Davos the Dragonslayer

Lyanna's death cause publicly

25 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Robert seems to think that it was from the abuse inflicted by Rhaegar. This seems to be the version in the North too.

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And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?" His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. "I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

The Targ side has not given a cause (yet)

Edited by Tucu

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Posted (edited)

Part of the reason Robert was so vengeful against the Targs was that he believed Rhaegar had literally raped Lyanna to death. That's a pretty brutal way to go. I can't comb through the books atm but since Robert was the King I expect his Kingdom would follow his lead and believe the same thing. 

I doubt that Viserys or Dany care enough about Lyanna to even think about her. 

 

EDIT- also, since Ned was the one who witnessed her death I can only assume he is the one who started the raped-to-death rumor.

 

Edited by ChuckPunch

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4 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

EDIT- also, since Ned was the one who witnessed her death I can only assume he is the one who started the raped-to-death rumor.

Well it was common knowledge that Lyanna either ran off with, or was abducted by (and for the record, it is almost certainly the latter, all things considered) Prince Rhaegar.  So it's already highly likely that her cause of death with something related to that; if the belief is that she was imprisoned and raped, then it's not hard to see how she might have died.  And with Robert's victory, no one is going to air an alternative theory (e.g. she pulled an Ashara Dayne and killed herself out of grief) that makes Rhaegar look like an even slightly aggrieved party.  With how quiet Ned is in general, he's 100% not going to go spreading a rumor that is as personally painful and politically damaging (fair or not) as that.

Occam's Razor is always best - and here, the obvious conclusion is that people are generally aware of the circumstances of Lyanna's disappearance, and it isn't hard to connect the dots from there.

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Being that it was an obscure event in the aftermath of a victorious rebellion and all who were involved died or are dead now, it's no wonder there's little concern nor knowledge of Lyanna's death in the continent or even among the high nobility. 

If Bob thinks Lyanna died because of wounds inflicted by Rhaegar, maybe Barry can extend his version? He seems like the guy with who Bob would vent.

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Posted (edited)

In history very poor example of death after rape is Marie Therese. Do you know any event related to it?

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There are many different versions of the exact manner of her death, which attracted great attention and was used in propaganda for many years after the revolution, during which it was embellished and exaggerated. Some reports, for example, allege that she was raped, and her breasts sliced off in addition to other bodily mutilations. There is however nothing to indicate that she was exposed to any sexual mutilations or atrocities, which was widely alleged in the sensationalist stories surrounding her famous death.

 

Edited by Davos the Dragonslayer

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

In history very poor example of death after rape is Marie Therese. Do you know any event related to it?

Only that this story only works if Marie-Therese was replaced by a imposter - her illegitimate half-sister - after either her death or self-exile.  

This has been largely debunked.

Edited by WeaselPie

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

And with Robert's victory, no one is going to air an alternative theory (e.g. she pulled an Ashara Dayne and killed herself out of grief) that makes Rhaegar look like an even slightly aggrieved party.

Well, someone like JonConn or Darry or Barristan might air such a theory from the safety of their Essosi exile.

But, as others have pointed out, Lyanna's cause of death is not that important an event to most such people. The original abduction is the thing they'd want to dispute; it's hard to imagine anyone who'd argue, "Sure, Rhaegar may have kidnapped and raped Lyanna, but he wouldn't rape her to death, she must have jumped out a window."

I could imagine some Essosi playwright, who's got information third-hand from a variety of conflicting sources, and wants to make things as dramatic as possible, coming up with that story. But such a play probably wouldn't get performed in Robert's Westeros (or Tommen's).

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2 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

EDIT- also, since Ned was the one who witnessed her death I can only assume he is the one who started the raped-to-death rumor.

I find this highly doubtful.  Ned spoke with Lyanna prior to her death.  If he believed that she had been raped to death, it likely would have crossed his mind.  I do not think "promise me" is about revenge. I also don't think he would have fought for compassion for the Targ kids had he thought that was the case.  

Pretty sure it is an invention of Bobby boy and his bruised ego, after all how could any lady prefer Rhaegar (or any man) over him?

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Robert had a grand ol' time at Stoney Sept while he was waiting for reinforcement right before the Battle of the Bells. According to Bella he slept with all the women of the Peach (fathered her in the process). 

Ned is well practiced at closing his eyes and believing what he wants to believe when it comes to Robert, and there are passages in the early Ned POVs that make me really wonder how much story he blocked out. But I doubt he had anything to do with the rape allegations. He didn't correct them, he had a promise to keep and a child to protect. 

Robert won the Trident and as the victor he gets to tell the story he wants or as he sees it. If he says Lyanna was kidnapped and raped hundreds of times by Rhaegar, then that's the official story. 

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18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

as the victor he gets to tell the story he wants

 

If the story is created by Robert then we could learn it from conversation  between Robert and Ned or  from Cersei POV. 

