U.S. Politics: Having a Good Time

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

Try to squeeze out an ounce of human empathy from a narcissistic sociopath is harder than trying to get a spoonful of water out of a rock in the middle of the Sahara. 

Yeah, the scope of this with him is just maddening. You realize people don't have access to running water, right? 

[TerraPrime]

18 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

And that's stupid. If we are to operate on "prejudice + power" whites couldn't be racist toward Asians, and Hispanics couldn't be racist toward blacks. I'd rather use the original definition.

So are you positing that in American history, Asian Americans have been in position of power and are, therefore, not included in the parameter of racism being discussed here? 

 

[Mexal]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, the scope of this with him is just maddening. You realize people don't have access to running water, right? 

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/916028232054472704

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

21 minutes ago, Mexal said:

 

https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/916038134315466752

ETA: No idea why my twitter links don't end up posting like it used to.

Copy the link and then select remove formatting after you paste.

[Mexal]

Thanks.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

13 minutes ago, Mexal said:

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/916028232054472704

SHOCKING.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Dr. Pepper said:

I'm on board with telling him his water and all the water used to make every other drink he might consume came from this purifier and then him no longer drinking anything and then suffering the consequences of that.

He might just believe you too if you're the last person he speaks to. The only question that would remain is he willing to try the "big water?"

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

15 minutes ago, Mexal said:

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/916028232054472704

Makes "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job" seem almost compassionate by comparison. 

[Red Tiger]

How long until Tillerson's out?

[Mexal]

This is shocking...

 

[Mother Cocanuts]

53 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Okay, I think I know where you are trying to go with this. It’s basically because there was no power dynamic between myself and the other individual in question, the prejudice + power definition of racism fails.

Yes, exactly.

53 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

But, I thought, perhaps, it was understood that we were talking about aggregate effects and not always about the random encounters between two individuals. So lets reformulate a little and say its prejudice + power + aggregate effects.

If that's the case, what does it matter to individual white people? That's like my confronting some random black person and telling them, "well, you know, on average nearly half of all murders in this country are committed by black perpetrators, so acknowledge that..." Not only is that incredibly improper and racist, but it has absolutely no significance unless I maintain that the random person whom I confronted is responsible directly or indirectly.

 

53 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

You know though, they controlled for a bunch of stuff that should be able to explain the wage gap. But even after controlling for this stuff, they still found a large gap, that really ought not be there, after controlling for relevant variables.

Here the relevant paragraphs.
 

Now, given, the history of this country, along with a big “unexplained” part in the wage gap, after controlling for a number of relevant variables, we ought to be mighty, mighty suspicious that a bit of racism or prejudice, or its pernicious historical effects, are in play here. 

Also, did it ever occur to you that differences in school quality or in career opportunities are likely due to the effects of racism? I mean particularly after controlling for a host of factors that should explain the pay gap, but don’t.
 

Yes, and they chalked the unexplained part up to discrimination, school quality, or career opportunities. Did it ever occur to you that it might no be racism? If you're going to conclude that the unexplained portion of the gap is racism, then you have to show that it's racism.

1 hour ago, OldGimletEye said:

Here is what you wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that reason for this stuff was because of racism?

Yes it did. But like I've said above, can you show that it's racism?

50 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

So are you positing that in American history, Asian Americans have been in position of power and are, therefore, not included in the parameter of racism being discussed here? 

 

No. I'm arguing that Asians, at least economically, are in positions of power and not included in the parameter of racism being discussed here if we hold that racism = prejudice + power. (Of course, this conclusion is absurd, and that's the point, TerraPrime.)

[maarsen]

4 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That would be hilarious.

A few years ago I had a moron for a manager. Another manager told me about this conversation he had with their supervisor. "Manager 1 is tell me that you(manager 2) are calling him a fucking moron behind his back."

Manager 2 says "No I would never do that. I call him a fucking moron to his face. You can ask him. He's sitting beside me now."

[TerraPrime]

1 hour ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

No. I'm arguing that Asians, at least economically, are in positions of power and not included in the parameter of racism being discussed here if we hold that racism = prejudice + power. (Of course, this conclusion is absurd, and that's the point, TerraPrime.)

