Bran, Bloodraven, & Cotf.....Why no GreenMen?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

@AlaskanSandman

Here's my best guess. The Green Men or (if they are in fact just COTF like Leaf acting as protectors) the old gods (aka tree-people) protected by the Green Men are greenseers hooked up to the weirnet like BR, and the weirnet is for all intents and purposes a single consciousness. So in terms of providing training to HR and Bran, it didn't really matter which location they went to. As we know, Jojen was guided/manipulated by his dreams to go north, and I think it is likely that the same thing happened with HR guiding him to the Isle of Faces. These locations seem to share the important similarity of being isolated from wartime violence/military incursions from men. The IoF is an island protected by the apparent abilities of the old gods to control weather/winds and birds to fend off ships. And BR's cave is hidden beyond the Wall. The IoF was also conveniently close to Harrenhal, HR's immediate destination after leaving (possibly on a mission given to him by the Green Men). We don't yet know if Bran will need to be north of the Wall in that cave for some particular purpose, but it is at least a relatively safe/isolated location. And obviously it would have been difficult/impossible for Bran to make it to the IoF undetected, as he did on his journey to the north (well, that one mountain clan guy ran into him, and Wex saw him leave, but most people think he is dead).

So to more directly answer your OP, why didn't Bran seek out the GM? Because he was following Jojen's lead and Jojen's dreams told them to go north. Why didn't BR or Leaf mention the GM? I think because BR and the old gods on the IoF are connected and effectively the same person/hive-mind and/or mentioning them did not serve their nefarious goals. Why didn't Jojen or Meera mention them after arriving at the cave? Well there hasn't been a lot of dialogue since they arrived, but more importantly I think GRRM is just trying to be clever about his foreshadowing/lack of foreshadowing and doesn't want to give too many hints about TWOW and ADOS.

ETA: We should also ask the question, why did BR go north to that cave in the first place and not to the GM himself? Was his entire purpose to be in a position to train Bran later? If so, same question, why go north? Is there something special about being north of the Wall? Was it simply because Bran would have the ability to go north relatively undetected while going south would mean getting captured? Pondering... 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Simple. Howland is not a greenseer. he learned the magic of the crannogmen, then he learned the magic of the order of the green men, but there was no reason to call him north and have him spend the rest of his life in a tree. As for why the island remained untouched, probably a mix of violence, perceived curses and legends 

Still goes to show your wrong about them just being men. They have magic, just unknown to what degree in comparison to the CotF. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

@AlaskanSandman

Here's my best guess. The Green Men or (if they are in fact just COTF like Leaf acting as protectors) the old gods (aka tree-people) protected by the Green Men are greenseers hooked up to the weirnet like BR, and the weirnet is for all intents and purposes a single consciousness. So in terms of providing training to HR and Bran, it didn't really matter which location they went to. As we know, Jojen was guided/manipulated by his dreams to go north, and I think it is likely that the same thing happened with HR guiding him to the Isle of Faces. These locations seem to share the important similarity of being isolated from wartime violence/military incursions from men. The IoF is an island protected by the apparent abilities of the old gods to control weather/winds and birds to fend off ships. And BR's cave is hidden beyond the Wall. The IoF was also conveniently close to Harrenhal, HR's immediate destination after leaving (possibly on a mission given to him by the Green Men). We don't yet know if Bran will need to be north of the Wall in that cave for some particular purpose, but it is at least a relatively safe/isolated location. And obviously it would have been difficult/impossible for Bran to make it to the IoF undetected, as he did on his journey to the north (well, that one mountain clan guy ran into him, and Wex saw him leave, but most people think he is dead).

So to more directly answer your OP, why didn't Bran seek out the GM? Because he was following Jojen's lead and Jojen's dreams told them to go north. Why didn't BR or Leaf mention the GM? I think because BR and the old gods on the IoF are connected and effectively the same person/hive-mind and/or mentioning them did not serve their nefarious goals. Why didn't Jojen or Meera mention them after arriving at the cave? Well there hasn't been a lot of dialogue since they arrived, but more importantly I think GRRM is just trying to be clever about his foreshadowing/lack of foreshadowing and doesn't want to give too many hints about TWOW and ADOS.

ETA: We should also ask the question, why did BR go north to that cave in the first place and not to the GM himself? Was his entire purpose to be in a position to train Bran later? If so, same question, why go north? Is there something special about being north of the Wall? Was it simply because Bran would have the ability to go north relatively undetected while going south would mean getting captured? Pondering... 

Yet Bran still has to sneak around the cave to discover the other COTF on thrones? why is this not explained to him? Maybe just George trying to be mysterious for the sake of, but that seems pointless.

That's an interesting fact not mentioned yet and a good point. And yea, i dont know about all this, BR planned all this for years including the war and knew that Bran wouldn't be able to travel south. 

Im not convinced that any one can actually see the future and have seen nothing to convince me of this.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Still goes to show your wrong about them just being men. They have magic, just unknown to what degree in comparison to the CotF. 

Wrong? First of all, it's "you're." Second,  Men can possess magic. Look at MMD, or the pyromancers in Qarth and Kings landing.  both Bran and Brynden are men, and they have greensight. Magic is not the exclusive zone of the children 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Wrong? First of all, it's "you're." Second,  Men can possess magic. Look at MMD, or the pyromancers in Qarth and Kings landing.  both Bran and Brynden are men, and they have greensight. Magic is not the exclusive zone of the children 

LMao!!!!! Im done. Seriously? Ive got better things to do with my time than worry about some grammar nazi lol its called a life, i dont have all day here to spell check everything for your delicate nature. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

LMao!!!!! Im done. Seriously? Ive got better things to do with my time than worry about some grammar nazi lol its called a life, i dont have all day here to spell check everything for your delicate nature. 

Yet here you are replying. And how can we have a discussion about details in a book if you can't be bothered to pay attention to what you type?

[Clegane'sPup]

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

So just a brief question seeking ideas or general thoughts. Something to ponder i guess. 

Why didn't Bran seek out the Green Men?

Because while in his coma he dreamt about a three eyed crow.  His journey with the help of the Reed kids was to reach the three eyed crow which didn’t end until DwD. If I had not read the Dunk & Egg short stories I would not know that ole 1001 eyes is Bryden Rivers former LC of the NW.

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Meera and Jojen even mention the Green Men and their father having sought them and stayed with them. Yet they never seem to show any interest in them.

The green men reference is in the story that the Reed kids tell Bran about their father’s travel’s which ends with Howland being at the Harrenhal tourney and the beginnings of the friendship between the Stark’s and Howland.

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Then upon arriving at the caves of Bloodraven and Leaf. Neither mentions the Green Men either.... But why???? 

Because the green men on the Isle of Faces in the lake named the God’s Eye are peaceful intelligent monks and have no connection to Bloodraven or the children of the forest living in that particular cave? Kinda leaves open the idea that perhaps Howland’s mojo might be verra powerful?

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Martin has said that the Green men will come to the fore front of the story too. So what gives. Could they not be on the same side as Blood raven?