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2 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

If the story is created by Robert then we could learn it from conversation  between Robert and Ned or  from Cersei POV. 

I'm trying to remember if Ned told Robert that Lyanna had died of a fever and just left it at that.

Robert doesn't necessarily have to create the story. I think on some level whenever a person hears of someone being kidnapped, it's not a stretch to think that rape might occur. In Robert's case, and even Jon Arryn and Ned's cases (Bran tells Osha Rickard was beheaded, so that's another false story that Ned has told), it's just a matter of not correcting the story.

What I always find interesting is the information that's out there. Ned and Howland are allegedly the only survivors of the ToJ, and yet, Catelyn heard Ned's soldiers talking about Ned killing Arthur in single combat, so that to me is information that Ned wanted out there. But what happened to Lyanna and the aftermath of that, he didn't want that information out, so he concealed extremely well. 

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Jilted lover Robert can't accept that his betrothed willingly went with the super sexy Targaryen prince so he twists all accounts of the betrayal to cast Rhaegar in the darkest and most evil ways he can while imagining Leanna in the most innocent role possible.  Jilted lover kills Targaryen prince and usurps the throne.  Just as history is often written by the victors Robert convinces the realm (and himself) that Leanna was abducted and raped rather than accept that she chose to go with Rhaegar and loved him. 

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It also supports Robert's narrative of why he should be the rightful King. Portraying Rhaegar as the dastardly villain who kidnapped his beautiful bride-to-be, and then brutally raped and murdered her - see, he's as bad as the Mad King was! - helps Robert on a political level as well.

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I very much doubt Ned would spread such a vicious assault on Rhegars character as he raped Lyanna do death or even hint at it since Ned would know Rhegar was innocent. Robert probably jumped to the conclusion and Ned just allowed him to believe what be wished. 

 

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I would expect many people were suspicious of Robert's and Ned's explanations.  But it's not advisable to express your doubts in public.  Robert won and that is that.  I doubt the small people actually even cared about what happened.  The lords decide to go to war and they have to march.  

Ned helped perpetuate this lie and we will find out later that he did so to protect his family's honor.  

So why would a man like Selmy still hold Rhaegar in high regard if he was guilty of rape and kidnapping?  Barristan probably had his doubts but he can only repeat that which is publicly known.  

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There's typically a lot of projection going on. Robert convinced himself that Rhaegar raped Lyanna to death, because Robert himself would do such a thing. Robert also convinced himself Lyanna must have been abducted, because NO woman could have ever resisted his charms. (yukko)

Ned clammed up and endured the insults to his sister's (and Rhaegar's) names, just as he endured his wife's scorn and rage and his own dishonor by claiming Jon as his own son/bastard. He had a greater goal - keeping Jon alive. As far as we have been told, Ned and Robert never met, spoke, or even ravenned one another after the sack of King's Landing and Robert usurping the Iron Throne. Excluding Ned's participation in putting down Balon Greyjoy's Rebellion, of course. I can imagine Robert's incessant ravings about killing Rhaegar over and over, plus his graphic snuff fantasies about the death of Ned's sister would get old fast.

On 10/2/2017 at 0:27 PM, ChuckPunch said:

I doubt that Viserys or Dany care enough about Lyanna to even think about her.

Do they even know? How much accurate news gets to Essos? And, supposing there were news, but they'd never hear they had a little nephew/niece back in Westeros, how relevant would it be? Are you assuming Daenerys will have it in for House Stark now? Moreover, doesn't it seem pathetic and un-kingly for usurper Robert Baratheon to have initiated a continent-wide war because his fiancee dumped him?

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Posted (edited)

55 minutes ago, zandru said:

There's typically a lot of projection going on. Robert convinced himself that Rhaegar raped Lyanna to death, because Robert himself would do such a thing. Robert also convinced himself Lyanna must have been abducted, because NO woman could have ever resisted his charms. (yukko)

Ironically, it was Robert who raped his wife.

Edited by Davos the Dragonslayer

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On 10/3/2017 at 10:51 AM, White Ravens said:

Jilted lover Robert can't accept that his betrothed willingly went with the super sexy Targaryen prince so he twists all accounts of the betrayal to cast Rhaegar in the darkest and most evil ways he can while imagining Leanna in the most innocent role possible.  Jilted lover kills Targaryen prince and usurps the throne.  Just as history is often written by the victors Robert convinces the realm (and himself) that Leanna was abducted and raped rather than accept that she chose to go with Rhaegar and loved him. 

It is almost physically impossible for Lyanna to have gone truly willingly.  I mean, just the circumstances of a single woman being held under armed guard in a foreign land without the right to contact her loved ones pretty strongly suggests she was kidnapped.  There is no other way to square the circumstances of her residence in the Tower of Joy without any kind of support structure or communication with the outside world.

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