U.S. Politics: Having a Good Time

[Seli]

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

There have been almost as many mass shootings in 2017 as there have been days, but the data sheet from mother jones has 92 entries in it. On the surface of those stats I'm willing to concede my perceptions of racial dynamics of the perpetrators may be off. Mother jones appear to be using a higher threshold, and I would have actually expected this group to skew white more heavily than the standard "4 peopled murdered" one. All of that said the difference between "thats how it always is with these white guys" and any other group that people continue to ignore is that white people are not being systematically discriminated against in America (or Australia) on the basis of their skin colour. The power dynamics cannot be removed from the equation and that is why one statement isn't racist and the other would be. If you're going to open up the conversation whining about racism against white people, a lot of people are going to draw conclusions about you that you may not like.

...

I looked some more and they have limited the database to random shootings with 4 our more people killed, not including the gunman. Also they filter out all sprees related to crime and I think relational issues. (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map/ ). Adding back some of those filtered with the same limit gives 156 mass shootings between 2009 and 2016 (inclusive) (https://everytownresearch.org/reports/mass-shootings-analysis/), showing how many mass murders happen within families.

The one a day number uses 4 people injured or killed in the same event (https://www.massshootingtracker.org/data), so lowering the threshold a bit.

 

[mormont]

19 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 And it’s attitudes like yours that drive white people to the Republican Party.

It really isn't.

And if it were, well, too bad. If your allegiance to the idea of equality is so flimsy that it can be destroyed by someone denying that white people are victims of racism, I would suggest your allegiance was only paper-thin anyway. The problem is not that someone pissed you off. The problem is that you were never really onside in the first place. You were just willing to pretend, as long as nobody rocked the boat. You were never going to back real change, because that involves boat-rocking.

[Dr. Pepper]

14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

White people don’t experience institutional racism in the United States, but they can absolutely experience racism in general. And it’s attitudes like yours that drive white people to the Republican Party.

It's a convenient excuse people use, but chances are a person driven to the Republican Party or to nazi sympathizing/defending were already so inclined to lean that way.  

[King Ned Stark]

@karaddin, didn't mean to imply you were saying things in an accusatory manner, sorry if that's how it came across.  I don't see any answers for the pressures society puts on boys either.

@James Arryn, no problem, I thought it interesting too, and I appreciated your post.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

26 minutes ago, mormont said:

It really isn't.

And if it were, well, too bad. If your allegiance to the idea of equality is so flimsy that it can be destroyed by someone denying that white people are victims of racism, I would suggest your allegiance was only paper-thin anyway. The problem is not that someone pissed you off. The problem is that you were never really onside in the first place. You were just willing to pretend, as long as nobody rocked the boat. You were never going to back real change, because that involves boat-rocking.

 

23 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It's a convenient excuse people use, but chances are a person driven to the Republican Party or to nazi sympathizing/defending were already so inclined to lean that way.  

It’s more nuanced than that. The biggest indicator that a white person was going to support Trump was racial resentment, and yes while many of those people were white supremacists in one form or another, it’s also true that many of those people were sick and tired of society telling them to feel ashamed simply because they are white. Making laughable inaccurate statements like white people can’t and don’t experience racism feeds into that.

[Gorn]

27 minutes ago, mormont said:

It really isn't.

And if it were, well, too bad. If your allegiance to the idea of equality is so flimsy that it can be destroyed by someone denying that white people are victims of racism, I would suggest your allegiance was only paper-thin anyway. The problem is not that someone pissed you off. The problem is that you were never really onside in the first place. You were just willing to pretend, as long as nobody rocked the boat. You were never going to back real change, because that involves boat-rocking.

They don't have to vote Republican. If a potential ally stays at home on election day because they feel they are not welcome in your party "tent", it is almost as damaging.

[YOVMO]

20 hours ago, Ormond said:

Uh, if you do not want to discuss anything on this site other than things directly related to Westeros, simply stay out of the General Chatter area. Discussing things unrelated to Westeros is precisely what General Chatter is for.

you are correct. I apparently made, as they say, a wrong turn at Albuquerque

 

[Shryke]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s more nuanced than that. The biggest indicator that a white person was going to support Trump was racial resentment, and yes while many of those people were white supremacists in one form or another, it’s also true that many of those people were sick and tired of society telling them to feel ashamed simply because they are white. Making laughable inaccurate statements like white people can’t and don’t experience racism feeds into that.

It's really not true actually.

Racial resentment is mostly about racism. I mean, one of the predictors of racial resentment is actually a lack of contact with people of other races so, like, who exactly is being racist against these poor whites exactly?

[Shryke]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

Ay-up.  Knew it was there, coz this is always how it works with these white guys.  And here it is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-paddock-abuse-girlfriend_us_59d40429e4b0218923e60bcc?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

I don't know anything more than anyone else, but how many times have guys been abusive, the wife, the girlfriend leaves, and they go berserk, killing her, often killing others, before killing themselves?  Maybe google will tell us how many times a year this happens.

One has wondered all through this why the girlfriend was "out of the country."  Supposedly he wired her $100,000.  Why, we wonder. To get her to come back? If that was the deal she was smart enough to know better.

