Who is the dumbest POV character?

[The Sunland Lord]

16 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Sansa is the dumbest, in my opinion.

Some other dumb people:

1. Patch Face
2. Gregor
3. Vic (pov)
4. Arya (pov)
5. Aegon Frey
6. Hodor
7. Wundar Weg
8. Qwentyn
9. Lyanna
10. Brandon

Come on some of the characters you mention are mentally ill, that's not the same as stupid.

Theon is not the brightest isn't he? I mean he is usurping Winterfell and really expects people there to love him and wonders why are they so "ungrateful".

Just a thought.

 

[Winter's Cold]

Dontos Hollard. Lancel Lannister. Robert Arryn. 

All of them are nobles. How does that disprove my point that Sansa looks down on common folk? It's a negative trait that she acquired from Catelyn.

Childish squabbling sure. Joffrey tried to murder her sister and she betrays both her sister and mother for him. Later in Storm of Swords, where Sansa is supposed to be in her post brat phase she compares Arya to Margaery and thinks of how unsatisfactory of a sister Arya was. Sana is kind and compassionate? Doesn't seem to be the case for her own family. 

[Danelle]

On 10/5/2017 at 6:15 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Let's talk about Catelyn.  I disagreed with her decisions to [a] arrest Tyrion and (b) release Jaime kingslayer from captivity.  Both are more an act of selfishness than outright lack of intelligence.  The first, yeah, I guess you can say it was dumb.  I am saying it is more an act of selfishness.  The second one, the release of Jaime to x-change for her daughters, is just extreme selfishness.  She knew what it meant and the consequences it may lead to and she went ahead anyway. 

 

I agree about Catelyn, I disagree about Sansa.

[Danelle]

On 10/6/2017 at 7:12 PM, SeanF said:

Arianne is certainly not stupid, although her father has kept her ignorant. 

But isn't that a stupid decision coming from a cunning man as Doran?

Arianne is acting in a particular way, which may seem less effective but it seems to her that she has no other alternative, since she is mislead to believe that Quentyn will take her place as Doran's heir. Trusting and conspiring with the Sand Snakes is definitely a stupid decision but none of this would have happened if Doran had decided to trust Arianne.

And then there is Quentyn, the prince with absolutely no charisma, who was sent along with a few men across the world to woo a girl who had

• been sold to the dothraki and survived
• brought the dragons back and survived
• entered the HOTU and survived
• attacked Astapor and survived
• conquered Meereen and survived

Whereas Dany's suitors presented her with gifts that had value sentimental or political,

• Drogo had his dothraki which would help Viserys take his throne back
• Xaro has money
• Daario is handsome and a skilled warrior
• Xhizdar will bring her peace

all Quentyn can give her is a parchment. 

If Arianne and Quentyn are to be blamed for stupid actions, then Doran deserves part of the blame as well.

  

[cgrav]

Aerys Oakheart. Arianne Martell. Quentyn Martell.

And if we're counting pro/epi POVs, then Merrett Frey and Maester Cressen. 

But Aerys and Arianne were the only POVs where I was like "wtf are you guys thinking?" the entire time. Quentyn's determination is admirable, but approaching the dragons was... less than advisable.

As for Victarion, I know he gets called dumb, but I don't really see him make poor decisions. He's practical to a fault, it seems, and makes quick, results-oriented decisions. His tentative trust in Moqorro and quasi-conversion show that he's got a more open mind than we're led to expect from a principled Ironborn. Thus far he's done what he needed to do to get where he wanted, and that's a hell of a lot more than most characters do in a mere few chapters.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Danelle said:

Trusting and conspiring with the Sand Snakes is definitely a stupid decision but none of this would have happened if Doran had decided to trust Arianne.

To be fair that's an awful big secret to give to a rebellious teenager no? She could have ruined it all. And Doran didn't know she thought he meant to name Quentyn his heir & set her aside. She eavedrops & reads a letter (IIRC) that wasn't hers to read & comes to her own conclusion. When she finally tells Doran what she believes he does then tell her the truth. 