Economics is not the only measure of power, though. Power comes from sheer numbers, in many cases, when you take over the ruling structures simply due to the overwhelming number. Conflating economic success and power in society is unwise at best. 

And I know what you're trying to get at - I am saying your premise is flawed and you're not getting at what you think you're getting at. 

[OldGimletEye]

On 10/5/2017 at 6:44 PM, Mother Cocanuts said:

Exactly.If that's the case, what does it matter to individual white people? That's like my confronting some random black person and telling them, "well, you know, on average nearly half of all murders in this country are committed by black perpetrators, so acknowledge that..." Not only is that incredibly improper and racist, but it has absolutely no significance unless I maintain that the random person whom I confronted is responsible directly or indirectly.

It should matter to individual white people in this country if they care about basic fairness. This isn’t hard.

Also there is a lot of evidence, that racism has operated through American institutions and laws, to the detriment of minorities, particularly African Americans. That shouldn’t be a secret.

And it shouldn’t be a secret exactly that racism, as it acts through various institutions, can have pernicious effects for a very long time.

Your analogy is simply irrelevant because it doesn’t remotely address the issue of how laws and institutions, controlled by dominant groups, harm less powerful groups because of prejudice.

Just by way of one example: In a prior post, I mentioned how the practice of red lining harmed African Americans, as just one example,  and continues to haunt them. Here is one study of the issue. I’ll quote from it a little:

Quote

There is a growing recognition that place matters in determining socioeconomic success in the
United States. Where you grow up is highly consequential for academic performance, economic mobility, and longevity (e.g. Reardon et al 2016; Chetty et al 2014, 2016). There are also striking differences in these same outcomes by race. It is therefore not surprising that researchers have long been interested in the possible role of residential segregation in explaining the wide disparities in outcomes by location (e.g. Cutler and Glaeser 1997; Cutler, Glaeser, and Vigdor 1999; Ananat 2007; Boustan 2011; Chetty and Hendren 2017). Our study focuses on one potentially important channel that could drive both place- and race-based differences, namely access to credit

…………………. 

Neighborhoods were classified based on detailed information about housing age, occupancy, prices, and other related risk-based characteristics. However, non-housing characteristics such as the racial and ethnic makeup appear to have been influential factors as well. As a result, it has been hypothesized that the HOLC maps contributed to institutionalized racial discrimination in lending practices among financial institutions (Jackson 1980) and may have contributed to modern-day differences in neighborhood development

.......................

A voluminous literature studies the channels in which restrictions on access to credit can limit the pathway to economic opportunity for disadvantaged households. 2 In total, that work makes acompelling case that policies that improperly restrict credit are potentially objectionable on the grounds ofboth equity and efficiency. Moreover, entire neighborhoods that are inappropriately deprived credit could suffer from insufficient investment and become further magnets for an array of social problems related to poverty……………..

The FHA created parallel maps that likewise rated neighborhoods on a color-coded A to Dscale and were based on a systematic appraisal process that took the demographic characteristics (race,ethnicity) of neighborhoods into account. Indeed, the 1930s FHA manuals explicitly emphasize“undesirable racial or nationality groups” as one of the underwriting standards.

It is unclear how long the FHA maps were used but FHA manuals continued to include raceand nationality as an appraisal factor thru at least the 1940s

The authors conclude:

Quote

We document a significant and persistent causal effect of the HOLC maps on the racial
composition and housing development of urban neighborhoods. These patterns are consistent with the
hypothesis that the maps directly contributed to disinvestment in poor urban American neighborhoods
with long-run repercussions. We show that being on the lower graded side of D-C boundaries led to rising
racial segregation from 1930 until about 1970 or 1980 before starting to decline thereafter. We also find
this same pattern along C-B borders, revealing for the first time that “yellow-lining” was also an 
important phenomenon. That the pattern begins to revert starting in the 1970s is at least suggestive that
Federal interventions like the Fair Housing Act of 1968, the Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974, and
the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977 may have played a role in reversing the increase in segregation
caused by the HOLC maps. Nevertheless, gaps in racial segregation along both the C-B and D-C borders
remains in 2010, almost three quarters of a century later. Moreover, we also find that the maps had sizable
effects on homeownership rates and house values. Intriguingly, the effects on homeownership, and to a
somewhat lesser extent house values, dissipate over time along the D-C boundary but remain highly
persistent along the C-B boundaries. We believe our results highlight the key role that access to credit
plays on the growth and long-running development of local communities. 

https://www.chicagofed.org/publications/working-papers/2017/wp2017-12

Now keep in mind this is only one example of instutional prejudice or racism. And maybe it’s not even the best example. I only bring it up to show how it often works and how its effects can last for a very long time.

