U.S. Politics: Having a Good Time

[Maithanet]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You really haven't though. You've been discussing the definition of racism (which is not a nice thing, but isn't the issue) vs. the racism that is built in to the fundament of US society, and many people have been equating the two.

We're discussing the definition of racism vs institutional racism, and the impact that equating the two has.  How is that not a discussion of racism?

51 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

And that gets to the broader point I’ve made before, that it’s fundamentally important that you separate the two constructs. Same goes with white privilege and racism. Because I can explain white privilege and institutional racism to a white person who is unfamiliar with the concepts and get them to understand and agree that they’re real and a problem that needs to be corrected, but if the starting point is me spitting in their face that they’re automatically a racist, then I know that it’s going to be next to impossible to convert them, and in fact it’s quite likely that I’ll drive them further away.  

I agree with this completely.  When I talk to my conservative family members about white privilege, they are usually very hostile to the idea initially, with a comeback like "nothing was ever handed to me!"  But when I talk to them about how privilege is a lot more subtle than the government sending white people checks every month, they're a lot more open to the idea.  Often they argue that white privilege is something reserved for wealthy people, less so for them.  Which is interesting because they're actually bringing up intersectionality and how advantages of white privilege are much stronger when you also have privileges like wealth and education.

[Bonnot OG]

 

7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

This is fair enough. The problem comes when even when people start trying to be a bit reflective and he just drives any discussion back. There are other piss-people-off-merchants here who don't do that.

 

 

eta: but yes, this is probably not the right place for this.

Show me a person that has been a bit reflective on what has been discussed the last few hours regarding race / racism.

[Mother Cocanuts]

25 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

It's funny how some white people think that black people have their own bias and that the white people that wrote dictionary definitions didn't, or that they themselves don't have a certain bias when it comes to what racism is when they go by a dictionary definition.

This thread just proves that white people are why racism in will not be solved. They're too fragile to discuss race. "OMG, you said all white people are racist and that white people can't be victims of racism! The dictionary says it's this!"

So I guess you're not going to admit that the very video you posted  just contradicted everything you said?

23 minutes ago, Week said:

The path out from being homeless is, by a large, different for white people than people of color.

How?

24 minutes ago, Week said:

Or, consider, when someone says "welfare queen" what image do you think typically comes to mind for most people?

White women. They're the largest recipients of entitlements.

 

22 minutes ago, aceluby said:

The same most groups of people get over similar groups of minorities.  Police interactions, general populace interactions, interactions at homeless shelters....

I mean.... seriously.  This is really a dense question to ask.

If it's such a dense question, why is it that you haven't answered it? The majority of homeless people are white. And if we are to discuss police interaction, I think you may want to read this study by a Harvard professor who happens to be black. (Let me know if you want the reference.)

[Week]

7 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

White women. They're the largest recipients of entitlements.

"Most people" - any analytic response is not what my question was getting at. Clearly, though, you're going to continue to dodge.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

On 10/4/2017 at 7:56 AM, King Ned Stark said:

Are you saying someone in the Republican Party is equivalent to nazi sympathizing?

Her basic position is that if you are critical of those on the left who celebrate violence against nazis, that you are a nazi-sympathizer. If you defend Free Speech, even for Nazis and other fascists, that you are a nazi-sympathizer. So yeah. I'd have to guess that she basically equates Republicans with nazi-sympathizer. 

[Kalbear]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

We're discussing the definition of racism vs institutional racism, and the impact that equating the two has.  How is that not a discussion of racism?

It's not a useful one when someone is wanting to talk about racism as harm. 

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

I agree with this completely.  When I talk to my conservative family members about white privilege, they are usually very hostile to the idea initially, with a comeback like "nothing was ever handed to me!"  But when I talk to them about how privilege is a lot more subtle than the government sending white people checks every month, they're a lot more open to the idea.  Often they argue that white privilege is something reserved for wealthy people, less so for them.  Which is interesting because they're actually bringing up intersectionality and how advantages of white privilege are much stronger when you also have privileges like wealth and education.

White Privilege (and privilege in general) is one of the least effective terms used ever, I agree. The simple word automatically puts people off, even if they are super wealthy and privileged, because being privileged in the US is a Bad Thing. It means you didn't deserve what you have, that you didn't do good on your own, that you basically cheated. 

And mind you, it's totally accurate. But it strikes the wrong conversation with almost everyone. 

12 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

How?

The route for PoC homeless out of homelessness is often through prison. They are far less likely to get a chance with a job, with benefits, and are far more likely to have sentences against them.

12 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

White women. They're the largest recipients of entitlements.

You would be in the minority then, as the welfare queen meme wasn't about a white woman. 

12 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

If it's such a dense question, why is it that you haven't answered it? The majority of homeless people are white. And if we are to discuss police interaction, I think you may want to read this study by a Harvard professor who happens to be black. (Let me know if you want the reference.)

They did answer it. You just didn't understand the answer.

Also, while it's true that the majority of homeless are white, minorities are far more overrepresented in homeless shelters. Especially families, where minority families are actually a larger majority than white people. 

[aceluby]

15 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

If it's such a dense question, why is it that you haven't answered it? The majority of homeless people are white. And if we are to discuss police interaction, I think you may want to read this study by a Harvard professor who happens to be black. (Let me know if you want the reference.)

So you're just going to deny that systemic racism just doesn't exist?

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Her basic position if that if you are critical of those on the left who celebrate violence against nazis, that you are a nazi-sympathizer. If you defend Free Speech, even for Nazis and other fascists, that you are a nazi-sympathizer. So yeah. I'd have to guess that she basically equates Republicans with nazi-sympathizer. 

It's also technically correct, in that you're sympathizing with the Nazis. 

