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Catalun independence vote

402 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

oh! :P "Shame on EU"

The 7th of December there will be another one in Brussels, with catalans who will travel there, apparently

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On 12-11-2017 at 6:23 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

oh! :P "Shame on EU"

The 7th of December there will be another one in Brussels, with catalans who will travel there, apparently

That will be fun for my public transport. :wacko: I already got crazy last year during other protest against Trump. So much noise. If it is after four o'clock I might take a look ^_^

Anyway about our favorite EU MEP (who is completely forgetting he us actually representing the Flemish btw*): https://www.politico.eu/article/guy-verhofstadt-alde-alliance-of-liberal-democrats-and-everyone-else/amp/

* Today he is posting some tweets in French and English for the Paris attacks, but he couldn't even tweet something in Dutch to remember the Brussels attacks. It aren't the French or the English who voted him into that Parliament. But then he always have betrayed his voters.  

I think it is sad the whole atmosphere went that bad between the Catalan MEPS but I still amuse myself Guy is confronted with that situation. :D Poor Guy. 

Edited by Tijgy

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5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

That will be fun for my public transport. :wacko: I already got crazy last year during other protest against Trump. So much noise. If it is after four o'clock I might take a look ^_^

There are more than 90000 visitors currently interested, according to Wikipedia. No idea of when it will happen, exactly.

More Info: https://www.facebook.com/OmplimBrusselles/

                 https://twitter.com/OmplimBrux

Yes, demonstrations are always tricky in that sense, better not use public transport or use alternative means of transport, but since its in a labour Day it can't be avoided :wacko: which makes it more complex for the city.

In Spain the 7th of December it's also a Labour Day, but it's between two Holiday days (the 6th being the Constitution Day. which was originally the day they planned to go there, but they changed it, I suppose due to the fact that people going by car could not arrive on time)) I guess many people will take that day off for vacation and travel.

Quote

Anyway about our favorite EU MEP (who is completely forgetting he us actually representing the Flemish btw*): https://www.politico.eu/article/guy-verhofstadt-alde-alliance-of-liberal-democrats-and-everyone-else/amp/

* Today he is posting some tweets in French and English for the Paris attacks, but he couldn't even tweet something in Dutch to remember the Brussels attacks. It aren't the French or the English who voted him into that Parliament. But then he always have betrayed his voters.  

I think it is sad the whole atmosphere went that bad between the Catalan MEPS but I still amuse myself Guy is confronted with that situation:D Poor Guy. 

Our favourite!!:P

Yeah, he is a bit contradictory and hypocritical, isn't it?

And what he says about being happy that Tremosa is Isolated? Wait, Guy is super freinds with Citizens! Now it makes sense.

Shouldn't they avoid talking about the nationalistic topics? Or at least respect everyone's opinions? If the guys from PDeCat are there it's because they see their party as centrist and liberal, so I don't think Guy is being fair.

I also amuse myself with that....tat article suggests he has problems everywhere!! oh, no one said it was easy to be a leader....

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Ok, I was reading the premises of the demonstration of Brussels and it says:

1)Explaining the difficult social and political problem in Catalonia

2)Being against the application of the 155

3)In favour of the freedom of political prisoners (ex-Government and the Jordis)

4)Defense of the civil, social and democratic rights of the Catalan country (its people it says) as citizens of a free state in Europe.

So I guess it's more transversal (democratic rights) than independentist but the 4 point suggests that is also independentist ("state")

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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@Tijgy

So there was a  theoretical plan" to enter the Parliament the first day of the UDI..(10th of Octoberm the day the UDI lasted sme seconds and then was suspended) in case the Government members refused to leave the Parliament.

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.interviu.es%2Freportajes%2Farticulos%2Fel-plan-de-asalto-al-parlament

Apparenty there were three ways of entering:

-subsoil: sewers

-air: helicopters

-land: National Spanish Police trespassing on the multitude, the people who were watching everything or who could be trying the police not to enter there  :(

By land, " five groups of the Police Intervention Unit " would be occupied (each group will consist of fifty troops) that would clear the park of possible demonstrators and facilitate the entry into the Parliament of the GAR (Rapid Action Groups) of the Guard. Civil. Three hundred of those command-men, who have been compared to the US Marines, are in Catalonia waiting to receive orders.

