

I still don't understand why so many posters here seem to assume that most Catalans favor independence. I still haven't seen anything that definitely shows that.

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28 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Yes, Rajoy has been in power for quite some time, and the Socialists haven't been great either, I agree. But I think this reaction is going about three steps too far. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem that would probably best be solved while staying inside Spain instead of opening a whole boatload of cans of worms by leaving, or instead by first finding allies for such a step before taking it. Just leaving, in this manner, at this time, and for these reasons is a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sure it may feel good in the moment, but it leaves all those involved worse off in the long run. Does that mean the Spanish central government was in the right for refusing devolution earlier? Absolutely not.

 

 

I don't think it's a permanent solution, since any country has recognised Catalonia and if it is independent, it will be the first case of an independent State that is being ruled by its former State as a normal thing. They do have some allies in Europe, but their countries from EU always say that the SP Consitution has to be respected, so in pratise, Catalonia is not an independent State.

Even Slovenia had to clarify their words, and Belgium, today, after having said that they would offer political assylum to Puigdemont. Phone calls from Spain, that's how it works.

It's a never-ending problem. Only international mediators who actually cared about the problem, or political leaders changing their minds and rennoucing to things could make a change, but that's not posible, and Rajoy is like a stone. They are not only late, they are not even negotiating anything except repression, and I highly doubt they will ever do. They'd only do that if the PM of Germany told him so (they quickly changed the Constitution when they were "asked"), so it's sad, but I see nothing changinin the horszon.

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But what was necessary was a harder push in that direction, preferably coordinated with similar demands from Asturias, Galicia, Navarre and the Basque Country.

The Basques and Navarre already have the demands that many Catalans wanted in terms of finances, and that's why they thought Rajoy would react, when thinking that they were about to leave (bc leaving makes Catalonia poorer and Spain even more). They thought: If these two have it, it's time, after 40 years, to at least, have more self-government (like actually DO).

In fact, the Basques on Thursday mediated between the two Governments so as that Puigdemont called for elections (trying to negotiate with the Spanish Gov that they didn't apply the 155 if he did so) but apparently PP didn't guarante it to him and he made the bad move of declarate independance. The other people from the Catalan Government also pushed him on doing it (some politicians and people telling him he'd be a traitor) and the combination of things made Puigdemont do that.

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14 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

I still don't understand why so many posters here seem to assume that most Catalans favor independence. I still haven't seen anything that definitely shows that.

Polls suggested 45-55%.

With the official turnout of 42% and about 90% voting yes, it's about 37% of the registered voters. BUT, 700000 bllots were seixed, so it could be more people, or less people, and now maybe more people would vote yes, or maybe less people would. In terms of the ones who voted pro-independentist parties in 2015 they were around 47% IIRC.

http://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2015/autonomicas/09/index.html

(JxSi and CUP were the pro-independence, the others were No and  not defined: Catsiqueespot and unio)

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Of course, that dosn't mean that all the people who voted these two parties would vote YES in a referendum, but they voted so with the consequences of knowing that these parties were going to start finding allies, organising a referendum, etc.

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10 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And this is why it makes no sense that other nations can and this one doesn't allow it, making the problem even worse, instead of facing like the other States do. If they tried to offer something at least, or derogate the unconstitutionality of the Statute of 2006, but there's nothing from them, only repression (that, in turn creates more hatred inside Spain because many people don't understand the situation).

So yes, UDI is not a good move, I don't like it, and it's illegal (though it was what they said in their program)  but the option of a new government would NOT have resulted in a more devolution  of powers or respect to the language and catalan institutions because the Government of Spain (the 3 main parties actually) are against anything related to good strategies or empathy towards Catalonia. Only the antiausterity party Podemos, 4th one IIRC is in favour of a pacted referendum with Spain. And PSOE is trying now, after 5 years and a UDI to start to reform the Constitution (which could mean anything, not necessarily something for the problem of Catalonia and their dissatisfaction). 