When people use the “Martin or GRRM has said,” it is helpful to provide that SSM thing or an interview clip to validate an opinion.

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

If they are, then why are we not hearing about them and an alliance to take down the Others??

Let’s see what this site’s favorite author writes about his green men:

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I      In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII            Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.      "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.  end

A Storm of Swords - Bran II         "The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."         "No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."     "It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork." "He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces."   "Did he meet the green men?"     "Yes," said Meera, "but that's another story, and not for me to tell. end

On 10/3/2017 at 7:34 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

We never hear about the Green Men taking part in the Battle of the Dawn either which is weird given its claimed that they predate the Long Night. So why come forward now? and why no word from Bran's team. 

I got nuttin’ except one reference relating to the Battle for the Dawn that was sung in a song.

Clash of Kings - Bran III        The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

Songs, legends, and tales in a fake world with a fake history.

Winter is coming and the long dark night is too. When that long dark night arrives I hope there is someone manning the Wall. All the grumpkins and snarks will be out rambling about soon.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/6/2017 at 4:23 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Because while in his coma he dreamt about a three eyed crow.  His journey with the help of the Reed kids was to reach the three eyed crow which didn’t end until DwD. If I had not read the Dunk & Egg short stories I would not know that ole 1001 eyes is Bryden Rivers former LC of the NW.

The green men reference is in the story that the Reed kids tell Bran about their father’s travel’s which ends with Howland being at the Harrenhal tourney and the beginnings of the friendship between the Stark’s and Howland.

Because the green men on the Isle of Faces in the lake named the God’s Eye are peaceful intelligent monks and have no connection to Bloodraven or the children of the forest living in that particular cave? Kinda leaves open the idea that perhaps Howland’s mojo might be verra powerful?

When people use the “Martin or GRRM has said,” it is helpful to provide that SSM thing or an interview clip to validate an opinion.

Let’s see what this site’s favorite author writes about his green men:

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I      In the south the last weirwoods had been cut down or burned out a thousand years ago, except on the Isle of Faces where the green men kept their silent watch. Up here it was different. Here every castle had its godswood, and every godswood had its heart tree, and every heart tree its face.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII            Finally the wise of both races prevailed, and the chiefs and heroes of the First Men met the greenseers and wood dancers amidst the weirwood groves of a small island in the great lake called Gods Eye.      "There they forged the Pact. The First Men were given the coastlands, the high plains and bright meadows, the mountains and bogs, but the deep woods were to remain forever the children's, and no more weirwoods were to be put to the axe anywhere in the realm. So the gods might bear witness to the signing, every tree on the island was given a face, and afterward, the sacred order of green men was formed to keep watch over the Isle of Faces.  end

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II         "The lad knew the magics of the crannogs," she continued, "but he wanted more. Our people seldom travel far from home, you know. We're a small folk, and our ways seem queer to some, so the big people do not always treat us kindly. But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces."         "No one visits the Isle of Faces," objected Bran. "That's where the green men live."     "It was the green men he meant to find. So he donned a shirt sewn with bronze scales, like mine, took up a leathern shield and a three-pronged spear, like mine, and paddled a little skin boat down the Green Fork." "He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces."   "Did he meet the green men?"     "Yes," said Meera, "but that's another story, and not for me to tell. end

I got nuttin’ except one reference relating to the Battle for the Dawn that was sung in a song.

Clash of Kings - Bran III        The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

Songs, legends, and tales in a fake world with a fake history.

Winter is coming and the long dark night is too. When that long dark night arrives I hope there is someone manning the Wall. All the grumpkins and snarks will be out rambling about soon.

It wasn't really an opinion i was expressing based off that quote,, plus some of these things seem pretty common knowledge by now that i sometime forget not every body is familiar with these odd and end quotes.

This is from SSM back in March, 1999:

Quote

LINDA: Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?

GRRM: The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.)

And yea, not really getting much in this thread than the obvious stuff that's right in the books that i can find with https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=green+men, i was kinda hoping some one would pop in that had made some further links in the story.

 

The Green Men are more than people seem to think IMO.

They were created after the Pact, which sound just like Garth the Green, who's children went on to rule most all of Westeros during the Age of Heroes with one mysterious figure from that time being dubbed the Green King of the God's Eye. Mixed with possibilities that Garth the Green and the Grey King were the same guy or brothers (House Goodbrother descends from the Grey Kings loyal older brother), of whom may be GEODawn people. (which would greatly explain the Iron Borns long interest with the riverlands, with Harren even making his base right at the God's Eye). Then you also have the nods in House Baratheon/Durrandon through their armor (Antlered and Green) of Garth. Plus Duran Married a mermaid just like the Grey King. Plus you have Dragons and Magical fires born out of demon weirwood trees (ygg) in the Grey kings legend. Perhaps Garth's base as High King was from Moat Cailyn where he ruled from the Riverlands? Moat Cailyn shows signs of a war and we know that the Pact was broken some how as the long night fell shortly after and the Other came for the first time. Was it Durran using the children and Giants as slaves to build his castle? Was it Durran taking the Rain wood from the Children? Was it more? This is the picture im painting roughly and leaning towards, and was hoping id hear some insight maybe some where's near this, and how the Order of the Green men fit into the ancient stories. Not just how the maesters tell it or the singers, but how we can put together the clues from what we're told.

If i used "your" instead of "You're" any where's, i apologize. I meant "yer". 

 

[Banner Without Brothers]

I don't know how much we can speculate on any of this when there's so little information available. Personally I didn't believe they actually existed. I mean how is it possible for men, and they are described as men or at least started out as such, how is it possible for them to survive thousands of years in isolation sitting right next to a major castle and road network? For example we never hear of Green men raids for women like the wildlings do. Or for food and resources like the mountain clans do? We can't answer even these most basic questions about their survival. So I don't know how we can intelligently speculate on anything about them.

It's interesting that Martin says they will "come to the fore" perhaps it will be by way of exposition. Perhaps it will be to tell the characters of the original terms of the pact and explain the reason why the others are attacking now. Who knows, when we're going by our imagination anything is possible.

[AlaskanSandman]

50 minutes ago, Banner Without Brothers said:

I don't know how much we can speculate on any of this when there's so little information available. Personally I didn't believe they actually existed. I mean how is it possible for men, and they are described as men or at least started out as such, how is it possible for them to survive thousands of years in isolation sitting right next to a major castle and road network? For example we never hear of Green men raids for women like the wildlings do. Or for food and resources like the mountain clans do? We can't answer even these most basic questions about their survival. So I don't know how we can intelligently speculate on anything about them.

It's interesting that Martin says they will "come to the fore" perhaps it will be by way of exposition. Perhaps it will be to tell the characters of the original terms of the pact and explain the reason why the others are attacking now. Who knows, when we're going by our imagination anything is possible.

Good points

I would venture some one is on the island though as Howland stays there for some time after seeking the Green Men out specifically. 