So.. would they have done it (especially land forces) considering the international Press was there?

And the Police and Guardia Civiles are still in Catalonia...

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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This is the man who lost his eye the 1st of October talking about his experience

As the article points out, these type of guns are prohibited in Catalonia, bc 5 years ago another person lost her eye during a demonstration. The ones who usd them this time were the National SPanish Police. It's horrible that the ones who should be protecting people, the police, had to use this kind of weapons, that can injure anyone in the street, just walking.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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The minister of Foreign Affairs of Spain in an interview of Deutsche Welle about the events of the 1st of October.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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And there is no longer an European Arrest Warrant anymore against Puigdemont and his friends. 

And very weirdly when the Belgian Court delayed again their verdict. 

It probably went not that easy enough in Belgium. 

I am kind of pissed now. Don't Spain know how much it costs a court procedure? And who will pay it? I and my fellow country men. Sigh. 

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31 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

And there is no longer an European Arrest Warrant anymore against Puigdemont and his friends.

According to the Spanish press, the reason is that the Spanish court doubted that the Belgian court would appreciate the existence of the crime of rebellion (which isn't in the Belgian penal code) and thus, if they were extradited, the Spanish court could not judge them for it. It has now decided to wait for them to return to Spain (which presumably they will do at some point, as they're standing for elections) and arrest them then. It seems silly to me to be so eager to judge them for rebellion, as it seems very difficult they will be convicted due to the lack of violence of the independence process. Misuse of public authority, misallocation of public funds and disobeying a court order are the only three charges I think have any chance of sticking.

Anyway, you can send the Spanish state the bill, but it shouldn't be all that high :P

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9 hours ago, Mentat said:

According to the Spanish press, the reason is that the Spanish court doubted that the Belgian court would appreciate the existence of the crime of rebellion (which isn't in the Belgian penal code) and thus, if they were extradited, the Spanish court could not judge them for it. It has now decided to wait for them to return to Spain (which presumably they will do at some point, as they're standing for elections) and arrest them then. It seems silly to me to be so eager to judge them for rebellion, as it seems very difficult they will be convicted due to the lack of violence of the independence process. Misuse of public authority, misallocation of public funds and disobeying a court order are the only three charges I think have any chance of sticking.

Anyway, you can send the Spanish state the bill, but it shouldn't be all that high :P

Exactly, that's what I read as well, and itt makes sense as a political move, but not in legal terms. If they feared that not all the members of the Gvernment (those in Exile and those in Belgium) would be treated equally (that's what they said why they did that), then don't say that more than a month after:o.

 With the EAW they could not be charged of rebellion and sedition, and the other charges could mean months of prison, and in Spain the others altogether can mean lots of years.

I also wonder how they can be charged of rebellion anyway if that involves violence according to the law (IIRC, not an expert on it).

And what will Puigdemont do now?

In case that ERC wins and allegedly makes Puigdemont President (that would be the only option unless Puigdemont Party wins which now does't seem the case according to the last poll) would he come to become President and then arrest him? Would they arrest him in the French border before?

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

And there is no longer an European Arrest Warrant anymore against Puigdemont and his friends. 

And very weirdly when the Belgian Court delayed again their verdict. 

It probably went not that easy enough in Belgium. 

I am kind of pissed now. Don't Spain know how much it costs a court procedure? And who will pay it? I and my fellow country men. Sigh. 

I think it's not normal to do an EAW and later, some days before it is decided and the judges have studied the case and lost their time, decide to annull it?:dunno:

But it all makes sense if they feared they'd not be charged with rebellion and sedition (as a political move), but anyway, it's not a "fair" move I think. In theory, there is separation of powers...

@Tijgy what can Puigdemont do now in legal terms? Can they ask why the Spanish Judges did that? Ask for reasons? If they return they will be arrested I suppose?

BTW, yesterday 6 members of the Parliament left prison, two of them are in still in prison, one of them being the ex-VicePresident of Catalonia and leader of ERC (in theory he could win the elections according to the polls). Jordis still in prison as well.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think it's not normal to do an EAW and later, some days before it is decided and the judges have studied the case and lost their time, decide to annull it?:dunno:

But it all makes sense if they feared they'd not be charged with rebellion and sedition (as a political move), but anyway, it's not a "fair" move I think. In theory, there is separation of powers...