Your analogy here doesn’t remotely address what were talking about here.

On 10/5/2017 at 6:44 PM, Mother Cocanuts said:

Yes, and they chalked the unexplained part up to discrimination, school quality, or career opportunities. Did it ever occur to you that it might no be racism? If you're going to conclude that the unexplained portion of the gap is racism, then you have to show that it's racism.

Okay, I took some time to explain to you, that the researchers in that study controlled for a variety of factors that should have explained the wage gap. But, those factors did not.

Now, given, the historical record in the US, probably the most likely candidate for the gap, after controlling for a variety of factors, is simply racism. And I say things like lack of good schools and employment opportunities are really functions of racism. I wouldn’t really consider them to be exogenous variables here.

Yes, in an ideal world, it would be nice if we had actual variables that could measure racism, every time it occurred. But we don’t have them, and I’m not even sure how we’d go about even constructing them.

You’re basically trying to say that no inferences are allowed. But only direct measurable evidence is allowed. And I pretty much think that is load of horseshit. Again, we have a wage gap, that is not explained once we control for a variety of variables. The gap shouldn’t be there. But it is.

Now if you have a plausible alternative theory of what is going on, then by all means offer it up. But, I have a suspicion that you really don’t have one and are just grasping for straws here.

On 10/5/2017 at 6:44 PM, Mother Cocanuts said:

Yes it did. But like I've said above, can you show that it's racism?

Do you have a better theoretical explanation that explains the facts here? I doubt it.

[Dr. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

How long until Tillerson's out?

Yeah, I've been waiting for @Tywin et al. to offer up his prediction on this one.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

How long until Tillerson's out?

That's kind of a tough one, as he is ostensibly there to grease the wheels on that big Exxon/Russia oil deal that has been mucked up by this " Rusher thing with Trump and Russia". I'd guess that Tillerson will bail after that deal gets sealed or it becomes clear that it's not going to get sealed.  

[Kalbear]

Sounds as if Kelly might resign tomorrow. The leaked phone thing is likely that Trump doesn't want him around. 

[DMC]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Sounds as if Kelly might resign tomorrow. The leaked phone thing is likely that Trump doesn't want him around. 

Where you hearing that?  Seems to me he'll be very difficult to replace.  Who in the hell wants to replace him?  Same goes for Tillerson, except Kelly actually seems competent at his job.

[DMC]

File this under another link I make that may have already been made (I quickly checked, promise!):

4 Political Scientists Think Trump's Presidency is About Dysfunction, Not Authoritarianism

Quote

In many cases, the feared assault on core institutions hasn’t materialized. Trump has not launched a coordinated assault on the judiciary, for instance. In other cases, his efforts have been unsuccessful, even counterproductive. The media is more invigorated, more profitable, and more trusted since his election. The firing of FBI Director James Comey led to the appointment — from within Trump’s own administration, no less — of special counsel Bob Mueller. [...]

Voters on both sides of the aisle show a commitment to the building blocks of American democracy, and they are clear-eyed that it is under threat. In fact, political scientists are more sanguine than the public: On a 1-100 scale, the experts gave the US political system a 72; for voters, it was 60. [...]

Second, and more optimistically, few experts think Trump has significantly undermined the foundations of American democracy since taking office. I tend to agree with them: For all the fears of Trump’s strongman instincts, incompetence and opposition has thus far defined his presidency, and limited its damage.

I'm not a huge fan of Ezra Klein.  But, Kal, I hope now you know where I'm coming from.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, dmc515 said:

File this under another link I make that may have already been made (I quickly checked, promise!):

4 Political Scientists Think Trump's Presidency is About Dysfunction, Not Authoritarianism

I'm not a huge fan of Ezra Klein.  But, Kal, I hope now you know where I'm coming from.

Hanlon's Razor baby. I can buy that, but I'd add that there is an aspect of malice to the stupidity. Maybe a 30/70 split?