Then upon praying, Meera says his prayers were answered, by the CotF, The Green Men, or the Old Gods, who can say. So there is some sort of implied link on top on some one being on the island.

Though how they eat or reproduce is interesting. Unless its a weirwood grove say of 31 or 44 weirwoods with an equal amount of Ancient Greenseers alive on their thrones such as Bloodraven.

We know how old BR is, we do not how ever know, how old or long those COTF on weirwood thrones that Bran sees have been there. Meaning we dont know how long it really can extend your life. Given there are many children there on thrones, it may have been that they went one after the other or may all at once.

In my quote above though i link enough other facts to link up with the Green Men and the Age of Heroes to show something bigger happening. I still obviously havnt figured it out but i feel im going in the right direction. The Green Men sound like a possible union of men and CotF though, and Garth and his family sound just the same, even bearing the same gifts. Probably as part of the deal hoping that by giving men their abilities, they would see things their way and love the trees all the same, bringing peace. Though we know peace didn't last.

Why didn't peace last, likely has to do with this mythological lightening bolt/falling star/comet that crashed. It may have been what broke the arm of Dorne and flooded the neck. If that was the case, men may have blamed the CotF in their ignorance and the CotF may have blamed men. Or men were responsible for the stars crashing down or what ever. After falsely blaming man or accurately blaming man for it, they launched the Others after us, while we historically blame it on them. While in fact, it was neither of our faults. Idk, just a though. I really dont know what for sure broke the pact. It may have been Garth's family breaking the pact, like Durran taking the Rainwood from the children when they were supposed to get the deep wood per the pact.

Either way, Garth's family seems to be ruling all of westeros during the age of Heroes.

• Brandon-North/winterfell
• Garth- Riverlands/vale? Moat Cailyn? Green King of the God's Eye.
• Grey King- Iron Islands (Garth's younger brother or the Grey King is Garth. Explaining why the Iron Islanders are hell bent on taking the River lands.
• Lann-Westerlands
• Gardener-The Reach
• Duran- Storm Lands
• Dorne-??? House Dayne????
•  

[Curled Finger]

That there is so little mention of the Isle of Faces and the Order of Green Men should tell us something that it/they have come up in 2 separate books. 

"and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle." 

That's really all we know of the place and people.    They are not said to be greenseers or do anything other than protect the isle.   Why?   Perhaps it's a hinge of the world or the seat of the Old Gods' power.  The pact was signed there and this is a sacred order.    Sacred being religious, the pact possibly involving the Old Gods' religion?   Tend the weirwoods?   Feed them?   Trim them?  Keep their faces straight?   

The only other characters I want to bring into this are Prince Daemon and Ser Addam Velaryon.   We know Addam went to the IoF :

"Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King’s Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men. "

There is plenty of speculation as to whether Prince Daemon also landed alive on the IoF.   If he was alive both he and Addam met with the Green Men during war.    Howland Reed's journey was at peace time.    Why would a warrior and a crannogman be permitted there?   

If the Green Men are greenseers, why would they give counsel to Ser Addam during a Targaryen civil war?   What did the Dance of Dragons matter to them?    Their job was to protect isle and tend the weirwoods, not give counsel to desperate dragon riders.   

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

On 10/5/2017 at 11:47 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet Bran still has to sneak around the cave to discover the other COTF on thrones? why is this not explained to him? Maybe just George trying to be mysterious for the sake of, but that seems pointless.

That's an interesting fact not mentioned yet and a good point. And yea, i dont know about all this, BR planned all this for years including the war and knew that Bran wouldn't be able to travel south. 

Im not convinced that any one can actually see the future and have seen nothing to convince me of this.

Excellent points!  

I think Bran (as Hodor) finding the room filled with enthroned singers is one of the most important scenes in all of asoiaf (so far), at least in regard to predicting the plot of the final 2 books. Allow me to go over the most relevant quotes. As some people on the forum are aware, I have previously articulated the argument that all weirwoods are actually tree-people, but I think it would be beneficial to rehash my argument in a different way here, with a focus on answering your excellent question: Why didn't Leaf or BR tell Bran about the other COTF on weirwood thrones? Because I totally agree that it seems pointless for it to just be a weird mysterious thing that GRRM threw in just for the heck of it.

First, we have Bran and company arriving at the cave in ADWD Bran II:

Quote

The roots were everywhere, twisting through earth and stone, closing off some passages and holding up the roofs of others. All the color is gone, Bran realized suddenly. The world was black soil and white wood. The heart tree at Winterfell had roots as thick around as a giant's legs, but these were even thicker. And Bran had never seen so many of them. There must be a whole grove of weirwoods growing up above us.

So 2 important details right here. First, Bran concludes based on the sheer number of roots that there must be a whole grove of weirwoods growing above them. This is probably correct, and we have obviously seen weirwood groves in the story, like at High Heart and the grove where NW brothers swear their oath. Second, the roots are even thicker than those of the WF heart tree, which implies that these trees are even older. And since Leaf claims the COTF have inhabited that cave for a million years, it makes sense that there would be weirwoods there older than WF.

Then we get a description of the many bones and skulls littered around the passage:

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"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes.

So beyond the living COTF and BR on their weirwood thrones, there is an unspecified number of skulls in stone niches in the cave, and the weirwood roots have grown through every one. This may be the physical mechanism that allows the souls of the COTF to be absorbed into the weirnet. And this quote is one of the reasons why I think the crypts in WF may serve a similar purpose. I suspect that behind the stone kings, the roots of the WF heart tree have actually grown into every single sepulchre and through the skulls of all the WF kings/lords (and Brandon and Lyanna) absorbing them into the weirnet. And this could actually be super important because it would mean that whatever knowledge Brandon and Lyanna had while alive would be inside the weirnet and potentially directly accessible by Bran (even if Bran lacks the ability to simply see everything in the past).

Then we get the first description of BR:

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Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

Bran immediately compares BR to the other dead things in the cave. And more importantly, just like the skulls in the niches on the walls, BR too has a weirwood root growing through his skull.

And then we get (in my opinion) the most important quotes. In the next Bran chapter, Leaf vaguely explains why BR has weirwood roots growing through his body:

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The last greenseer, the singers called him, but in Bran's dreams he was still a three-eyed crow. When Meera Reed had asked him his true name, he made a ghastly sound that might have been a chuckle. "I wore many names when I was quick, but even I once had a mother, and the name she gave me at her breast was Brynden."

"I have an uncle Brynden," Bran said. "He's my mother's uncle, really. Brynden Blackfish, he's called."

"Your uncle may have been named for me. Some are, still. Not so many as before. Men forget. Only the trees remember." His voice was so soft that Bran had to strain to hear.

"Most of him has gone into the tree," explained the singer Meera called Leaf. "He has lived beyond his mortal span, and yet he lingers. For us, for you, for the realms of men. Only a little strength remains in his flesh. He has a thousand eyes and one, but there is much to watch. One day you will know."