 

Here's a good Vox piece on the link:

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/6/21/15840652/mass-shootings-domestic-violence

But yeah, being a domestic abuser is a huge predictor of these kind of violent actions.

Quote

 

Joan Burbick, who wrote Gun Show Nation, saw that marital problems very much came to the fore in her interviews with men at gun shows, and this was going back 10 years. It's not just a proclivity to violence, but it's closely related to traditional notions of male behavior — and by that, I mean macho behavior. One of the arguments about gun ownership is that men, to some degree, are expressing a hypermasculinity, and that is very much married to what you might call traditional attitudes about marriage, about male/female relations. Which include subjugation of the woman, a woman's place is in the home, that sort of thing.

Of course, in the modern era, those attitudes rarely prevail. There aren't that many women who would meekly accept this idea that the woman should stay in the home, should not argue with the man — this whole bundle of old attitudes.

In the gun culture, there is also an extolling of what might be identified as traditional male values of male dominance, of the man properly expressing the use of force.

 

Quote

 

Hope Reese
States with a higher rate of gun ownership also have more homicides. Not only that — women are disproportionately affected. Research shows that gun ownership rates cause only 1.5 percent of the rise in murders of men but 41 percent of the rise in murders of women. Why are women more likely to be victims of gun violence?

Robert Spitzer
One, when you find greater levels of violence generally, a lot of that's going to be domestic violence or spawned by domestic violence. So you would expect that. The other thing is this notion of traditional male attitudes — that the man rules the roost, that the male ego in a relationship should be handled carefully. There is certainly reason to believe that more traditional attitudes about male/female relationships, which make a greater allowance for men's expression of violence and masculinity, which are often seen as linked, can cultivate violence against women and violence generally.

 

ie - Machoism and regressive ideas about gender roles are a cancer that destroys men, yes. But it kills women WAY more. And often, with guns.

Quote

according to Angela Stroud, author of Good Guys With Guns, "between 1980 and 2008, 41.5 percent of murdered women were killed by a current or former husband or boyfriend, 30 percent were killed by an acquaintance, and 16.7 percent were killed by a family member."

 

To the poster a page ago complaining about the framing of toxic masculinity, remember that no matter how bad men have it, the victims of toxic masculinity who end up suffering the most are the women those men abuse and kill.

[King Ned Stark]

57 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

It's a convenient excuse people use, but chances are a person driven to the Republican Party or to nazi sympathizing/defending were already so inclined to lean that way.  

Are you saying someone in the Republican Party is equivalent to nazi sympathizing?

[Dr. Pepper]

27 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

It’s more nuanced than that. The biggest indicator that a white person was going to support Trump was racial resentment, and yes while many of those people were white supremacists in one form or another, it’s also true that many of those people were sick and tired of society telling them to feel ashamed simply because they are white. Making laughable inaccurate statements like white people can’t and don’t experience racism feeds into that.

I mean, No, not even.  White people are the dominate race in this society.  They aren't experiencing racism.  

I think sometimes white people confuse the demand that they be aware with a statement that they must be ashamed.  These are different ideas, though it's not like it would be a bad idea if we were collectively ashamed of our history or some of our present.  If a person becomes sick and tired of society telling them that racism exists and that it's bad, that person was already rooted deeply in that side of the political spectrum.  There are millions of people who get sick and tired of hearing about racism and they uproot themselves to do something to change things rather than entrenching further into the shibag side.

[Shryke]

1 minute ago, King Ned Stark said:

Are you saying someone in the Republican Party is equivalent to nazi sympathizing?

They are supporting a nazi friendly organization. You can call that whatever you like.

[Dr. Pepper]

Just now, King Ned Stark said:

Are you saying someone in the Republican Party is equivalent to nazi sympathizing?

I did not equate the two, but it's not like I would be able to make a strong argument that there is not significant intersection there.  I'm of the opinion that if you support and vote for nazi sympathizers, then that's also who you are.  Look who we have in the white house, look at the members of the party who allow it.  

[King Ned Stark]

6 minutes ago, Shryke said:

Here's a good Vox piece on the link:

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/6/21/15840652/mass-shootings-domestic-violence

But yeah, being a domestic abuser is a huge predictor of these kind of violent actions.

ie - Machoism and regressive ideas about gender roles are a cancer that destroys men, yes. But it kills women WAY more. And often, with guns.

 

To the poster a page ago complaining about the framing of toxic masculinity, remember that no matter how bad men have it, the victims of toxic masculinity who end up suffering the most are the women those men abuse and kill.

This is your opinion.  When looking at gun violence, suicide greatly skewers the numbers, and men are far more likely to commit suicide than women.  When you look at the numbers of suicides compared to mass shootings, it seems that much more often troubled/deranged/abused men ( or whatever you want to call it) choose to take their own life instead of others.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I mean, No, not even.  White people are the dominate race in this society.  They aren't experiencing racism.  

This is flatly inaccurate. Being the dominate race does not mean that an individual of said race cannot experience racism in a given situation. What it does mean, as I said before, is that it’s highly unlikely that a white person will experience institutional racism.

