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Who is the dumbest POV character?


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48 minutes ago, zandru said:

Freeing Jaime was dumb, dumb, dumb. Trusting a man celebrated as having "no honor"? But weirdly, in this case, he did.

Are you sure it wasn't mind control, dream invasion, influence that made her do it? 

I mean there are so many examples of people losing time then making weird decisions

Theon before taking Winterfell

Cat before freeing Jaime 

Jaime before turning back to save Brienne (he's using a weirwood stump as a pillow)

Asha when she's in battle (no weird decision here it's just plain weird)

That's just off the top of my head

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11 hours ago, mankytoes said:

She does plenty of dumb things, but plenty of smart things as well. She's managed to seize power, despite the disadvantages of her gender.

She didn't seize anything because the power was hers by law after Robert's death. It was Ned who failed to seize power but he failed to do it because he trusted Littlefinger who was secretly on Cersei's side and who tricked him into thinking that Gold Cloaks were his. Cersei didn't really do anything vital for this. If you put Hodor in Cersei's place, Ned still fails.

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15 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

She was a fool to trust Littlefinger (along with a bunch of other characters). And to tell Ned to trust Littlefinger. Perhaps if Tyrion didn't recognize her and Ser Rodrik. And she was unnecessarily mean to Jon Snow (at least she doesn't order his death like Cersei did to Robert's bastards) for no reason at all. 

"It should have been you." Well, shite.

Not really,  Littlefinger was a senior government minister, and childhood friend.  She had no reason to think he would play her false.  If my childhood friend was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and told me in confidence that a particular individual had tried to murder my son, I'd believe him.

And, she had worked out correctly that the Lannisters had tried to murder her son.

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5 hours ago, SeanF said:

And, [Catelyn] had worked out correctly that the Lannisters had tried to murder her son.

Exactly! I thought Cat did a great job of putting together motive and opportunity. She was right that finding Bran at the base of that particular tower, where the Terrible Twins had been seen, was pretty damning. She was also right that the attack on comatose Bran had the Lannister stink to it.

What she - and in fact NOBODY ever figured out - was that she'd fingered the wrong Lannister. Joffrey, of all people, did it.

But it took fortnights for Cat to re-engage her brain from her endless vigil and  mourning at Bran's bedside to start putting things together. She doesn't do well under strong, familial emotion. Had she been the "normal" Cat right after the apparent accident, the Lannisters might never have left Winterfell with Robert. Once roused, Catelyn could move fast.

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16 hours ago, zandru said:

Freeing Jaime was dumb, dumb, dumb. Trusting a man celebrated as having "no honor"? But weirdly, in this case, he did.

Jaime wondered about that, too. And he concluded, Catelyn trusted Tyrion to return Sansa, not him. He is thinking about that at the beginning of the journey with Brienne.

However, it was dumb in other ways unrelated to trustworthiness of Jaime. Maybe there would be no Red Wedding if Jaime were still in his cell.

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43 minutes ago, beauty6 said:

However, it was dumb in other ways unrelated to trustworthiness of Jaime. Maybe there would be no Red Wedding if Jaime were still in his cell.

I definitely agree there. Cat's decisions might be subtitled "When Smart Women do Dumb Things."

Also, though I hate to cut Sansa any slack (my bad), I think it's near inevitable. She's being compared with a number of really heroic and brave, truly exceptional folks. The contrasts with her little sister Arya are very dramatic, and the younger Arya always comes out way on top because Arya's not just smart, she's brave, she's gregarious in a way having nothing to do with courtley manners, she has a strong sense of justice and has risked her own life to aid others. Sansa is just ... well, ordinary. Excluding her physical appearance, of course. Whenever Sansa's fans insist "but what would YOU do?", assuming the answer will exonerate Sansa, the message is clear: Sansa has to be judged as just a regular, non-exceptional, non-heroic person. No better than any of us.

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3 minutes ago, zandru said:

 Sansa has to be judged as just a regular, non-exceptional, non-heroic person. No better than any of us.

I am not arguing about her stupidity, no doubt about that. But I like the moments later in the books, when she stretches her "courtesies" to real kindness. As, e.g., with Lancel.  That makes me think higly about her. 

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2 hours ago, beauty6 said:

But I like the moments later in the books, when she stretches her "courtesies" to real kindness. As, e.g., with Lancel.

Looking forward to seeing whether Sansa continues in this vein, or going the Cersei/Littlefinger route.