 

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One day I will be like him. The thought filled Bran with dread. Bad enough that he was broken, with his useless legs. Was he doomed to lose the rest too, to spend all of his years with a weirwood growing in him and through him? Lord Brynden drew his life from the tree, Leaf told them. He did not eat, he did not drink. He slept, he dreamed, he watched. I was going to be a knight, Bran remembered. I used to run and climb and fight. It seemed a thousand years ago.

According to Leaf, BR draws his life from the tree, most of him has "gone into" the tree, he "lingers" for the sake of helping the realms of men (and COTF), and only a little strength remains in his flesh. And the COTF refer to BR as "the last greenseer", implying that there are no others left. I am extremely skeptical of this explanation, because of the room of enthroned singers. Just to refresh our memories, here is that quote:

Quote

Bran ate with Summer and his pack, as a wolf. As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air. As Hodor he explored the caves. He found chambers full of bones, shafts that plunged deep into the earth, a place where the skeletons of gigantic bats hung upside down from the ceiling. He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

Now, GRRM was very clever about the order in which he revealed information to us. Leaf's explanation of BR comes before we see the room of singers. I don't know about everyone else, but my impression of BR on my first read was that his weirwood-throne-keeping-him-alive setup was some sort of unique ad hoc situation, necessitated by the fact that BR had to be kept alive to eventually train Bran. And this (incorrect) assumption is somewhat supported by the fact that the COTF refer to him as "the last greenseer". But I was obviously wrong. The room full of enthroned singers proves that BR's enthroned situation is the standard procedure for what the COTF do with their greenseers. And of course the COTF seem to be preparing Bran for the same treatment, giving him his own weirwood throne. Bran even specifically fears that he will become like BR.

And this calls into question all of Leaf's claims. They refer to BR as "the last greenseer", but why? Why call him that if there is at least an entire room (and presumably many, many more) of other living greenseers? I'm guessing it is either them nefariously tricking Bran, or simply that BR is the only greenseer left who can still speak. But more importantly, Leaf claimed that BR lingers for the realms of men and only a little strength remains in his flesh. OK, well if that is the case, then what the heck are all of those other greenseers doing still alive? Are they also "lingering" for some reason? Leaf's statement implies that BR will die soon, but the room filled with greenseers has the opposite implication. Based on the purportedly low ratio of greenseers who are born over time, at least some of the ones Bran saw should be at least hundreds or thousands of years old, yet they are still alive (at least in a sense, alive enough for their eyes to follow torchlight).

So what's up with this crazy procedure of connecting greenseers to the trees? Why do the COTF even do this? Well, I will quickly rehash the main argument from my earlier thread that I linked to. First, we have this important quote from Jojen about weirwoods:

Quote

"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

So Jojen's quote, taken in context with BR and the room of enthroned greenseers, clearly implies that BR himself and all the other enthroned greenseers are themselves the old gods. And rather than "dying" in a traditional sense, they are physically connected to the root system of the weirwoods.

So then I ask an important question: If weirwood sap looks like blood (as described many times throughout asoiaf), and we have seen a bunch of greenseers including BR physically connected to the roots of weirwoods, is weirwood sap actually blood?! And my short answer is: YES. Weirwood sap looks like blood because it is blood. And then I take that idea one step further and conclude that every single weirwood has a greenseer connected to its root system. Because how else could it have blood for sap? And just to quickly support this idea without repeating all my arguments from that other thread, I will provide one more quote:

Quote

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwood tree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use… but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

Why bother carving a face on every single weirwood tree? Because every tree has its own greenseer, and every greenseer must be "awakened". And really, if you think about it, it would make a lot more sense for the COTF, a race of people who live underground (as indicated by their cat-like eyes and extensive cave network and the obvious fact that the only ones we have met do indeed live underground), to worship underground living greenseers as their gods as opposed to the actual trees (which are mostly above ground).

Now I will quickly address your other points. Did BR plan all this long-term, and is it possible to see into the future? I mostly agree with you. I don't think it is technically possible to see into the future. But there are at least a couple of events that do seem to indicate that it is possible to have knowledge of the future. For example, the death of Alebelly, as predicted by Jojen. Alebelly was shot with an arrow as Theon and the Ironborn took WF. I find it hard to believe that anyone could predict that specifically Alebelly would be the one guard on the walls killed by the Ironborn. You would have to somehow predict the exact moment of the attack, and the exact placement of the guards on the walls at that moment, and that seems like too much for even someone like BR/the old gods (who probably sent Jojen his dreams) to predict. Maybe not, it is possible that they could predict where exactly the Ironborn would climb over the walls, and maybe Alebelly had a stationary post and would predictably be at that spot all night, but that's my impression at least.

So how was Alebelly's death predicted? And how were other hard-to-predict events like Aegon Frey's death predicted? Well, my theory is that contrary to BR's claim, the old gods have the power to time travel. I recently posted a lengthy explanation of how time travel works in asoiaf (based on GRRM's other time travel stories) here, which I highly recommend reading if you haven't seen it. To summarize, it is impossible to travel to the future, but it is possible to travel to the past. And when you do travel to the past, you are technically traveling to a completely new universe, and so the timeline can be changed without causing a paradox. For example, if the old gods are in the universe 1.0 in the year 300 AC and decide they want to change something that happened 10 years ago in the timeline, they could travel back in time to the year 290 AC, into the universe 2.0, and make their change. In other words, the universe 1.0 timeline would continue on without being affected, and the universe 2.0 timeline would be changed, sort of "branching off" from the 1.0 timeline in the year 290 AC. And at that point, in the universe 2.0, the old gods could send visions of "the future" to people like Jojen or Patchface, with the caveat being that they are actually sending visions of the future from a previous version of the timeline, in which most things will be the same but some things are different (being affected by whatever change they made). So this may allow the old gods to change things they need to while still being able to safely predict events like the death of Alebelly. And in practice, this would probably mean traveling to the past hundreds or thousands of times, over and over and over again until the timeline plays out exactly how they want. So instead of the universe 2.0 or 3.0, we may be witnessing the universe 3762.0 or whatever.

And just to clarify, I do think it is possible that the old gods have accomplished a bunch of nefarious things without relying on time travel, but I think that at least Bran will use time travel in the story, as implied by his brief interaction with Ned in ADWD. And you should definitely read my time travel explanation and read the short stories Unsound Variations and Under Siege if you want to get the full picture of how GRRM writes about time travel.

So do I think BR himself had a long-term plan when he traveled north? No. But I do think the old gods who were already connected to the weirnet had a super-long term plan, and that they lured BR north with dreams in a manner similar to Jojen.

[AlaskanSandman]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That there is so little mention of the Isle of Faces and the Order of Green Men should tell us something that it/they have come up in 2 separate books. 

"and the order of green men was made afterward to tend to the weirwoods and protect the isle." 

That's really all we know of the place and people.    They are not said to be greenseers or do anything other than protect the isle.   Why?   Perhaps it's a hinge of the world or the seat of the Old Gods' power.  The pact was signed there and this is a sacred order.    Sacred being religious, the pact possibly involving the Old Gods' religion?   Tend the weirwoods?   Feed them?   Trim them?  Keep their faces straight?   

