AlaskanSandman Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 So just a brief question seeking ideas or general thoughts. Something to ponder i guess. Why didn't Bran seek out the Green Men? Meera and Jojen even mention the Green Men and their father having sought them and stayed with them. Yet they never seem to show any interest in them. Then upon arriving at the caves of Bloodraven and Leaf. Neither mentions the Green Men either.... But why???? Martin has said that the Green men will come to the fore front of the story too. So what gives. Could they not be on the same side as Blood raven? If they are, then why are we not hearing about them and an alliance to take down the Others?? We never hear about the Green Men taking part in the Battle of the Dawn either which is weird given its claimed that they predate the Long Night. So why come forward now? and why no word from Bran's team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 The CoTF/Blackraven/Green Men/Others are following Littlefinger's teachings: Quote Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: So just a brief question seeking ideas or general thoughts. Something to ponder i guess. Why didn't Bran seek out the Green Men? Meera and Jojen even mention the Green Men and their father having sought them and stayed with them. Yet they never seem to show any interest in them. Then upon arriving at the caves of Bloodraven and Leaf. Neither mentions the Green Men either.... But why???? danger and war was south, and the last greenseer was north. 5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Martin has said that the Green men will come to the fore front of the story too. So what gives. Could they not be on the same side as Blood raven? If they are, then why are we not hearing about them and an alliance to take down the Others?? They are an order of men, and bloodraven is a greenseer. They are different. Bran needs training by a greenseer to unlock his powers. The green men would not be able to help him 5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: We never hear about the Green Men taking part in the Battle of the Dawn either which is weird given its claimed that they predate the Long Night. So why come forward now? and why no word from Bran's team. The battle of the dawn took place several thousand years after the pact. It also probably took place in the north, where "winter fell" as per old Nan. Also, as tenders of the old gods, they are probably not warriors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 It's weird that you have the Last Greenseer, a bunch of COTF plugged into weirwood trees and the descendent of Bran the Builder all in the one spot, yet no mention of the Green Men. Are they all working towards the same goal? If there is some dark and evil winter to come then would Bran not find use in a parlay with the people who maintain the largest concentration of the white trees in known Westeros? If the Green Men really have maintained traditions which go back to the days of the Pact then there should be a wealth of knowledge Bran could procure. If any communication was needed between the parties at the God's Eye and BR's Cave then they could probably use the weirwood net, perhaps eliminating any need for the Green Men to head North, if they are even able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Javelin Catcher Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Perhaps the green men are the trees? The children of the forest are not children but named by the first men. Maybe this is a similar thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: Why didn't Bran seek out the Green Men? Meera and Jojen even mention the Green Men and their father having sought them and stayed with them. Yet they never seem to show any interest in them. Then upon arriving at the caves of Bloodraven and Leaf. Neither mentions the Green Men either.... But why???? I somehow see Coldhands as a Green Man. His description somehow matches them in a weird way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faera Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 On 03/10/2017 at 0:34 PM, AlaskanSandman said: So just a brief question seeking ideas or general thoughts. Something to ponder i guess. Why didn't Bran seek out the Green Men? Meera and Jojen even mention the Green Men and their father having sought them and stayed with them. Yet they never seem to show any interest in them. Then upon arriving at the caves of Bloodraven and Leaf. Neither mentions the Green Men either.... But why???? Martin has said that the Green men will come to the fore front of the story too. So what gives. Could they not be on the same side as Blood raven? If they are, then why are we not hearing about them and an alliance to take down the Others?? We never hear about the Green Men taking part in the Battle of the Dawn either which is weird given its claimed that they predate the Long Night. So why come forward now? and why no word from Bran's team. 3 Because Jojen said so? I'm not sure whether there is a practical reason from Bran and Meera's point of view other than they were