To your first paragraph: I think this is worth answering in detail. Why could Quebec or Scotland have a referendum of independence and Catalonia can't? It may seem unfair, but it's not without sense. I'm not going to justify it, but there are reasons:

1) Legal reasons: The Constitution certainly allows for referendums, provided they're state sanctioned, but it doesn't allow for independence. A referendum could have been held, but it would be pretty meaningless without first changing the Constitution to allow territories to secede. The Spanish Constitution can't really be changed without most Spaniards agreeing to it (and I personally think changing a Constitution without a very wide social and political consensus is a mistake). One could argue that, if that is the case, then the Constitution is unfair. I won't argue about fairness, but two things are worth bearing in mind:

The first is that unlike both the UK and Canada (which have a common law system), Spain is (and always has been) a country with a civil law system (like most of continental Europe). The codified text of the law must be respected, obeyed and upheld by all public powers and private citizens... until the moment it is changed. All public officials in Spain swear to obey and uphold the Constitution (as Spain's supreme law) when they're sworn into office. The Spanish Constitution is very similar to that of other countries in continental Europe like France, Italy or Germany, which don't allow for secession either.

The second is that, back in the day, Catalan nationalists were taken into account when the Constitution was written. With all its problems, a lot of effort was made by the politicians back in the day to obtain a  consensus for the Constitution amongst all the relevant political actors. Catalan nationalists had a say into how the Constitution was written and ultimately took (and helped shape) the deal offered to them. While it seems legitimate that a revision of the deal might be wanted by the Catalans further down the line, imposing a change unilaterally on the rest of Spain is what most Spaniards don't accept.

2) Political reasons: The current Spanish government represents the Spanish right. Its voters don't want Catalonia to become independent, its current partners in government (Ciudadanos) and the main party of the opposition (PSOE), don't want Catalonia to become independent. The political cost for the Spanish government to even consider this would be astronomical. The government would fall and its electorate would abandon it in mass.

It's also worth saying, that Canadian and British PMs are no fools. They did grant referendums, but I think both of them were pretty certain their chances of losing them were extremely slim (I'm pretty sure Cameron was, I'm not really sure about how it played out in Canada). If David Cameron had been advised that an independence referendum in Scotland was likely to come out in favour of independence, I think it very unlikely that he would have agreed to one (stalling and hoping the problem will fizzle out is a much more appealing solution from a politician's point of view). Brexit (another referendum which Cameron was also pretty certain he would win, and which effectively ended his political career when he lost it) weighs in recent memory as to the dangers of referendums in volatile political circumstances.

3) Practical reasons: Spain can ill afford to allow Catalonia to secede. It would be an economic disaster and a territorial nightmare, as other regions start stroking their chins and considering their options. International confidence in Spain's stability and the strength of its economy would plummet, investments would fall, the interest rates for borrowing money would grow, etc. Spain's economy is still very fragile after the recession, and the Catalan secession movement has already had an economic cost for Spain (economic growth for next year has been curtailed in most all estimates) and Catalonia (companies leaving, tourism dropping, investments going elsewhere for fear of instability).

All that said, Spain probably could and very likely would offer the Catalans a good deal as a regional government if they abandoned the notion of independence. CIU/PDCat was excellently positioned after the latest general election in Spain. If it had agreed to shelve independence and support a PP government in exchange for more devolution, money or whathaveyou, I think Rajoy would have rushed at the deal (though there are also political reasons why this would be pretty complicated, to say the least).

To your second paragraph: I really don't agree. Neither PP, PSOE nor Ciudadanos want an independent Catalonia (though if you want the three main parties in current Spanish politics you must scratch Ciudadanos and consider Podemos, which has 67 seats in parliament to Ciudadanos' 32), but that doesn't mean they are "against anything related to good strategies or empathy towards Catalonia" (nor do I think this is a language of good faith). PSOE has always been for a deal with Catalonia that keeps it reasonably happy, and under the last PSOE government, relations between Spanish central government and Catalan regional government were pretty good. They cooperated and were able to find agreed solutions to problems. The current PP government is surely a problem (for some people outside Catalonia too...) but it won't last forever, and Catalans could be instrumental in kicking it out. It's only the 'all or nothing' attitude of ERC, PDCat and CUP that are preventing this.