The only other characters I want to bring into this are Prince Daemon and Ser Addam Velaryon.   We know Addam went to the IoF :

"Singers say Ser Addam had flown from King’s Landing to the Gods Eye, where he landed on the sacred Isle of Faces and took counsel with the Green Men. "

There is plenty of speculation as to whether Prince Daemon also landed alive on the IoF.   If he was alive both he and Addam met with the Green Men during war.    Howland Reed's journey was at peace time.    Why would a warrior and a crannogman be permitted there?   

If the Green Men are greenseers, why would they give counsel to Ser Addam during a Targaryen civil war?   What did the Dance of Dragons matter to them?    Their job was to protect isle and tend the weirwoods, not give counsel to desperate dragon riders.   

Lmao

Good point, for a people said to just keep watch, it's interesting they would show any interest in these affairs.

Both Adam and Daemon were members of the Black party also, so it seems they were taking sides during that war possibly. Unless they gave bad council. 

Howlands even more interesting as he seems to cause Lyanna and Rhaegar to meet, and causes Eddard and Ashara Dayne to meet. Hinting at the Green Men's interest in the song of Ice and Fire or the union/pact of Ice and Fire. Which may have been what the original pact was on the gods eye. Not a pact between just men and Cotf, but a pact of Fire and Ice? This would suggest the time line might be off though, which is possible but another challenge.

[Lord Varys]

George has said that the Green Men will come into play eventually.

We also have not yet been told what the Others are, what they want, or how exactly the Long Night ended. Bloodraven or the Children could have told that to Bran, too. They did not. We are in for a gradual reveal here, and the Green Men are not exactly the top priority.

[Leo of House Cartel]

On 08/10/2017 at 10:28 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

The Green Men are more than people seem to think IMO.

They were created after the Pact, which sound just like Garth the Green, who's children went on to rule most all of Westeros during the Age of Heroes with one mysterious figure from that time being dubbed the Green King of the God's Eye. Mixed with possibilities that Garth the Green and the Grey King were the same guy or brothers (House Goodbrother descends from the Grey Kings loyal older brother), of whom may be GEODawn people. (which would greatly explain the Iron Borns long interest with the riverlands, with Harren even making his base right at the God's Eye).

Then you also have the nods in House Baratheon/Durrandon through their armor (Antlered and Green) of Garth. Plus Duran Married a mermaid just like the Grey King. Plus you have Dragons and Magical fires born out of demon weirwood trees (ygg) in the Grey kings legend. Perhaps Garth's base as High King was from Moat Cailyn where he ruled from the Riverlands? Moat Cailyn shows signs of a war and we know that the Pact was broken some how as the long night fell shortly after and the Other came for the first time.

Was it Durran using the children and Giants as slaves to build his castle? Was it Durran taking the Rain wood from the Children? Was it more? This is the picture im painting roughly and leaning towards, and was hoping id hear some insight maybe some where's near this, and how the Order of the Green men fit into the ancient stories. Not just how the maesters tell it or the singers, but how we can put together the clues from what we're told.

 

The way you have laid all the details out does paint a good picture Sandman. There seems to be too many connections between Garth, his rumoured kin, the Green Men and various others.

Why exactly the Hoares chose the banks of the God's Eye as location for their castle has always interested me. The use of weirwood for beams and rafters is troubling too..

I hadn't put much thought into the Baratheon green armour and antlered helm being connected to the Green Men, but it is a striking visual when you think about it. Considering old Durran's battles with the Singers over the Rainwood, aswell as his rumoured connection to Bran the Builder, I think you might be on to something.

I suppose the old "Renly's green eyes" retcon could hold a deeper significance in the grand scheme of things.

@40 Thousand Skeletons fantastic post, I'll get round to reading your weirwoods as tree people theory at some point today.

In regards to those skulls in the niche

11 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. 

Based on your theory, how would you feel about the roots working their way through the animal skulls perhaps indicating the ability for bears, wolves and giants to use greensight?

I've been a proponent of this idea ever since I first read that chapter, why else would the skulls be in such a place of honour whilst the floor is literally carpeted in bones. Your post has just given the idea more weight IMO.

We know through Summer that direwolves have a culture of their own and are capable of emotions. Elder races such as Direwolves, Giants and Great Lions would have been near weirwoods long before humans, so why would they too not fit the criteria for going into the trees upon death?

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

George has said that the Green Men will come into play eventually.

We also have not yet been told what the Others are, what they want, or how exactly the Long Night ended. Bloodraven or the Children could have told that to Bran, too. They did not. We are in for a gradual reveal here, and the Green Men are not exactly the top priority.

I wonder if we might get a glimpse of the first Long Night during Bran's training. 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Excellent points!  

I think Bran (as Hodor) finding the room filled with enthroned singers is one of the most important scenes in all of asoiaf (so far), at least in regard to predicting the plot of the final 2 books. Allow me to go over the most relevant quotes. As some people on the forum are aware, I have previously articulated the argument that all weirwoods are actually tree-people, but I think it would be beneficial to rehash my argument in a different way here, with a focus on answering your excellent question: Why didn't Leaf or BR tell Bran about the other COTF on weirwood thrones? Because I totally agree that it seems pointless for it to just be a weird mysterious thing that GRRM threw in just for the heck of it.

First, we have Bran and company arriving at the cave in ADWD Bran II:

So 2 important details right here. First, Bran concludes based on the sheer number of roots that there must be a whole grove of weirwoods growing above them. This is probably correct, and we have obviously seen weirwood groves in the story, like at High Heart and the grove where NW brothers swear their oath. Second, the roots are even thicker than those of the WF heart tree, which implies that these trees are even older. And since Leaf claims the COTF have inhabited that cave for a million years, it makes sense that there would be weirwoods there older than WF.

Then we get a description of the many bones and skulls littered around the passage:

So beyond the living COTF and BR on their weirwood thrones, there is an unspecified number of skulls in stone niches in the cave, and the weirwood roots have grown through every one. This may be the physical mechanism that allows the souls of the COTF to be absorbed into the weirnet. And this quote is one of the reasons why I think the crypts in WF may serve a similar purpose. I suspect that behind the stone kings, the roots of the WF heart tree have actually grown into every single sepulchre and through the skulls of all the WF kings/lords (and Brandon and Lyanna) absorbing them into the weirnet. And this could actually be super important because it would mean that whatever knowledge Brandon and Lyanna had while alive would be inside the weirnet and potentially directly accessible by Bran (even if Bran lacks the ability to simply see everything in the past).

Then we get the first description of BR:

Bran immediately compares BR to the other dead things in the cave. And more importantly, just like the skulls in the niches on the walls, BR too has a weirwood root growing through his skull.

