U.S. Politics: Having a Good Time

[Zorral]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Clearly he's a big fan of Wonder Woman.

LOL. Here's a good rundown of all the mistakes he made today. God help us when he goes to Vegas tomorrow:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/politics/trump-puerto-rico/index.html

 

Thousand and thousand and THOUSANDs died in Katrina but you only lost 17.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.  How many have died in Puerto Rico of thirst, hunger, medical conditions, lack of communications and transportation the last 12 days?  That nobody hears about because you know heck of a job reasons.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Zorral said:

Thousand and thousand and THOUSANDs died in Katrina but you only lost 17.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.  How many have died in Puerto Rico of thirst, hunger, medical conditions, lack of communications and transportation the last 12 days?  That nobody hears about because you know heck of a job reasons.

The number has already been increased to 34, and it's very likely far more will be coming in because reporting on deaths is basically impossible right now.

[LongRider]

12 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Yeah, if he leaves, he'll just say that he's the "true conservative" and Trump is not or whatever. Republican or not, he's still bad.

If he said that Trump is not a true conservative he'd be right, but so what, anyone can see that, even John Kaisch.  Low hanging fruit, amirite .

[LongRider]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The number has already been increased to 34, and it's very likely far more will be coming in because reporting on deaths is basically impossible right now.

IIRC, it took awhile after Katrina as well because of the many drowned people were difficult to discover for various reasons.  But the Orange Thingy has been to PR now, told everyone what a great job he was doing so now he can move on and forget PR forever.  

[Zorral]

Ay-up.  Knew it was there, coz this is always how it works with these white guys.  And here it is.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/stephen-paddock-abuse-girlfriend_us_59d40429e4b0218923e60bcc?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

I don't know anything more than anyone else, but how many times have guys been abusive, the wife, the girlfriend leaves, and they go berserk, killing her, often killing others, before killing themselves?  Maybe google will tell us how many times a year this happens.

One has wondered all through this why the girlfriend was "out of the country."  Supposedly he wired her $100,000.  Why, we wonder. To get her to come back? If that was the deal she was smart enough to know better.

 

[Week]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Thousand and thousand and THOUSANDs died in Katrina but you only lost 17.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.  How many have died in Puerto Rico of thirst, hunger, medical conditions, lack of communications and transportation the last 12 days?  That nobody hears about because you know heck of a job reasons.

I've heard, anecdotally (grain of salt - YMMV and all that), that ICUs in San Juan had a ~100% death rate due to lack of power and supplies. Looking for an additional source for confirmation.

Trump has put Puerto Rico in a situation where any disagreement on the situation on the ground is tantamount to attacking him personally. Any reporting by CNN, WaPo, NYT, etc. will continue to be attacked as fake news. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Ay-up.  Knew it was there, coz this is always how it works with these white guys.  And here it is.

Way to up the racism there. How about "violent" guys next time out? 

[karaddin]

But we're describing an issue with white male masculinity, not something intrinsic to white men biologically. Its a complicated mix sure, and "straight" and "cis" are also important parts of the puzzle. Given we're talking culture, obviously "American" is too, although there are disturbing trends across different nations - only the US really gets to go this far. A similar thing took place with family annihilations in South Africa that was a major contributor to the fall of apartheid.

It's not remotely racist and you know that, but you just want to cry that and deflect discussion. Shocking.

[Kalbear]

9 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Way to up the racism there. How about "violent" guys next time out? 

Because statistically, the white ethnic group in the US is overwhelmingly more likely to commit mass murder. White, male, either fairly young (18-20s) or 60+. 

Violence per se isn't specifically a likely predictor. White is much better. 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, karaddin said:

But we're describing an issue with white male masculinity, not something intrinsic to white men biologically. Its a complicated mix sure, and "straight" and "cis" are also important parts of the puzzle. Given we're talking culture, obviously "American" is too, although there are disturbing trends across different nations - only the US really gets to go this far. A similar thing took place with family annihilations in South Africa that was a major contributor to the fall of apartheid.

It's not remotely racist and you know that, but you just want to cry that and deflect discussion. Shocking.

The underlying point (and to be fair I think this was first brought up in the Vegas Shooting thread) is that many of these mass shooting killers share a history of abuse when it comes to the women in their lives. Their race is not relevant. This history is not exclusive to "white" mass shooting killers. It is at the very least "remotely racist" to apply this particular proclivity to one race.  

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Because statistically, the white ethnic group in the US is overwhelmingly more likely to commit mass murder. White, male, either fairly young (18-20s) or 60+. 

Violence per se isn't specifically a likely predictor. White is much better. 

But the point being discussed is a commonality among violent men. That they typically have a history of abusing the women in their lives. This cuts across racial lines, and I think you know that. 