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9 hours ago, beauty6 said:

Jaime wondered about that, too. And he concluded, Catelyn trusted Tyrion to return Sansa, not him. He is thinking about that at the beginning of the journey with Brienne.

However, it was dumb in other ways unrelated to trustworthiness of Jaime. Maybe there would be no Red Wedding if Jaime were still in his cell.

If Jaime were still in his cell he would probably have been murdered there by Rickard Karstark.  The man wanted vengeance for his dead sons and although Tion Frey and Martyn Lannister were poor replacements for Jaime he wanted blood, they were all he could reach and so he had them killed.

Stannis still gets crushed on the Blackwater, Robb still sends Theon to Pyke setting in motion the whole chain of events that sees Winterfell burned and his betrayal of the Frey alliance by falling into Jeyne Westerling's arms and then marrying her.  So Bolton and Frey still work their schemes, Tywin and Sybell Spicer still hatch their plots, only difference is Robb has the Karstarks and, what, 1,000 - more men.

Cat releasing Jaime has remarkably litlte impact on the politics and course of the war.  I'm not saying the move was a smart one, it's one made in the depths of despair and grief on learning of Bran and Rickon's deaths, but it hardly led to the Red Wedding.

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6 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If Jaime were still in his cell he would probably have been murdered there by Rickard Karstark.  The man wanted vengeance for his dead sons and although Tion Frey and Martyn Lannister were poor replacements for Jaime he wanted blood, they were all he could reach and so he had them killed.

Stannis still gets crushed on the Blackwater, Robb still sends Theon to Pyke setting in motion the whole chain of events that sees Winterfell burned and his betrayal of the Frey alliance by falling into Jeyne Westerling's arms and then marrying her.  So Bolton and Frey still work their schemes, Tywin and Sybell Spicer still hatch their plots, only difference is Robb has the Karstarks and, what, 1,000 - more men.

Cat releasing Jaime has remarkably litlte impact on the politics and course of the war.  I'm not saying the move was a smart one, it's one made in the depths of despair and grief on learning of Bran and Rickon's deaths, but it hardly led to the Red Wedding.

You seem to be better oriented in the situation than me. I just believe that maybe Tywin would not OK the Red Wedding (or any other drastic solution) while Jaime were still in his cell. And Freys might not have acted without his OK, even if they were furious at Robb. Obviously, if Karstark killed Jaime instead od Catelyn releasing him, that would be no improvement.

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On 08/10/2017 at 3:07 PM, Colonel Green said:

People continually misunderstand this.  Catelyn at that point had to either arrest Tyrion or let him go and tell the Lannisters that she's been secretly visiting Ned in King's Landing, which would tip them off about Ned's being onto their conspiracy (based on what Catelyn and Ned believe at that point).

Tip the Lannisters off to what exactly? They would have no idea what Ned and Cat are up to, they would know something is afoot but what? Also Tywin would not invade the RL and Jamie wouldnt be brave enough to attack Ned in the streets while Robert was alive.

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2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Tip the Lannisters off to what exactly? They would have no idea what Ned and Cat are up to, they would know something is afoot but what?

This is a good point. However, we also need to consider Cersei's tendencies to spin out paranoid fantasies and based purely on her own self-serving desires, take violent and overwhelming action. Remember, this is the woman who had ALL of the Stark people killed after she'd crowned her loathsome son Joffrey. (Except for hostages Ned and Sansa, and the Hound's personal action in sparing Jeyne). This is the woman who, much later in the series, decided that young Margaery Tyrell/"Baratheon" must surely have been doing what Cersei has done constantly, taking innumerable lovers to her bed, devised a "frame", tortured and bribed various men into supporting her bogus storyline - and by the time she'd finished happily viewing the torture of an unfortunate singer, seems to have convinced herself that this is what actually happened.

The timing of the other events would be critical. If Robert is still alive when Tyrion returns, Cersei wouldn't yet be fully in charge. So the Stark people would not be dead, Ned would not be injured (no attack by Jaime in revenge), and Ned may have been able to send the girls to safety. But Cersei would work up some fantasy, and act on it, because Tyrion would not yet be Hand and she could browbeat Robert (now there's a viable candidate for the "stupidest" position) into letting her have her way. Then going out for a long drunken boar hunt.

Okay, let's put Robert Baratheon into the competition! I'm not sure he could compete with Victarion, but he's certainly up there.

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8 hours ago, beauty6 said:

You seem to be better oriented in the situation than me. I just believe that maybe Tywin would not OK the Red Wedding (or any other drastic solution) while Jaime were still in his cell. And Freys might not have acted without his OK, even if they were furious at Robb. Obviously, if Karstark killed Jaime instead od Catelyn releasing him, that would be no improvement.