Another thing worth saying is that it's a fallacy that Spain will never agree to this or that. As I said before, if you just play the long game, it seems very likely you might find yourself with a coalition PSOE/Podemos government that needs Catalan nationalist votes to pass a budget at some point in the future. Lets see what that government agrees to.

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5 hours ago, The Inquisitor said:

The Constitutional Court of Spain declared that many parts of the new Statute of Autonomy were unconstitutional. Get over it. Deal with it. It's a ship that sailed long ago. No one in the judiciary, the executive or any other constitutional power in Spain wakes up every single morning thinking how they are going to screw Catalans over breakfast that day.

Voting in an illegal referendum can constitute a crime.

Are you aware why Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart are in jail?

You see I also happen to have reservations against our Constitution. I am a basque, and I can tell you that I do not like at all that our magna lex enshrines fiscal differences between the Basque Country and Navarra and the rest of Spain (even if it means we pay fewer taxes in my region). But you know what, I deal with it, I don't whine and I take it like a man.

To your first paragraph: The Constitutional Court declared illegal parts of a Statute of Autonomy that had been agreed between the Spanish central government and Catalan regional government, and that got an overwhelming support both by the Catalan parliament and the Catalan people in a referendum. I won't argue constitutional legality with the Court, but to me it was a pretty big deal in terms of democracy and how we interpret laws, and it's hard to argue it started this shit-storm.

To your second paragraph: Are you sure? For a private citizen that hasn't received a specific court mandate? Can you provide a legal article or citation for that?

To your third paragraph: I read the legal decision to deny them bail, and while it's sound on paper I do agree with some Catalan people that have argued that the crime of sedition could apply to many acts (like demonstrating in front of a house to prevent the police from executing a court order to evict a person who can't pay his rent or whose house has been seized by the bank) which have been relatively frequent in Spain in the last years and where no one has (to my knowledge) been prosecuted (and people like the current mayor of Barcelona could have been). To me it's hard to argue that there isn't a strong political element to this particular prosecution.

To your fourth paragraph: Most men (and women) I admire don't 'take things like a man'. They strive to change the things they disagree with and find unjust, rather than accepting them. I agree the Basque country shouldn't have a privileged fiscal status, but depriving them of it now seems like such a political recipe for disaster (I suspect, unlike yourself, many Basques of either gender won't be happy to take it like a man) I think extending it to other regions that want it (together with more devolution) might be a viable solution.

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4 hours ago, Mentat said:

To your second paragraph: Are you sure? For a private citizen that hasn't received a specific court mandate? Can you provide a legal article or citation for that?

it isn't, it is not  penalised anymore.

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7 hours ago, Mentat said:

 

All that said, Spain probably could and very likely would offer the Catalans a good deal as a regional government if they abandoned the notion of independence. CIU/PDCat was excellently positioned after the latest general election in Spain. If it had agreed to shelve independence and support a PP government in exchange for more devolution, money or whathaveyou, I think Rajoy would have rushed at the deal (though there are also political reasons why this would be pretty complicated, to say the least).

No, he wouldn't. there were already tensions between them (suspension of the previous President of the Generalitat of Catalunya for the non-binding referendum  of 2014) and the past shows he would not have done it. In fact, he just said no to his counterpart in the Catalan PP just a few years before (and she just demanded a little).Wat he could have given would have been loose change at most.

And the Catalan representatives voting Rajoy would have made no sense since they already knew that they could not reach an agreement with him, so what they wanted is that Pedro Sánchez from PSOE would have been the next President of Spain, instead of Rajoy, so as to try to negotiate with him.