And then we get (in my opinion) the most important quotes. In the next Bran chapter, Leaf vaguely explains why BR has weirwood roots growing through his body:

 

According to Leaf, BR draws his life from the tree, most of him has "gone into" the tree, he "lingers" for the sake of helping the realms of men (and COTF), and only a little strength remains in his flesh. And the COTF refer to BR as "the last greenseer", implying that there are no others left. I am extremely skeptical of this explanation, because of the room of enthroned singers. Just to refresh our memories, here is that quote:

Now, GRRM was very clever about the order in which he revealed information to us. Leaf's explanation of BR comes before we see the room of singers. I don't know about everyone else, but my impression of BR on my first read was that his weirwood-throne-keeping-him-alive setup was some sort of unique ad hoc situation, necessitated by the fact that BR had to be kept alive to eventually train Bran. And this (incorrect) assumption is somewhat supported by the fact that the COTF refer to him as "the last greenseer". But I was obviously wrong. The room full of enthroned singers proves that BR's enthroned situation is the standard procedure for what the COTF do with their greenseers. And of course the COTF seem to be preparing Bran for the same treatment, giving him his own weirwood throne. Bran even specifically fears that he will become like BR.

And this calls into question all of Leaf's claims. They refer to BR as "the last greenseer", but why? Why call him that if there is at least an entire room (and presumably many, many more) of other living greenseers? I'm guessing it is either them nefariously tricking Bran, or simply that BR is the only greenseer left who can still speak. But more importantly, Leaf claimed that BR lingers for the realms of men and only a little strength remains in his flesh. OK, well if that is the case, then what the heck are all of those other greenseers doing still alive? Are they also "lingering" for some reason? Leaf's statement implies that BR will die soon, but the room filled with greenseers has the opposite implication. Based on the purportedly low ratio of greenseers who are born over time, at least some of the ones Bran saw should be at least hundreds or thousands of years old, yet they are still alive (at least in a sense, alive enough for their eyes to follow torchlight).

So what's up with this crazy procedure of connecting greenseers to the trees? Why do the COTF even do this? Well, I will quickly rehash the main argument from my earlier thread that I linked to. First, we have this important quote from Jojen about weirwoods:

So Jojen's quote, taken in context with BR and the room of enthroned greenseers, clearly implies that BR himself and all the other enthroned greenseers are themselves the old gods. And rather than "dying" in a traditional sense, they are physically connected to the root system of the weirwoods.

So then I ask an important question: If weirwood sap looks like blood (as described many times throughout asoiaf), and we have seen a bunch of greenseers including BR physically connected to the roots of weirwoods, is weirwood sap actually blood?! And my short answer is: YES. Weirwood sap looks like blood because it is blood. And then I take that idea one step further and conclude that every single weirwood has a greenseer connected to its root system. Because how else could it have blood for sap? And just to quickly support this idea without repeating all my arguments from that other thread, I will provide one more quote:

Why bother carving a face on every single weirwood tree? Because every tree has its own greenseer, and every greenseer must be "awakened". And really, if you think about it, it would make a lot more sense for the COTF, a race of people who live underground (as indicated by their cat-like eyes and extensive cave network and the obvious fact that the only ones we have met do indeed live underground), to worship underground living greenseers as their gods as opposed to the actual trees (which are mostly above ground).

Now I will quickly address your other points. Did BR plan all this long-term, and is it possible to see into the future? I mostly agree with you. I don't think it is technically possible to see into the future. But there are at least a couple of events that do seem to indicate that it is possible to have knowledge of the future. For example, the death of Alebelly, as predicted by Jojen. Alebelly was shot with an arrow as Theon and the Ironborn took WF. I find it hard to believe that anyone could predict that specifically Alebelly would be the one guard on the walls killed by the Ironborn. You would have to somehow predict the exact moment of the attack, and the exact placement of the guards on the walls at that moment, and that seems like too much for even someone like BR/the old gods (who probably sent Jojen his dreams) to predict. Maybe not, it is possible that they could predict where exactly the Ironborn would climb over the walls, and maybe Alebelly had a stationary post and would predictably be at that spot all night, but that's my impression at least.

So how was Alebelly's death predicted? And how were other hard-to-predict events like Aegon Frey's death predicted? Well, my theory is that contrary to BR's claim, the old gods have the power to time travel. I recently posted a lengthy explanation of how time travel works in asoiaf (based on GRRM's other time travel stories) here, which I highly recommend reading if you haven't seen it. To summarize, it is impossible to travel to the future, but it is possible to travel to the past. And when you do travel to the past, you are technically traveling to a completely new universe, and so the timeline can be changed without causing a paradox. For example, if the old gods are in the universe 1.0 in the year 300 AC and decide they want to change something that happened 10 years ago in the timeline, they could travel back in time to the year 290 AC, into the universe 2.0, and make their change. In other words, the universe 1.0 timeline would continue on without being affected, and the universe 2.0 timeline would be changed, sort of "branching off" from the 1.0 timeline in the year 290 AC. And at that point, in the universe 2.0, the old gods could send visions of "the future" to people like Jojen or Patchface, with the caveat being that they are actually sending visions of the future from a previous version of the timeline, in which most things will be the same but some things are different (being affected by whatever change they made). So this may allow the old gods to change things they need to while still being able to safely predict events like the death of Alebelly. And in practice, this would probably mean traveling to the past hundreds or thousands of times, over and over and over again until the timeline plays out exactly how they want. So instead of the universe 2.0 or 3.0, we may be witnessing the universe 3762.0 or whatever.

And just to clarify, I do think it is possible that the old gods have accomplished a bunch of nefarious things without relying on time travel, but I think that at least Bran will use time travel in the story, as implied by his brief interaction with Ned in ADWD. And you should definitely read my time travel explanation and read the short stories Unsound Variations and Under Siege if you want to get the full picture of how GRRM writes about time travel.

So do I think BR himself had a long-term plan when he traveled north? No. But I do think the old gods who were already connected to the weirnet had a super-long term plan, and that they lured BR north with dreams in a manner similar to Jojen.

Basically it would work along the lines of guiding people with the results varying. Hence, the Mummer's dragon and the Griffin never actually arrive at Dany due to Tyrion's meddling. I believe some one is using dreams to guide people towards things they want, just as some one is using the flames to send visions to people. The tools for sending these visions is the Trees, and Glass Candles. To which narrows our manipulators list a little. 

I try to stay away from time traveling ideas but will check yours out when i get a chance

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder if we might get a glimpse of the first Long Night during Bran's training. 

I'm sure we will. I'm also rather confident that we might see a flashback to the Pact and the creation of the Green Men. We might also learn what role they played during the Long Night - I'm sure they did play a role back then.

The connection between Garth the Green and the Green Men is very obvious. Both are rumored to have had antlers, and Garth apparently also had green skin.

If I had to guess then Garth the Green - and the Green Men that were later founded - represent, at least in part, the original religious/magical culture of the First Men before they adopted the gods of the First Men. After all, this process of assimilation only began with/after the Pact so the men joining the original Green Men would be people of a different cultural background than the later First Men following the gods of the Children.