1 hour ago, Danelle said:

all Quentyn can give her is a parchment

Well and an ally in Westeros. 

[Danelle]

5 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair that's an awful big secret to give to a rebellious teenager no? She could have ruined it all. And Doran didn't know she thought he meant to name Quentyn his heir & set her aside. She eavedrops & reads a letter (IIRC) that wasn't hers to read & comes to her own conclusion. When she finally tells Doran what she believes he does then tell her the truth. 

Well and an ally in Westeros. 

Well Arianne was quite old for westerosi standards. He did trust Quentyn but he is reluctant to confide to Arianne? He never even tried to tell her that he had plans for her. He just let her grow old and remain unmarried.It was a risk to send Quentyn to Essos but he took it. Why not risk trusting Arianne instead of treating her like a child?

Quote

"The pact was sealed in secret. I meant to tell you when you were old enough . . . when you came of age, I thought, but . . ."

"I am three-and-twenty, for seven years a woman grown."

 "I know. If I kept you ignorant too long, it was only to protect you. Arianne, your nature . . . to you, a secret was only a choice tale to whisper to Garin and Tyene in your bed of a night. Garin gossips as only the orphans can, and Tyene keeps nothing from Obara and the Lady Nym. And if they knew . . . Obara is too fond of wine, and Nym is too close to the Fowler twins. And who might the Fowler twins confide in? I could not take the risk."

It wasn't just the letter that she read but his behaviour towards her, he alienated his daughter

Quote

She gave him no chance to reply. "I know it is my duty to provide an heir for Dorne, I have never been forgetful of that. I would have wed, and gladly, but the matches that you brought to me were insults. With every one you spit on me. If you ever felt any love for me at all, why offer me to Walder Frey?"

 

At the time the ally in Westeros meant very little to Dany. 

Quote

Prince Quentyn answered him. "Dorne is fifty thousand spears and swords, pledged to our queen's service."

"Fifty thousand?" mocked Daario. "I count three."

Daario can count, so does Dany.

Things change and Dany is no longer a child in Pentos but Queen of Meereen, and as Quentyn admits Dorne needs her desperately

Quote

Their prince went to one knee. "Your Grace, I must entreat you. My father's strength is failing, but his devotion to your cause is as strong as ever. If my manner or my person have displeased you, that is my sorrow, but—"

It would have been wise if Doran had sent a group of Dornishmen as spies in Dany's court to gather information on the queen and then send Quentyn with an offer of alliance. For some reason Doran expected Dany to abandon everything and follow a stranger. But she had an obligation to her people.

Quote

“It would please me if he had turned up with these fifty thousand swords he speaks of. Instead he brings two knights and a parchment. Will a parchment shield my people from the Yunkai’i? If he had come with a fleet …

"Sunspear has never been a sea power, Your Grace."

"No." Dany knew enough of Westerosi history to know that. Nymeria had landed ten thousand ships upon Dorne's sandy shores, but when she wed her Dornish prince she had burned them all and turned her back upon the sea forever. "Dorne is too far away. To please this prince, I would need to abandon all my people. You should send him home."

Doran's plan made sense when it was conducted at the Water Gardens, when his precious ally, Oberyn was still alive but there are always other factors to consider. Daenerys is not Viserys, just like the Sand Snakes are not Oberyn. A queen with Cersei's attitude would have gladly turn her back to Meereen to follow another ally, but Daenerys Targaryen would never do that. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

34 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Arianne was quite old for westerosi standards. He did trust Quentyn but he is reluctant to confide to Arianne? He never even tried to tell her that he had plans for her. He just let her grow old and remain unmarried.It was a risk to send Quentyn to Essos but he took it. Why not risk trusting Arianne instead of treating her like a child

I was meaning why Doran wouldn't have told her when she was younger. I think after that it became a vicious cycle. Arianne believed he was trying to set her aside. Instead of asking she acted out in turn making her father believe she is rebellious & immature & not to be trusted with such information. 