@Tijgy what can Puigdemont do now in legal terms? Can they ask why the Spanish Judges did that? Ask for reasons? If they return they will be arrested I suppose?

BTW, yesterday 6 members of the Parliament left prison, two of them are in still in prison, one of them being the ex-VicePresident of Catalonia and leader of ERC (in theory he could win the elections according to the polls). Jordis still in prison as well.

I think they were more scared about the fact the Belgian Court would say no. 

Puigdemont said he wanted to have a "real" judge decide his case - I think it is kind of ironic he came to Belgium for that :D - instead of a Spanish judge. Now Spain's decision ensures he actually does have to appear for a Spanish one (and it is only then after the Spanish Justice System made a decision he can go to the European Court of Human Rights). 

 

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4 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I think they were more scared about the fact the Belgian Court would say no. 

Puigdemont said he wanted to have a "real" judge decide his case - I think it is kind of ironic he came to Belgium for that :D - instead of a Spanish judge. Now Spain's decision ensures he actually does have to appear for a Spanish one (and it is only then after the Spanish Justice System made a decision he can go to the European Court of Human Rights). 

 

Yes, they were also scared about that, this way now he can be charged of everything as if he had never left.

So I suppose he'll face those 50 years of prison now...

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del

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Nobody answered me about the water issue. This is a region with negative fresh water, meaning it does not restore what it uses naturally. So, if there is independence, which I do not care about one way or another, what is their plan? To buy water from Spain at a super inflated price? Beg France?

Don't look at the water scarcity tables, they don't account for where the water comes from, and this case it comes from the interior of Spain and the Pyrenees mountain region. Maybe if you also get the Basques independence you can work something out.

Edited by Whitering

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4 hours ago, Whitering said:

Nobody answered me about the water issue. This is a region with negative fresh water, meaning it does not restore what it uses naturally. So, if there is independence, which I do not care about one way or another, what is their plan? To buy water from Spain at a super inflated price? Beg France?

Don't look at the water scarcity tables, they don't account for where the water comes from, and this case it comes from the interior of Spain and the Pyrenees mountain region. Maybe if you also get the Basques independence you can work something out.

What do you mean by "it does not restore what it uses naturally"?

There are rivers in Catalonia, and not all of them originate outside Catalonia (Ter, Llobregat, etc). There are reservoirs:dunno: Pyrinees are not only French, Aragonese and Basque, but also Catalan:dunno:. Sometimes, it rains:dunno:

There is river Ebre, or Ebro in Spanish with its source in Cantabria but discharges on a delta in the Mediterranean sea in the region of Catalonia. I guess that part of its flow is naturally part of Catalonia.... Serioulsy, water resources are the least of the problems of an hypothetic independence in Catalonia. 

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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7 hours ago, Whitering said:

Nobody answered me about the water issue. This is a region with negative fresh water, meaning it does not restore what it uses naturally. So, if there is independence, which I do not care about one way or another, what is their plan? To buy water from Spain at a super inflated price? Beg France?

Don't look at the water scarcity tables, they don't account for where the water comes from, and this case it comes from the interior of Spain and the Pyrenees mountain region. Maybe if you also get the Basques independence you can work something out.

Maybe people would be ready to answer if you brought up some evidence for your claim. Looking at the map, about half of the Spanish Pyrenees belong to Catalonia, and many of its tributaries have their origin in Catalonia. The case does not look so different from that of the Douro, which Spain shares with Portugal. 

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I actually never really understood it, but Wallonia once tried to tax Flanders because all the water originates from Wallonia ? The whole issue lead to a famous arrest of our Constitutional Court saying you cannot tax the export of water because Belgium is an economic and monetary union.

Anyway, it is just ridiculous to make an issue of water which flows naturally in a country. I thought this was just a regular case of Wallonia bullying Flanders. The opposite of course also happens. :rolleyes:

@Meera of Tarth I saw some of your country men today invading Brussels. They are quite visible with their flags and their yellow clothes. 

 

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ik, it is really an invasion! :D

I work near central station so I see a lot of Catalan Protestors and some Flemish ones walking through our windows.

Edited by Tijgy

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