Bran, Bloodraven, & Cotf.....Why no GreenMen?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

First, I completely agree that BloodRaven is not the three eyed crow who appears in Bran's Dream. I'm not sure who the 3eC is, it could be Howland or even Bran himself... but I highly doubt it's Bryndon Rivers.

 

Second, I've long wondered wether the assumption made by many, that all the Children of the Forrest are on the same side is a huge leap without any real textual basis.

The Gods Eye, where the Greenmen reside was also the place of the Pact between men and Children.

Meanwhile, Bloodraven and his caves of Children are all north of the wall... 

Perhaps, much like men, Children don't all agree. Some siding with mankind and some against...

I wouldn't be surprised to find out Bloodraven was actually responcible for the return of the others rather than opposed to them. 

In fact beyond the 3eC issue, there are a number of odd details which seem remarkably reminiscent of the Night's King about Bloodraven.

He committed just about every crime against the old gods we've heard about: Incest, violating guest right, kinslaying, and oathbreaking.

13 years spent as Lord Commander before flying down from the wall.

He lectures Bran not to fear the Darkness, The nights king knew no fear (and that was the fault in him) and the night was his to rule.

 

Finally, "the wisest of both races" came together to make The Pact... this does imply that there were those of both races who did not agree with making peace.

Anyway, can't wait for spring...

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

@40 Thousand Skeletons fantastic post, I'll get round to reading your weirwoods as tree people theory at some point today.

In regards to those skulls in the niche

Based on your theory, how would you feel about the roots working their way through the animal skulls perhaps indicating the ability for bears, wolves and giants to use greensight?

I've been a proponent of this idea ever since I first read that chapter, why else would the skulls be in such a place of honour whilst the floor is literally carpeted in bones. Your post has just given the idea more weight IMO.

We know through Summer that direwolves have a culture of their own and are capable of emotions. Elder races such as Direwolves, Giants and Great Lions would have been near weirwoods long before humans, so why would they too not fit the criteria for going into the trees upon death?

I wonder if we might get a glimpse of the first Long Night during Bran's training. 

Thank you  

Yeah, it definitely seems like the skulls get treated as something special while the rest of the bones are just dumped on the floor. And I am guessing that rather than placing skulls in the niches, they actually cut off the heads (before death or after is anyone's guess) while the brain is still inside and place the head in the niche. And then obviously the flesh rots away leaving only the skull.

That is a very good question about whether or not animals could potentially use greensight. I am guessing that the difference between the skulls on the walls and the fully enthroned people like BR is that the enthroned people are full greenseers while the skulls are either regular people/animals or people like Jojen who are somewhere on the spectrum short of full greenseer status. But that's just a guess, and even if I'm right there could be enthroned bears that we haven't seen or something of the sort.

There seems to be a difference in telepathic ability/susceptibility between species of animals, as told to us by Varamyr in the ADWD prologue:

Quote

Varamyr had lost control of his other beasts in the agony of the eagle's death. His shadowcat had raced into the woods, whilst his snow bear turned her claws on those around her, ripping apart four men before falling to a spear. She would have slain Varamyr had he come within her reach. The bear hated him, had raged each time he wore her skin or climbed upon her back.

His wolves, though …

My brothers. My pack. Many a cold night he had slept with his wolves, their shaggy bodies piled up around him to help keep him warm. When I die they will feast upon my flesh and leave only bones to greet the thaw come spring. The thought was queerly comforting. His wolves had often foraged for him as they roamed; it seemed only fitting that he should feed them in the end. He might well begin his second life tearing at the warm dead flesh of his own corpse.

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Not all skinchangers felt the same, however. Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella …

The most relevant point here is that dogs are shaped to accept a telepathic bond from a human, like a boot is shaped to accept a foot. And of course ravens seem to be the bird of choice for greenseers for some reason.

Beyond that, the howling of direwolves seems to have some sort of supernatural effect on humans, most notably on Cat in the minutes leading up to Bran's assassin, when she begs Robb to kill all the direwolves to make them stop howling. Though, that may actually be the old gods/BR telepathically affecting Cat using the direwolves as a medium, rather than the direwolves doing it on their own.

Whatever the truth is, there must be some reason why the COTF felt it necessary to put the skulls of animals in the niches. And if we assume that every mind absorbed into the weirnet is effectively joined into a single consciousness, that means the weirnet must have a desire to absorb the minds of these animals for some reason.

I do think we will have info about the LN revealed by Bran, hopefully in TWOW. I would really like to see the origin of the Others and the actual cause of the LN in particular, and I kind of expect to learn both those things. But who knows, GRRM does love to leave certain things ambiguous in his stories.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Basically it would work along the lines of guiding people with the results varying. Hence, the Mummer's dragon and the Griffin never actually arrive at Dany due to Tyrion's meddling. I believe some one is using dreams to guide people towards things they want, just as some one is using the flames to send visions to people. The tools for sending these visions is the Trees, and Glass Candles. To which narrows our manipulators list a little. 

Right. Although I actually think that flames are equivalent to darkness, and there is nothing special about fire itself. Basically, being asleep/dreaming is the most susceptible state to receive telepathic visions, while being awake but in darkness is a slightly less susceptible state. Bran and Arya both start out with wolf dreams, and later their powers advance to the point where they can open their third eye while being awake, Bran by being in the pitch black darkness of the crypts and Arya by being blind. Staring into flames for hours on end would effectively make you blind, enabling your third eye to be opened in a similar fashion. So to clarify, I think both the weirwoods and glass candles could potentially be used to send visions to people who are dreaming or blind or staring into flames.

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I try to stay away from time traveling ideas but will check yours out when i get a chance

LOL I used to hate the idea of time travel being present in asoiaf, but reading those 2 stories by GRRM that explicitly contain time travel completely changed my views on the subject. Every other time travel story I have seen/read before involved annoying paradoxes (like Back to the Future or Terminator), but GRRM specifically avoids paradoxes by making it so that the time traveler is basically spawning a new parallel universe by going back in time and only changing events in the new universe. And the way he writes about time travel provides excellent fodder for playing around with human emotions. The implied message of both Unsound Variations and Under Siege is basically: if your greatest dreams and desires had been denied to you for your entire life and then someone gave you the chance to go back in time and have a completely new life, would you take that chance? And I think we are seeing a very similar setup with Bran's story. Bran wanted to be a knight. And more importantly he seems to be falling in love with Meera, but who would ever marry a broken boy like him? I think the main climax of asoiaf will be Bran making an ultimate decision between going back in time to live the life he always wanted (and fucking over everyone else in the process, including the people he loves) or destroying the weirnet (saving the people he loves but giving up his dreams forever), or something along those lines. As I have said to other people, time travel is like the 'cherry on top' of the struggles within the hearts of the characters that GRRM is writing about.

Also, no offense to other people, but most of the asoiaf time travel theories I have read are (in my opinion) stupid and wrong, because those people clearly have not read Unsound Variations and Under Siege.  

ETA: Also, if you have seen PJ's explanation of GRRM time travel, he does briefly go over how time travel works based on those stories but in my opinion does a rather terrible job explaining it. My explanation is much better.