all just playing "Follow the Greendreams". Actually, no. There was a practical reason for them not going to the Greenmen, or even to Greywater Watch, at the time they left Winterfell and made North. There were Ironborn at Moat Cailin, meaning Howland Reed and his vassals were likely tied up in guerrilla warfare, making the area very dangerous. Then, the Riverlands was the focal point for Robb's war against the Lannister forces. There was a lot of danger in the area. Then, finally, the God's Eye is notoriously difficult to cross. More importantly, they do not seem to have been reaching out to Bran in any noticable way, unlike Bloodraven. So, while I think Team Bran - or whatever is left of it, probably just him and Meera at best by that point - will make it to the Green Men eventually as part of Bran's "end game", Bloodraven's call was easier to answer at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 1:42 PM, Leo of House Cartel said: It's weird that you have the Last Greenseer, a bunch of COTF plugged into weirwood trees and the descendent of Bran the Builder all in the one spot, yet no mention of the Green Men. Are they all working towards the same goal? If there is some dark and evil winter to come then would Bran not find use in a parlay with the people who maintain the largest concentration of the white trees in known Westeros? If the Green Men really have maintained traditions which go back to the days of the Pact then there should be a wealth of knowledge Bran could procure. If any communication was needed between the parties at the God's Eye and BR's Cave then they could probably use the weirwood net, perhaps eliminating any need for the Green Men to head North, if they are even able to. Exactly!! I get what people are saying and i didn't miss the fact that the south was at war. Still doesn't change the fact or question as to why they didn't reach out to Bran. Why Bran and Bloodraven aren't communicating with them and coordinating a plan. At the least, the Green Men sounds like a group of Greenseers, so they should be able to communicate via the tree's on the God's Eye. Howland even went there to learn their magic, so i doubt they're useless people. The fact that their was a war in the south is still ignoring the fact that these two groups should be working together yet, we see nothing of the sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: Exactly!! I get what people are saying and i didn't miss the fact that the south was at war. Still doesn't change the fact or question as to why they didn't reach out to Bran. Why Bran and Bloodraven aren't communicating with them and coordinating a plan. At the least, the Green Men sounds like a group of Greenseers, so they should be able to communicate via the tree's on the God's Eye. Howland even went there to learn their magic, so i doubt they're useless people. The fact that their was a war in the south is still ignoring the fact that these two groups should be working together yet, we see nothing of the sort. Great subject by the way dude. As you said earlier, House Reed has links to the Green Men through Howland, so it's rather odd that neither Meera nor Jojen mention the Green Men knowing anything about Bran. If Howland knows of Bran's potential then it would be reasonable to assume he would try to contact the God's Eye. Could the lack of Green Men in BR's party indicate that they are working against each other? The Green Men tend to the God's Eye, so one would think they would be working on behalf of the Old Gods. At this point it's still pretty unclear who Bloodraven and the COTF are backing. All of these players have deep connection to the weirwoods so what's the relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbus Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 5 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said: As you said earlier, House Reed has links to the Green Men through Howland, so it's rather odd that neither Meera nor Jojen mention the Green Men knowing anything about Bran. If Howland knows of Bran's potential then it would be reasonable to assume he would try to contact the God's Eye. Could the lack of Green Men in BR's party indicate that they are working against each other? I don't have any idea what the answer to this puzzle is, but why are people so sure that a lack of information shows they are working against each other. The Reeds have been very reluctant to share certain important information with Bran (eg tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and they may have been told about what happened at the ToJ). Could it be possible the fact that they turned up to Winterfell to help Bran find the Three-eyed Crow is part of a shared plan between the Green Men and Bloodraven, in which Howland Reed is a willing participant? I don't know of any evidence, but then I don't know of evidence the other way either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said: Great subject by the way dude. As you said earlier, House Reed has links to the Green Men through Howland, so it's rather odd that neither Meera nor Jojen mention the Green Men