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To your first paragraph: I think this is worth answering in detail. Why could Quebec or Scotland have a referendum of independence and Catalonia can't? It may seem unfair, but it's not without sense. I'm not going to justify it, but there are reasons:

1) Legal reasons: The Constitution certainly allows for referendums, provided they're state sanctioned, but it doesn't allow for independence. A referendum could have been held, but it would be pretty meaningless without first changing the Constitution to allow territories to secede. The Spanish Constitution can't really be changed without most Spaniards agreeing to it (and I personally think changing a Constitution without a very wide social and political consensus is a mistake). One could argue that, if that is the case, then the Constitution is unfair. I won't argue about fairness, but two things are worth bearing in mind:

The first is that unlike both the UK and Canada (which have a common law system), Spain is (and always has been) a country with a civil law system (like most of continental Europe). The codified text of the law must be respected, obeyed and upheld by all public powers and private citizens... until the moment it is changed. All public officials in Spain swear to obey and uphold the Constitution (as Spain's supreme law) when they're sworn into office. The Spanish Constitution is very similar to that of other countries in continental Europe like France, Italy or Germany, which don't allow for secession either.

The second is that, back in the day, Catalan nationalists were taken into account when the Constitution was written. With all its problems, a lot of effort was made by the politicians back in the day to obtain a  consensus for the Constitution amongst all the relevant political actors. Catalan nationalists had a say into how the Constitution was written and ultimately took (and helped shape) the deal offered to them. While it seems legitimate that a revision of the deal might be wanted by the Catalans further down the line, imposing a change unilaterally on the rest of Spain is what most Spaniards don't accept.

2) Political reasons: The current Spanish government represents the Spanish right. Its voters don't want Catalonia to become independent, its current partners in government (Ciudadanos) and the main party of the opposition (PSOE), don't want Catalonia to become independent. The political cost for the Spanish government to even consider this would be astronomical. The government would fall and its electorate would abandon it in mass.

It's also worth saying, that Canadian and British PMs are no fools. They did grant referendums, but I think both of them were pretty certain their chances of losing them were extremely slim (I'm pretty sure Cameron was, I'm not really sure about how it played out in Canada). If David Cameron had been advised that an independence referendum in Scotland was likely to come out in favour of independence, I think it very unlikely that he would have agreed to one (stalling and hoping the problem will fizzle out is a much more appealing solution from a politician's point of view). Brexit (another referendum which Cameron was also pretty certain he would win, and which effectively ended his political career when he lost it) weighs in recent memory as to the dangers of referendums in volatile political circumstances.

3) Practical reasons: Spain can ill afford to allow Catalonia to secede. It would be an economic disaster and a territorial nightmare, as other regions start stroking their chins and considering their options. International confidence in Spain's stability and the strength of its economy would plummet, investments would fall, the interest rates for borrowing money would grow, etc. Spain's economy is still very fragile after the recession, and the Catalan secession movement has already had an economic cost for Spain (economic growth for next year has been curtailed in most all estimates) and Catalonia (companies leaving, tourism dropping, investments going elsewhere for fear of instability).

No one is arguing about the "sense" of it, we all know the legal, political and economical reasons why they don't want to change it. And we all know that the referendum is unconstitutional according to Spanish Law and it's not a fair move that represents all the Catalan society.

Some notes about your explanation:

-When you say that the Constitution can not be changed without citizens agreeing this is not true, since it's not always obligued, and, in fact, an article was changed in 2011 IIRC to respond  Merkel's demand on the deficit without consulting the people.

-It is true that Catalans voted the Constitution 40 years ago, but that doesn't mean it has to be immutable. I personally think they committed a mistake by not trying to negotiate and risk more like the Basques, but I can't toally blame them anyway. We all know that the first negotiations in theory demanded more self-government and a "disticntion" of the historial nationalities, but later Spain had 17 Parliaments (commonly known as "café para todos", "coffee for everyone").