And I'm sure the crucial parts of the back story of the Others take place between the Pact and the beginning of the Long Night. That's when the Others first appeared or where created. And if the Children - or a faction of the Children - were behind that the best explanation for their motivation would be that the First Men broke the Pact a couple of generations after the Pact.

That would resonate very well with the very distant historical date with have - that Durran Godsgrief and his immediate successors took the Rainwood from the Children, that the First Men apparently already controlled the Wolfswood before the Starks took possession of it, that the Starks later warred against the Warg King and the Children of the Forest, etc.

The Pact seems to have been a farce.

What the Green Men thought of all that back then is really an interesting question. It would not surprise me if they closed their island off from the outside world because of grief when the hostilities between the First Men and the Children broke out again.

And, of course, I still expect Daemon Targaryen to show up as one of the Green Men when they finally do make an appearance. The man died atop of the Gods Eye, his body was never found, and the Isle of Faces was awfully near.

Chances are that the Green Men are immortal or at least very long-lived - else they would most likely all be dead by now. If they needed to train new recruits each generation they would be in (reasonably close) contact with the Riverlanders around them - which they are not. If Bloodraven can survive connected to a tree then Daemon could also cheat death by getting green skin or some other strange magical diet. And it is actually very appealing to have a (sort of) known character introduce a new group of players to us rather than use a new character to do that.

[AlaskanSandman]

24 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The way you have laid all the details out does paint a good picture Sandman. There seems to be too many connections between Garth, his rumoured kin, the Green Men and various others.

Why exactly the Hoares chose the banks of the God's Eye as location for their castle has always interested me. The use of weirwood for beams and rafters is troubling too..

I hadn't put much thought into the Baratheon green armour and antlered helm being connected to the Green Men, but it is a striking visual when you think about it. Considering old Durran's battles with the Singers over the Rainwood, aswell as his rumoured connection to Bran the Builder, I think you might be on to something.

I suppose the old "Renly's green eyes" retcon could hold a deeper significance in the grand scheme of things.

@40 Thousand Skeletons fantastic post, I'll get round to reading your weirwoods as tree people theory at some point today.

In regards to those skulls in the niche

Based on your theory, how would you feel about the roots working their way through the animal skulls perhaps indicating the ability for bears, wolves and giants to use greensight?

I've been a proponent of this idea ever since I first read that chapter, why else would the skulls be in such a place of honour whilst the floor is literally carpeted in bones. Your post has just given the idea more weight IMO.

We know through Summer that direwolves have a culture of their own and are capable of emotions. Elder races such as Direwolves, Giants and Great Lions would have been near weirwoods long before humans, so why would they too not fit the criteria for going into the trees upon death?

I wonder if we might get a glimpse of the first Long Night during Bran's training. 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god.

 

 

Theres alot more links too, such as House Manderly of the Reach, only known members of the Order of the Green Hand (Garth?), yet have merman and mermaid and sea stuff everyyyy where around their castle and even have a merman with a trident as their sigil. Linking both the Sea and Garth the Green.

The Grey King? Turned Grey over his 1000 year rule (Durran also lived for 1000 and wed what sounds like a mermaid as well as the Grey King), so what color was he before. Those grey eyes, skin, and hair may have all been Green. Garth too may have lived a very long time. Could this have been the curse placed upon Garth's Tomb, the Barrow in the North?

The First King. We know that Garth is the rumored first king. We also know that Garth was supposedly already in westeros when the "first men" arrived over the arm of Dorne. Finding not only Garth already there, but House Hightower, and possibly House Dayne. Not to mention the mysterious Island race of Ironborn being first men though the first men didn't sail. Which brings us back to the Grey King, the First King of the Real First Men, who led his people via Weirwood boats that landed on the west of Westeros. So as we can see, really looking at what is being said, shows us that the Grey King is Garth the Green, who led his people to Westeros as the First King.

Now here is an interesting question. The war between the CotF and the "First Men" that led to the pact of the God's Eye. Which first men was this and when did this really fall?

Were there even men who came over the land bridge of Dorne? Or were those only ever Andals?? Lann the Clever....The Winged Knight, Ser's, Dragons, King's Gaurds, round towers, etc, all during the age of heroes, when the Long Night fell and Garth's descendant's ruled all of Westeros.

Combing these legends we can kinda see that Garth turned, be it good or bad, he changed. Nagga's Living Fire, and Dragons, born out of the Trees. Then the curse. So here we see Garth the Green, becomes Azor Ahai, before the fall to the Night's King. Represented through the Green, Red, and Blue Rivers. Or many other legends or locations, such as the legend of the Bloodstone Emperor. A stone that is Green flecked with Red. A transformation shown when the Green Mountains turned to the Red Mountains, and Blue Lake became Red Lake. Note the Greenstone and Bloodstone Islands in the Broken Arm of Dorne. 

His fall seems to have come from his children as mentioned in the legend of the Night's King. Though ill say right now that this does not fully resolve how the Others came into existence and when and what actually triggered this. 

Also, how the fall happened i dont have fully worked out obviously but i feel it's not quiet what the legends are telling us. The war for the Dawn didn't end in peace or the fall of the Others. So something is up, plus, Lightbringer didn't seem to do what we would think it was meant to. There's the Corpse Queen, a complicated listing of events that may be out of order. The issue of what came first, the others, or the Corpse Bride.

I believe Brandon the Breaker fought what was known as the war for the dawn and that the order of events are probably wrong. 

The comet, or breaking of the arm of Dorne i dont think was the humans fault or the CotF. Those kind of things just happen and we're even told of how it could've happened which actually works with the story. The sea levels are changing due to the warming of the planet, everything is out of balance. 

Which i should point out that TPTWP prophecy includes their victory bringing a summer that never ends..... so not exactly a solution either. 

I dont wanna hit you with too much at once so ill cap it here, but leave you with an idea i have that means the Other is trapped in this ice body curse from the CotF. Causing the permanent imbalance since the Long Night. 

He is seeking to end the curse against him through a "Never born" child born to an alive Dany, and a dead risen Jon. Giving the Night's King a vessel to fully return to earth with and break the curse against him. Not just any body, but the body of a greenseer with blood ties to the dragons.

This is the moment Dany will switch from Azor Ahai reborn, to Nissa Nissa, and become the sword of the morning when Jon is forced to kill her and her baby to save mankind and restore balance. Because the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys. She is meant to become Dawn, not wield Dawn. 

The dragons weren't meant for her, they're meant for the Night's King who is arranging events into his liking. They are how he will bring down the wall and they were his creation to begin with. He needed Dany to birth dragons back into the world for him. 

Dawn is forged from Iron from the heart of a falling star, and weirwood trees for the Carbon to make a magical steel sword that drinks in blood for power. 

Quote

 

 A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.
A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it.

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

I should point out that the lesser first men we here about may have been brought as slaves and not led there as we are told.

Also, all these cultures were broken by the Long Night and History and Fact lost. 