knowing anything about Bran. If Howland knows of Bran's potential then it would be reasonable to assume he would try to contact the God's Eye. Could the lack of Green Men in BR's party indicate that they are working against each other? The Green Men tend to the God's Eye, so one would think they would be working on behalf of the Old Gods. At this point it's still pretty unclear who Bloodraven and the COTF are backing. All of these players have deep connection to the weirwoods so what's the relationship? Thank you! Well Bloodraven and Leaf didn't even tell Bran about the COTF in their weirwood thrones half dead like Bloodraven. He only saw it by breaking the rules of Warging and sneaking around. So the intentions of Bloodraven and Leaf has always struck me as odd. Lets say i wanted to help you, out right, with no gain of my own. Then i should have no secrets at all, and should tell you everything in hopes of making you understand. Anything less shows duplicity and a hidden agenda for personal gains. What are the Green Men. Yes they may just be men, but it definitely stands to reason they are at least greenseers. What if they are more though? What of this discription of green all over with antlers? Just like Garth the Green. Though Garth is unrelated to the CotF other than he supposedly tried to teach them to farm to no avail. So why then do the people/order created from the pact sound just like Garth the Green? Plus theres a Green King of the God's Eye from legend, and the Order of the Green Hand of which House Manderly is the only known members of. There is much and more that seems to be going on here. And hard to say who Bloodraven is working for as Bran describes having 3 different types of dreams. Tree Dreams, Wolf Dreams, and Three Eyed Crow dreams. The Wolf Dreams are just him warging summer while he's sleeping, something Jon and Arya do too. Now when asked about being the Three Eyed Crow, Bloodraven seems confused and responds in regards to him being a member of the Night's Watch. Then when Bran appears to Jon, he appears as a tree with a face. So if i had to bank, id venture Bloodraven is working for the Trees but that he is not possibly the 3 eyed crow. That's my question. Im not really suggesting that they're against each other, though im not fully opposed to it. It's just that there should be more going on, or some union. Though why would the Green Men come forward? To stop the Others? To bear witness? What powers could the Green Men have that Blood raven and the CotF dont? What can they even do to help? I have always wondered if the Green Men aren't a mix of between the CotF and Humans, creating a new race. Though i dont know how this would effect anything. 26 minutes ago, oldbus said: I don't have any idea what the answer to this puzzle is, but why are people so sure that a lack of information shows they are working against each other. The Reeds have been very reluctant to share certain important information with Bran (eg tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and they may have been told about what happened at the ToJ). Could it be possible the fact that they turned up to Winterfell to help Bran find the Three-eyed Crow is part of a shared plan between the Green Men and Bloodraven, in which Howland Reed is a willing participant? I don't know of any evidence, but then I don't know of evidence the other way either. Pretty sure Howland sent them because Jojen's dreams, though i could be mistaken. Id have to double check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 There is a part of me that wonders if Garth didn't rule from the God's Eye and maybe still resides there. With his sons and family ruling all of Westeros, or most of it at least. North- Brandon Builder through Brandon of the Bloody Blade The Riverlands- King Garth himself Iron Islands- The Grey King, younger brother to Garth the Green? House Good Brother from the Grey Kings loyal older brother, Garth? The Westerlands- Lann the Clever through Florys the Fox or Rowan Gold Tree. The Stormlands- Durran God's Grief The Reach- Garth Gardener Dorne- Only realm to contest his kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 2:35 PM, SirArthur said: I somehow see Coldhands as a Green Man. His description somehow matches them in a weird way. It does have similarities, so do the Storm Lords of House Durrandon/Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said: It does have similarities, so do the Storm Lords of House Durrandon/Baratheon. The one thing I am obsessed with is his cloth. Could the "black" be some form of washed out dark green ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 On 10/3/2017 at 9:51 AM, Dorian Martell's son said: danger and war was south, and the last greenseer was north. They are an order of men, and bloodraven is a greenseer. They are different. Bran needs training by a greenseer to unlock his powers. The green men would not be able to help him The battle of the dawn took place several thousand years after the pact. It also probably took place in the north, where "winter fell" as per old Nan. Also, as tenders of the old