And given that Republicans have not in any way put any kind of stop to what's going on currently in the White House despite having all the power to do so, it's hard to say how they aren't. 

[Bonnot OG]

A friend of mine pointed out that Utah news sources are leaving this story mysteriously absent from their coverage of Utahan victims of the Las Vegas massacre.

https://qsaltlake.com/news/2017/10/03/gay-utahn-killed-boyfriend-hurt-las-vegas-massacre/amp/

And this tribute to all the victims also fails to include Cameron Robinson, the gay guy who was killed and died in his boyfriend's arms.

https://www.facebook.com/uniladmag/videos/3295136823842687/?hc_ref=ART8EmxmmnZXBk05zGZGjMohIFDspHvHOTs6rFC1jWasqLBGuTNXr8jsx8tnYV3W4eo

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is flatly inaccurate. Being the dominate race does not mean that an individual of said race cannot experience racism in a given situation. What it does mean, as I said before, is that it’s highly unlikely that a white person will experience institutional racism.

Yeah, I'm sure Reginald Denny shook off that brick he took to the skull cause he dominates. Just kind of rubbed the side of his head and jumped right back into his truck and drove off without so much as a bandage or a stitch.

[Bonnot OG]

Manhole, at the very least you are a nazi apologist. You have time and time again tried to down play the dangers of nazism in the US and call them cosplay types. Couple that with how you stick up for their speech, which calls to commit genocide, I'd say that is evidence enough that you should at least be looked at with some caution. 

And I have no issue saying current Republicans that support Trump are very much nazi and klan sympathizers since it's well documented that those white supremacists love him and endorse him very vocally. They still support him after he failed miserable to condemn those types and actually called many of them some very fine people.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Yeah, I'm sure Reginald Denny shook off that brick he took to the skull cause he dominates. Just kind of rubbed the side of his head and jumped right back into his truck and drove off without so much as a bandage or a stitch.

What institution threw that brick?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It's also technically correct, in that you're sympathizing with the Nazis. 

And not at all hyperbolic or offensive, I'm sure. Totally fair and accurate.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Kalbear said:

What institution threw that brick?

Did I make that claim? 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

38 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That said, HOLY FUCK is this not about US politics right now.

Wouldn’t you agree that race is one of the major driving forces behind politics in America?

[Dr. Pepper]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is flatly inaccurate. Being the dominate race does not mean that an individual of said race cannot experience racism in a given situation. What it does mean, as I said before, is that it’s highly unlikely that a white person will experience institutional racism.

I agree for the most part, but the problem, as I mentioned before, is that people tend to make sweeping statements about white people that can be offensive, and it’s completely human for people to react that way. So when someone says that white people don’t experience racism or that all mass shootings are done by white men, etc., it can be problematic in the same way as when some white people say that racism doesn’t exist. The latter is clearly worse, but again, it’s all fairly nuanced.

You seem to be mixing up something like general bigotry with racism.  A member of the dominant culture might be the victim of bigotry but not racism.  A black person being mean to a white person at Target isn't an example of racism.

1 hour ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

Interesting. Care to expand?

Therefore, by proxy White people are all racist, right? Because if your definition of racism selects for the statistical advantage of whites as a part of its premise, then there's no way a white person can escape that label. Conceptually speaking, this is garbage because there's no way you can assign attitudes, beliefs, and dominance to skin color alone, but it does make for good semantics.

All white people benefit from white supremacy in some way.  This isn't the same as saying all white people are racist.  

Racism isn't about a statistical advantage.  The quantity of race (or group of people in general) doesn't make them the dominant group.  

30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 

That said, HOLY FUCK is this not about US politics right now.

If racism ain't part of politics, I have no idea where it belongs.  

[Kalbear]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And not at all hyperbolic or offensive, I'm sure. Totally fair and accurate.

Yes, it's absolutely fair and accurate. Why is it not? It might be offensive, but again, I'm sorry that you feel that you deserve an apology for being called a nazi sympathizer when you sympathize with nazis. Maybe...stop sympathizing with nazis so much?

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Did I make that claim? 

When Tywin said that most white people are highly unlikely to experience institutionalized racism and you responded with that, yes, I assume you were using that as a counterexample to how a white person did experience institutionalized racism. Otherwise why would you respond? 

[Kalbear]

Just now, Dr. Pepper said:

If racism ain't part of politics, I have no idea where it belongs.  

 

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wouldn’t you agree that race is one of the major driving forces behind politics in America?

The US politics thread is typically about current events in US politics. When (like we usually do) we diverge from specific events to general talking about things like racism or political systems or slavery or the hilliness of the Ottoman empire, we usually create another topic to allow those who want to talk about general events to not get swamped. I'd recommend creating a topic about "Racism in the US" or something like that. 

[Bonnot OG]

7 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And not at all hyperbolic or offensive, I'm sure. Totally fair and accurate.

Says the guy that pushes false equivalences like antifa are just like the nazis, ignoring the whole racial hatred the nazis have going for them and how they want to systematically exterminate people of color, the disabled, the lgbtq community, jews etc. 

Because that totally isn't offensive and sticking up for them to spread their bullshit to recruit more people into their ideology isn't offensive. And it's totally not offensive to downplay the danger of nazism in the US when they have already killed numerous people in 2017. 

[Morpheus]

The Republican Party as an institution continues to fully support a racist President who has sympathy for white supremacists and neo Nazis. So, yes they do in a way support these things as long as they stand by their man, despite openly and meekly disapproving some of his comments. If they aren't going to meaningfully address the problem, they are part of a problem. Do they all harbor racist sentiments in their hearts? Who is to say? But as long as they feel that politics, alliegence to party, and holding on the presidency are What is most important to them, they have to be held accountable for at least tacitly endorsing the worst aspects of the face of their party.