33 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I think sometimes white people confuse the demand that they be aware with a statement that they must be ashamed.  These are different ideas, though it's not like it would be a bad idea if we were collectively ashamed of our history or some of our present.  If a person becomes sick and tired of society telling them that racism exists and that it's bad, that person was already rooted deeply in that side of the political spectrum.  There are millions of people who get sick and tired of hearing about racism and they uproot themselves to do something to change things rather than entrenching further into the shibag side.

I agree for the most part, but the problem, as I mentioned before, is that people tend to make sweeping statements about white people that can be offensive, and it’s completely human for people to react that way. So when someone says that white people don’t experience racism or that all mass shootings are done by white men, etc., it can be problematic in the same way as when some white people say that racism doesn’t exist. The latter is clearly worse, but again, it’s all fairly nuanced.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s more nuanced than that. The biggest indicator that a white person was going to support Trump was racial resentment, and yes while many of those people were white supremacists in one form or another, it’s also true that many of those people were sick and tired of society telling them to feel ashamed simply because they are white. Making laughable inaccurate statements like white people can’t and don’t experience racism feeds into that.

Nope, sorry, don't see how this is any more nuanced than what I said, or what nuance I supposedly missed.

What you're saying is what I'm saying: these people are only on board with equality so long as it doesn't cost them anything, not even the mild discomfort of being reminded that racism still exists and that they are members of the racially dominant group.

If people don't understand what racism is, how it manifests and what needs to be done about it - or if they don't care to understand, or understand and don't like the idea - none of that should be put down to the fault of people who are open about these things. If your support for racial equality ends the moment you hear a hard truth, you never supported it.

[Maithanet]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

It’s more nuanced than that. The biggest indicator that a white person was going to support Trump was racial resentment, and yes while many of those people were white supremacists in one form or another, it’s also true that many of those people were sick and tired of society telling them to feel ashamed simply because they are white. Making laughable inaccurate statements like white people can’t and don’t experience racism feeds into that.

I mostly agree with what you are saying here.  The Dictionary defines racism as being something general, like "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.   This includes beliefs that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."   This is also more or less how I define racism. 

Others (almost always of a liberal bend) seek to add an additional element to racism, which is that in a society such as ours where institutional racism is such a problem, institutional racism and racism are inexplicably linked.  Thus white people cannot be the victims of racism because any racial prejudice they may experience does not have institutional support of society at large behind it.  I assume this is what Dr. Pepper means when she says:

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

White people are the dominate race in this society.  They aren't experiencing racism. 

Because the idea that no white person in America has ever experienced racism/prejudice seems ridiculous.  But perhaps she meant "white people as a whole" rather than each individual white person.  I'll let her speak for herself on that. 

EDIT:  Spelling.

[Mother Cocanuts]

7 hours ago, Sword of Doom said:

 

Nah, it really doesn't, especially since white people do not experience racism. 

Interesting. Care to expand?

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I mean, No, not even.  White people are the dominate race in this society.  They aren't experiencing racism. 

Therefore, by proxy White people are all racist, right? Because if your definition of racism selects for the statistical advantage of whites as a part of its premise, then there's no way a white person can escape that label. Conceptually speaking, this is garbage because there's no way you can assign attitudes, beliefs, and dominance to skin color alone, but it does make for good semantics.

[Bonnot OG]

6 hours ago, Gorn said:

You convinced me with your detailed and well thought-out rebuttal.

Seriously, ME's point is that race should not be brought into discussion unless there is actual evidence that it plays a role, and statistics show that it doesn't. First, like dmc said, it sets a dangerous precedent that can be used against minorities (imagine someone writing "this is always how it works with these Asian guys" after the Virginia Tech shooting). Second, it distracts from stuff that is actually important, such as prevalence of males and discussion of mental health.

DMC is completely unaware of his cis straight white privilege, so I am not really worried about what he thinks on the matter since numerous times in the past he thought pointing out his societal privilege is attacking him.

This has zero to do with mental health. Maybe some of the people pushing that mental health bullshit should actually read up on the issues with saying it's a mental illness problem and see that the majority of people with mental health problems are not violent and are more often than not the victims of violence / abuse. 

Also, in the US, race is always important. Hate to burst your little bubble, but it is. 

I know some white guy on the internet may not think it is, but it is. And the guys race and most mass shooters race are pointed out because the violence white commit gets white washed badly. Look at how they are portrayed in the media after killing numerous people vs how a person of color is treated. 

 

[Bonnot OG]

7 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

Interesting. Care to expand?

Therefore, by proxy White people are all racist, right? Because if your definition of racism selects for the statistical advantage of whites as a part of its premise, then there's no way a white person can escape that label. Conceptually speaking, this is garbage because there's no way you can assign attitudes, beliefs, and dominance to skin color alone, but it does make for good semantics.

Actually yes, all white people are racist and we have greatly benefited from white supremacy and still benefit from it since society is still very much based around white supremacy and white people still perpetuate it.

Casual / subtle racism is just as dangerous as overt / extreme racism, and lots of white people perpetuate casual / subtle forms of racism. 
 

This actually explains it fairly well.