gods, they are probably not warriors And yet Howland goes to them to learn their magic. Why didn't Howland just go north to the CotF? If the Green men are just men, then how is Howland learning their magic? How has the Island remained untouched all these thousands of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 11 minutes ago, oldbus said: I don't have any idea what the answer to this puzzle is, but why are people so sure that a lack of information shows they are working against each other. The Reeds have been very reluctant to share certain important information with Bran (eg tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and they may have been told about what happened at the ToJ). Could it be possible the fact that they turned up to Winterfell to help Bran find the Three-eyed Crow is part of a shared plan between the Green Men and Bloodraven, in which Howland Reed is a willing participant? I don't know of any evidence, but then I don't know of evidence the other way either. Welcome to the board oldbus, Valar Dohaeris! No one is really sure of any animosity between BR and the GM, we just find the scenario a bit strange is all. Great point about the Reeds witholding information from Bran. Meera and Jojen themselves seemed quite surprised that Lord Eddard hadn't told Bran about The Knight of The Laughing Tree “Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I’m sure." “You never heard this tale from your father?” “Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran? Your lord father never told it to you?” It's odd that they seem so surprised by Eddard withholding this information, yet go on to tell the tale in a manner which skirts many details. This perhaps points to Bran's backers simply not wanting him to know too much untill ge got to BR, so you could certainly be right that there is a plan directly between the Green Men, Brynden and Howland. Then again, Jojen and Meera's fear at the end of ADWD, along with a lack of any "don't worry kids, Howland Reed is my homie" material from Bloodraven thus far could perhaps hint at some skism between both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 minute ago, SirArthur said: The one thing I am obsessed with is his cloth. Could the "black" be some form of washed out dark green ? I think it's more just nods and references to the ancient figure. Also consider, Azor Ahai may have been a skin changer and may have also been depicted by men as a mixed creature, much like we see with the Harpy. Which i think is just a symbol for skinchangers. The Original Harpy even clasping the Lightening bolt from the Grey King's Legend. Which i think the lightening bolt is a metaphor for the meteor or cataclysm that caused the long night, probably brought on the said skin changer. Im considering doing separate threads to analyze the myths and links between myths. Probably starting with the Grey King and his legends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 1 minute ago, Leo of House Cartel said: Welcome to the board oldbus, Valar Dohaeris! No one is really sure of any animosity between BR and the GM, we just find the scenario a bit strange is all. Great point about the Reeds witholding information from Bran. Meera and Jojen themselves seemed quite surprised that Lord Eddard hadn't told Bran about The Knight of The Laughing Tree “Prince Bran has heard that tale a hundred times, I’m sure." “You never heard this tale from your father?” “Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran? Your lord father never told it to you?” It's odd that they seem so surprised by Eddard withholding this information, yet go on to tell the tale in a manner which skirts many details. This perhaps points to Bran's backers simply not wanting him to know too much untill ge got to BR, so you could certainly be right that there is a plan directly between the Green Men, Brynden and Howland. Then again, Jojen and Meera's fear at the end of ADWD, along with a lack of any "don't worry kids, Howland Reed is my homie" material from Bloodraven thus far could perhaps hint at some skism between both sides. This could be just them respecting what ever reasons Eddard had for not telling them. Though it is interesting that they are surprised Eddard hadn't, definitely calling Eddards actions into question. Though this may just be because he doesn't want to discuss though times and Ashara Dayne, which would lead to alotttt of questions, to which Eddards answers under scrutiny dont make sense. Especially about him fathering Jon on Wylla, to which House Dayne supports suggesting that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla, all supposedly after he had already married Catelynn. Making Eddard a serious cooz hound. Which totally goes against what we know of Eddard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo of House Cartel Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: Thank you! Well Bloodraven and Leaf didn't even tell Bran about the COTF in their weirwood thrones half dead like Bloodraven. He only saw it by breaking the rules of Warging and sneaking around. So the intentions of Bloodraven