And there have been a progression in self-government, just like the introduction of the Catalan Police, that were introduced after the Generalitat. And the new Statute of 2006 was voted with a lot of consensus in the Catalan Parliamernt, many years later, and after CiU reaching agreements with PP so as to let them rule years before in the Spanish Parliament. After this PP made the Constitutional Court almost abolish the new articles completely.

In fact, in 40 years the society evolves and changes. There are other civil changes in Spain that would be unimaginable 40 years ago, such as the abolisment of the compulsary military service or marriage between people from the same gender.

-So it makes sense that the nations of Spain are allowed the right of seld-determination, such as other ones from other democracies like the United Kingdom and Canada. You say that Cameron thought that the Yes would not win, but he didn't know, and in fact he had to make some concessions that affected the end result. Failing with the Brexit but also letting Socttish decide (and make concessions)  proves that he preferred democracy over immutability unlike the Government of Spain.

The problem is that in the Parliament of Catalonia there is an immense majority in favour of a referendum and also an immense majority that wants more self-government (or independence).

http://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2015/autonomicas/09/index.html

(Only C's-orange- and dark blue (pp) are against more self-government). and even some of the members of those parties are not completely against.

The Spanish Government has an immense majority of parties  (in fact all the parties except the nationalists: Blue, Red and orange in the link) who don't want independence (and are gepolitically centralised) and only Podemos (purple) is in favour of a referndum.

http://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2016/generales/congreso/

Only the purple ones from the right side want a referendum (podemos), and the nationalists are those small parties from the right side with less than 10 seats each of them.

So the situation is extremely difficult to change. (almost impossible).

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To your second paragraph: I really don't agree. Neither PP, PSOE nor Ciudadanos want an independent Catalonia (though if you want the three main parties in current Spanish politics you must scratch Ciudadanos and consider Podemos, which has 67 seats in parliament to Ciudadanos' 32), but that doesn't mean they are "against anything related to good strategies or empathy towards Catalonia" (nor do I think this is a language of good faith). PSOE has always been for a deal with Catalonia that keeps it reasonably happy, and under the last PSOE government, relations between Spanish central government and Catalan regional government were pretty good. They cooperated and were able to find agreed solutions to problems. The current PP government is surely a problem (for some people outside Catalonia too...) but it won't last forever, and Catalans could be instrumental in kicking it out. It's only the 'all or nothing' attitude of ERC, PDCat and CUP that are preventing this.

Another thing worth saying is that it's a fallacy that Spain will never agree to this or that. As I said before, if you just play the long game, it seems very likely you might find yourself with a coalition PSOE/Podemos government that needs Catalan nationalist votes to pass a budget at some point in the future. Lets see what that government agrees to.

No, PSOE has not always been for a deal with Catalonia, they have talked about reforming the Constitution (the whole party only now after the suspension of the declaration of independence on the 10th of October and the upcoming UDI and 155 have talked about this reform) and that means dealing with the whole country, but not especifically with Catalonia. It's the Catalan branch of PSOE, PSC, who have been more open-minded talking openly about Federalism for Spain and some sectors of it about assymetrical federalism for Catalonia.

When I responded before I was referring to a new Gov. in Catalonia, not the one in Spain. I think that a new Government in Spain with PSOE and more space with PSC and nationalists could lead to a possible solution, but I think they are far, far away from achieving that. The referendum is not an option for PSOE, either, though maybe lot of Catalans would be happy with a small solution (fiscal agreeement or assymetrica Federalisml), but this is even compliated since PP and Ciudadanos will be against it, because they are centralised in terms of geopolitics. A new Government with PSOE and POdemos could, indeed, be better for stability and to achieve an agreemeentt (though lots of independentists would not like it).

bolded in red: not only them, there are two sides of the problem, and in fact the GoS is the one more to blame on the political side of the problem (although not the "legal" one).

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