Also, many of the legendary heroes we here about existed after the Long Night and the war for the Dawn. Such as Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragon Slayer, the Night with out Armor, etc. With the CotF being in the south up to the Andal invasion with them being there for the Weirwood alliance in the Stormlands, and the High Heart alliance. During which time the first men seem to have switched sides and said to heck with the CotF and just took the Andals in and gave up. To which time line wise were told no consequences came down from the CotF. 

This is assuming the time line of events is right though. As ive tried breaking down and showing before that from Garth the Gardener to the Andal invasion really wasn't that long, if you except the fact that Ser Artys Arryn is indeed the Winged Knight. I tried talking about some of this in my time accounts thread but need to add soooooo much more to cover everything for people. Valyria being the biggest pain. Though Alyssa Arryn is listed as among the Age of Heroes very clearly. Which she cant be there unless Aryts Arryn came before her and was also a part of the Age of Heroes. The tail end of it, which brought the possible end to the pact. This though requires a lil more work on my end to fully show as soooooo many people cling to what the books narrative say's even though the Maesters them selves question it. Apparently were not supposed to though. 

I tend to believe what im alluding to above that the Age of Heroes came to an end when the early Andal Invasions began. The Long Night though seems to have happened before the Andals arrived though. 

Lann the Clever, Galladon of Morne, etc likely were not Andals or Valyrians but rather people of the Empire of the Dawn. To whom the Andals and Valyrians likely take their origins from. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Pact seems to have been a farce.

Well put.

I wonder which human was first to break the pact, and if their line still exists.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And, of course, I still expect Daemon Targaryen to show up as one of the Green Men when they finally do make an appearance. The man died atop of the Gods Eye, his body was never found, and the Isle of Faces was awfully near.

Chances are that the Green Men are immortal or at least very long-lived - else they would most likely all be dead by now. If they needed to train new recruits each generation they would be in (reasonably close) contact with the Riverlanders around them - which they are not. If Bloodraven can survive connected to a tree then Daemon could also cheat death by getting green skin or some other strange magical diet. And it is actually very appealing to have a (sort of) known character introduce a new group of players to us rather than use a new character to do that.

I'm a fan of the idea that The Rogue Prince still lives. As you said, he would make a fine liason between the reader and the Green Men.

Considering both Daemon and Addam were in that general area during TPATQ, what significance do you think The First Battle of The God's Eye between Maegor and Aegon holds? Could Balerion and Quicksilver's dance hold any bearing on the Green Men's future encounter with Addam and Daemon's final resting place?

41 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Theres alot more links too, such as House Manderly of the Reach, only known members of the Order of the Green Hand (Garth?), yet have merman and mermaid and sea stuff everyyyy where around their castle and even have a merman with a trident as their sigil. Linking both the Sea and Garth the Green.

The Grey King? Turned Grey over his 1000 year rule (Durran also lived for 1000 and wed what sounds like a mermaid as well as the Grey King), so what color was he before. Those grey eyes, skin, and hair may have all been Green. Garth too may have lived a very long time. Could this have been the curse placed upon Garth's Tomb, the Barrow in the North?

The First King. We know that Garth is the rumored first king. We also know that Garth was supposedly already in westeros when the "first men" arrived over the arm of Dorne. Finding not only Garth already there, but House Hightower, and possibly House Dayne. Not to mention the mysterious Island race of Ironborn being first men though the first men didn't sail. Which brings us back to the Grey King, the First King of the Real First Men, who led his people via Weirwood boats that landed on the west of Westeros. So as we can see, really looking at what is being said, shows us that the Grey King is Garth the Green, who led his people to Westeros as the First King.

Now here is an interesting question. The war between the CotF and the "First Men" that led to the pact of the God's Eye. Which first men was this and when did this really fall?

Were there even men who came over the land bridge of Dorne? Or were those only ever Andals?? Lann the Clever....The Winged Knight, Ser's, Dragons, King's Gaurds, round towers, etc, all during the age of heroes, when the Long Night fell and Garth's descendant's ruled all of Westeros.

Combing these legends we can kinda see that Garth turned, be it good or bad, he changed. Nagga's Living Fire, and Dragons, born out of the Trees. Then the curse. So here we see Garth the Green, becomes Azor Ahai, before the fall to the Night's King. Represented through the Green, Red, and Blue Rivers. Or many other legends or locations, such as the legend of the Bloodstone Emperor. A stone that is Green flecked with Red. A transformation shown when the Green Mountains turned to the Red Mountains, and Blue Lake became Red Lake. Note the Greenstone and Bloodstone Islands in the Broken Arm of Dorne. 

His fall seems to have come from his children as mentioned in the legend of the Night's King. Though ill say right now that this does not fully resolve how the Others came into existence and when and what actually triggered this. 

Also, how the fall happened i dont have fully worked out obviously but i feel it's not quiet what the legends are telling us. The war for the Dawn didn't end in peace or the fall of the Others. So something is up, plus, Lightbringer didn't seem to do what we would think it was meant to. There's the Corpse Queen, a complicated listing of events that may be out of order. The issue of what came first, the others, or the Corpse Bride.

I believe Brandon the Breaker fought what was known as the war for the dawn and that the order of events are probably wrong. 

The comet, or breaking of the arm of Dorne i dont think was the humans fault or the CotF. Those kind of things just happen and we're even told of how it could've happened which actually works with the story. The sea levels are changing due to the warming of the planet, everything is out of balance. 

Which i should point out that TPTWP prophecy includes their victory bringing a summer that never ends..... so not exactly a solution either. 

I dont wanna hit you with too much at once so ill cap it here, but leave you with an idea i have that means the Other is trapped in this ice body curse from the CotF. Causing the permanent imbalance since the Long Night. 

He is seeking to end the curse against him through a "Never born" child born to an alive Dany, and a dead risen Jon. Giving the Night's King a vessel to fully return to earth with and break the curse against him. Not just any body, but the body of a greenseer with blood ties to the dragons.

This is the moment Dany will switch from Azor Ahai reborn, to Nissa Nissa, and become the sword of the morning when Jon is forced to kill her and her baby to save mankind and restore balance. Because the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys. She is meant to become Dawn, not wield Dawn. 

The dragons weren't meant for her, they're meant for the Night's King who is arranging events into his liking. They are how he will bring down the wall and they were his creation to begin with. He needed Dany to birth dragons back into the world for him. 

Dawn is forged from Iron from the heart of a falling star, and weirwood trees for the Carbon to make a magical steel sword that drinks in blood for power. 

Tremendous! I'll need to give this one a few reads over dude, talk about a can of worms! I like the general idea and your connections between the colours of Garth, Grey King and the forks of the Trident make for very compelling reading. 

You mentioned Bloodstone, which was the lair or The Rogue Prince and his beloved Blood Wyrm, I wonder what significance this could hold, considering Daemon's connection to the God's Eye.

Both you and @Lord Varys make great points about the original culture of the very First Men, before they assimilated into the Old God's belief system.

How might House Dustin of Barrowtown be connected to all of this? We know the stories of "corpse lords" and their claim of direct descent from the First King. I always wondered why George added that one in.