and Leaf has always struck me as odd. Lets say i wanted to help you, out right, with no gain of my own. Then i should have no secrets at all, and should tell you everything in hopes of making you understand. Anything less shows duplicity and a hidden agenda for personal gains. I hadn't put much thought into the way Bran discovers the weirwooded Children, but his only finding out through "breaking the rules" is fascinating in itself when you think about it. 31 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: What are the Green Men. Yes they may just be men, but it definitely stands to reason they are at least greenseers. What if they are more though? What of this discription of green all over with antlers? Just like Garth the Green. Though Garth is unrelated to the CotF other than he supposedly tried to teach them to farm to no avail. So why then do the people/order created from the pact sound just like Garth the Green? Plus theres a Green King of the God's Eye from legend, and the Order of the Green Hand of which House Manderly is the only known members of. There is much and more that seems to be going on here. Garth the Green is another juicy piece of this puzzle. I sometimes get the feeling that some of the "main" Northerners such as the Starks, Free Folk, Umbers and Bolton's don't really put much emphasis on Garth in their conversations. As the very First Man, alledgedly, one would think Eddard, Mance, Jeor Ygritte and Roose would mention him more. Do we have any evidence of a woods witch type figure mentioning The Green? Morna, Maggy, even Old Nan? So much mystery, alongside the strange currents i the lake and murders of crows who chase away God's Eye explorers, their certainly seems We also have the God's Eye town, the unnoficial title for the unnamed villiage on the southern shore of the lake, said to have "white" houses - weirwood perhaps? How did the residents of this town play into the general events of the area? 53 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said: And hard to say who Bloodraven is working for as Bran describes having 3 different types of dreams. Tree Dreams, Wolf Dreams, and Three Eyed Crow dreams. The Wolf Dreams are just him warging summer while he's sleeping, something Jon and Arya do too. Now when asked about being the Three Eyed Crow, Bloodraven seems confused and responds in regards to him being a member of the Night's Watch. Then when Bran appears to Jon, he appears as a tree with a face. So if i had to bank, id venture Bloodraven is working for the Trees but that he is not possibly the 3 eyed crow. That's my question. Im not really suggesting that they're against each other, though im not fully opposed to it. It's just that there should be more going on, or some union. Though why would the Green Men come forward? To stop the Others? To bear witness? What powers could the Green Men have that Blood raven and the CotF dont? What can they even do to help? Yet more riddles. I wouldn't discount the possibility that the Three Eyed Crow is another party all together, the "tree dreams" and "a....crow" comment upon Bran's arrival certainly hint at the potential of such. If Bloodraven and the Singers are plugged into the trees then it seem sensible to think that they would be on good terms with they who protect the God's Eye, why wouldn't they send at least a token force of Green Men to escort Ban north? Even if they were not fighting men, Bran could certainly have used the extra help during his encounters with harsh terrain, general confusion and murderous wights. We don't know how many Green Men might be on the God's Eye, perhaps they have so little members that they simply couldn't spare anyone, lest the magic of the Isle of Faces go unsupervised. In saying that, what's the chances that a few COTF live on the lsland where the pact was signed? Why wouldn't they? What of the Blackwoods? Their Northern heritage, dead weirwood, numerous ravens and familial connection to Brynden Rivers certainly hint towards them "knowing something" about the Old Gods, though I'm not sure what. What might the Lords of Raventree Hall know about the Green Men, COTF, Bloodraven or Bran? 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: I have always wondered if the Green Men aren't a mix of between the CotF and Humans, creating a new race. Though i dont know how this would effect anything. The antlers of the GM certainly bring to mind the dappled skin of the Singers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said: And yet Howland goes to them to learn their magic. Why didn't Howland just go north to the CotF? If the Green men are just men, then how is Howland learning their magic? How has the Island remained untouched all these thousands of years? Simple. Howland is not a greenseer. he learned the magic of the crannogmen, then he learned the magic of the order of the green men, but there was no reason to call him north and have him spend the rest of his life in a tree. As for why the island remained untouched, probably a mix of violence, perceived curses and legends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.