It's debatable whether Tywin would have okayed the RW with Jaime a captive.  You would have to reckon on the possibility of retaliation and that, however blameless Jaime was for those events and however dishonourable it would be to murder him in revenge, passions would be running high and it would be a risk.  It's then a straight trade-off between pragmatism: we've already lost the war and Edmure is a hostage so if we touch Jaime Tywin-my-middle-name-is-rains-of-Castamere is going to exterminate every single one of us so let's bend the knee and keep his son safe; and full on Karstark style blood for blood revenge regardless of the consequences (and look at what those were for Lord Rickard).

Point is Frey only turns to plotting when Robb breaks their alliance and dishonours him by marrying a Westerling and Bolton only starts plotting agasint Robb when Winterfell is lost and Stannis defeated on the Blackwater.  Catelyn releasing Jaime could have had a big impact if he had led Lannister armies to glorious victories agaisnt the Starks and Tullys or the Barratheons but that's not the story that GRRM wrote.  Catelyn releasing Jaime has remarkably little impact on things other than to cost Robb the Karstarks and deepen the air of gloom around the Stark cause. 

What lost the war for Robb was 1) sending Theon to Pyke and this losing WF and apparently his next two heirs - Bran and Rickon, 2) Balon launching his strike and Robb losing the North - again triggered by Robb releasing Theon instead of keeping him close as Catelyn urged, 3) Robb marrying Jeyne Westerliing and breaking the Frey alliance, 4) poor old Edmure unwittingly halting Tywin's attempt to move back to the Westerlands and thus foiling Robb's planned showdown which in turn gave time for 5) Stannis getting smashed on the Blackwater and the emergence of the militarily and poitically vastly superior Lannister-Tyrell alliance.

2 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Tip the Lannisters off to what exactly? They would have no idea what Ned and Cat are up to, they would know something is afoot but what? Also Tywin would not invade the RL and Jamie wouldnt be brave enough to attack Ned in the streets while Robert was alive.

The Lannisters suspect Robert has appointed Ned as Hand because he intends to move against them and put Cersei aside.  It's right there on page in the Bran chapter immediately before Jaime throws him out the window.

Couple that with the fact that both Jaime and Cersei obviously know they tried to kill Bran and the apparent reason for Catelyn's secret visit to KL is to warn Ned of what she has learned or suspects.  There is simply no credible reason for the wife of the Hand of the King to make a secret visit half the length of the kingdom to her husband unless it is for exactly the purpose she makes it - to tell him of what she has learned and allow him to plan his next moves agaisnt his enemies without them being aware he is making those plans.

Plus Tywin sends Gregor Clegane to ravage the Riverlands while Robert is alive and well.  How is he to know Robert is out hunting in the Kingswood at the time? 

And Robert is both alive and well and present in the Red Keep when Jaime does accost Ned in the streets intending to kill him.....

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

2) Balon launching his strike and Robb losing the North - again triggered by Robb releasing Theon instead of keeping him close as Catelyn urged,

There! Another plus for Catelyn's political acumen! thanks.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Lannisters suspect Robert has appointed Ned as Hand because he intends to move against them and put Cersei aside.  It's right there on page in the Bran chapter immediately before Jaime throws him out the window.

I'd forgotten that, and thanks for bringing it up. You've got a much better read on the scenario of Cat NOT apprehending Tyrion than I did; kudos!

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Oh, it's Vic. All day long. He literally has no idea and seems to be very easily manipulated. I suppose the Jury is out on Areo Hotah.... It would be wrong to include Hodor, clearly. 

Sansa is/was very naive. It wouldn't be fair to call her stupid when 'conditioned' would be a better description. She just needs to learn the hard way.

I think Selyse Florent is verging on stupid. She literally has nothing of any value to add to...anything. 

 

Spoiler

Arthor Karstark could easily be described as stupid. Perhaps along with Hosteen Frey if Stannis is to be believed. 

 

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On 10/8/2017 at 3:10 PM, Angel Eyes said:

She was a fool to trust Littlefinger (along with a bunch of other characters).

Littlefinger was a childhood friend of hers.  She had no real reason not to trust him.

Quote

Perhaps if Tyrion didn't recognize her and Ser Rodrik. And she was unnecessarily mean to Jon Snow (at least she doesn't order his death like Cersei did to Robert's bastards) for no reason at all. 

"It should have been you." Well, shite.

That has nothing to do with anything in this thread.

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