[karaddin]

Yes, abusing women in their lives does cut across racial lines. Yet this form of self destruction from failed men very rarely does. Hence the relevance. There is an in depth discussion to be had on the subject, but its not possible to have it if you just want to stomp your feet and cry "racism against whites", an action which is also extremely telling.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

17 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Yes, abusing women in their lives does cut across racial lines. Yet this form of self destruction from failed men very rarely does. Hence the relevance. There is an in depth discussion to be had on the subject, but its not possible to have it if you just want to stomp your feet and cry "racism against whites", an action which is also extremely telling.

Would you like me to provide a list of non-white killers who share this proclivity? Seriously? I'm not riding the merry-go-round with you tonight. If you can't admit that Zorral's sentence was racially problematic, then have at. If we're going to employ political correctness as a general rule in this thread, it should be applied across the board, don't you think? If the idea is to not be offensive then a commonality that exists among all stripes of men should not be applied exclusively to one race.

[Darth Richard II]

51 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Way to up the racism there. How about "violent" guys next time out? 

is this a fucking joke?

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Would you like me to provide a list of non-white killers who share this proclivity? Seriously?

Sure, since you're the one who made the claim. To my knowledge the only one that fits the bill is Omar Shaheen. The San Bernadino shooting doesn't, as a counterexample. 

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm not riding the merry-go-round with you tonight. If you can't admit that Zorral's sentence was not racially problematic, then have at.

Zorral's sentence wasn't racially problematic because white people are not discriminated against based on their proclivity for shooting up places. They aren't profiled as mass murderers. They aren't looked at with fear when they board a plane, or when they use calculus at their plane's seat.

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

If we're going to employ political correctness as a general rule in this thread, it should be applied across the board, don't you think?

This isn't about political correctness.

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

If the idea is to not be offensive then a commonality that exists among all stripes of men should not be applied exclusively to one race.

The idea is not to not be offensive.

[karaddin]

19 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Would you like me to provide a list of non-white killers who share this proclivity? Seriously? I'm not riding the merry-go-round with you tonight. If you can't admit that Zorral's sentence was racially problematic, then have at. If we're going to employ political correctness as a general rule in this thread, it should be applied across the board, don't you think? If the idea is to not be offensive then a commonality that exists among all stripes of men should not be applied exclusively to one race.

We're talking about mass shootings in the United States. It's a very specific kind of crime with a particular profile that the perpetrators tend to fit. I'm not one to dismiss violence against women generally, and not from any race. If you're talking violence and murder more generally then yes it crosses racial lines. It's also not merely an indicator of violence, that's a turn of phrase (that you didn't use, but often comes up in this sort of discussion) that erases the fact that violence against women is itself violence. I don't want people to care about violence against sex workers because it predicts violence against non-sex workers once the piece of shit has worked up confidence, I want them to care about violence against sex workers because sex workers are people and deserve the same dignity and protection as every other human being.

But if we're talking mass shootings, which was the discussion, then the vast majority of the perpetrators fit a profile of failed straight white masculinity. There are exceptions and I don't try to erase them, for example the Pulse perpetrator, and these exceptions tend to have reasons that can be puzzled out, but the general trend we're talking about is pretty reliable. It's not something innate to white men, but is heavily related to being in the dominant social group, which obviously isn't going to apply to other racial groups as a general rule.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

15 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

This isn't about political correctness.

The idea is not to not be offensive.

When is this thread not about political correctness?

 And I found the sentence to be somewhat offensive. This is not exclusively a "white" male problem. It is a male problem.

Outside of that, again, I'm not riding the merry-go-round. You want to defend that sentence, be my guest. 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

When is this thread not about political correctness?

Whenever you're not in it?

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 And I found the sentence to be somewhat offensive. This is not exclusively a "white" male problem. It is a male problem.

I'm sorry that you think you deserve an apology. 

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Outside of that, again, I'm not riding the merry-go-round. You want to defend that sentence, be my guest. 

Sorry, I'm confused; what part of the sentence is problematic? It is simply exceedingly likely in the US that a mass shooter will be white, male, and prone to abusing women. That is the profile of mass shooters in the US and has been since a guy went up into a clock tower 50 years back. Minority mass shootings are not statistically as likely by comparison to the minority population percentages, and female mass shootings are insanely more unlikely. 

If you hear that someone killed many people with firearms, the most likely outcome is that they will be male, white, and abuse women - in that order.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Yeah, I asked for an apology. 

Asking for just a touch less delusion, moreso than anything else.

Since you asked, here's a rather incomplete list of rampage killers in America. Seeing many Hispanic surnames, and at least one Asian. And it doesn't seem to include the aforementioned Mateen or the VA Tech killer, who was Korean. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

[Kalbear]

You did notice that the "Americas" category included Latin America and South America, right? That'd be muy embarrassing if your point about Hispanic rampage killers was because you thought bogota was somewhere in Georgia.