 

36 minutes ago, Danelle said:

At the time the ally in Westeros meant very little to Dany. 

Well if her ultimate plan was to conquer Westeros an ally in Westeros should have meant alot to her. 

 

36 minutes ago, Danelle said:

Doran's plan made sense when it was conducted at the Water Gardens, when his precious ally, Oberyn was still alive but there are always other factors to consider. Daenerys is not Viserys, just like the Sand Snakes are not Oberyn. A queen with Cersei's attitude would have gladly turn her back to Meereen to follow another ally, but Daenerys Targaryen would never do that

I agree. I think at one point Doran's plan may have worked beautifully. He assumed too many things incorrectly & thus his plan failed. 

[winter daughter]

5 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

All of them are nobles. How does that disprove my point that Sansa looks down on common folk? It's a negative trait that she acquired from Catelyn.

As I said before She was the only highborn lady that joined the common folk in the sept and sang with them all the while holding an old washer's woman hand. so it seems like in the second book she doesn't look down on them anymore.

5 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Later in Storm of Swords, where Sansa is supposed to be in her post brat phase she compares Arya to Margaery and thinks of how unsatisfactory of a sister Arya was. Sana is kind and compassionate? Doesn't seem to be the case for her own family. 

And yet in the same chapter she tells us she wants a daughter who looks like Arya, her not beautiful and unsatisfactory sister.

[Angel Eyes]

3 hours ago, Danelle said:

But isn't that a stupid decision coming from a cunning man as Doran?

Arianne is acting in a particular way, which may seem less effective but it seems to her that she has no other alternative, since she is mislead to believe that Quentyn will take her place as Doran's heir. Trusting and conspiring with the Sand Snakes is definitely a stupid decision but none of this would have happened if Doran had decided to trust Arianne.

And then there is Quentyn, the prince with absolutely no charisma, who was sent along with a few men across the world to woo a girl who had

• been sold to the dothraki and survived
• brought the dragons back and survived
• entered the HOTU and survived
• attacked Astapor and survived
• conquered Meereen and survived

Whereas Dany's suitors presented her with gifts that had value sentimental or political,

• Drogo had his dothraki which would help Viserys take his throne back
• Xaro has money
• Daario is handsome and a skilled warrior
• Xhizdar will bring her peace

all Quentyn can give her is a parchment. 

If Arianne and Quentyn are to be blamed for stupid actions, then Doran deserves part of the blame as well.

  

I agree with the Doran is to blame part. How long was he going to wait to push the match with Viserys? Doran would be throwing Arianne away on a psychopath and by the time Viserys gathers an army (if he can), Arianne would be too old to have children and her line would end. He should have tried Willas Tyrell or Edmure Tully; both are about the same age, a match with Willas could heal the wounds over Willas' injuries received against Oberyn and a match with Edmure could tie the Martells closer to the realm, since Edmure, as a Tully, is connected to the Starks and Arryns.

[the trees have eyes]

7 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Dontos Hollard. Lancel Lannister. Robert Arryn. 

All of them are nobles. How does that disprove my point that Sansa looks down on common folk? It's a negative trait that she acquired from Catelyn.

Childish squabbling sure. Joffrey tried to murder her sister and she betrays both her sister and mother for him. Later in Storm of Swords, where Sansa is supposed to be in her post brat phase she compares Arya to Margaery and thinks of how unsatisfactory of a sister Arya was. Sana is kind and compassionate? Doesn't seem to be the case for her own family. 

Dontos, Lancel, Robert Arryn.  All helpless in one way or another.  Should compassion only be judged worthy if it meets a particular class criteria of yours?  I hope you'll allow that you are much more likely to meet nobles when you are at Court or in the Castle of a Lord.  Sure, you could run away and play at swords with the butcher's boy but that's doing what you are not supposed to and Sansa is a goody two-shoes and very much teacher's (Septa Mordane) pet.

She betrays both her sister and her mother for him?  I think you're on the wrong forum, we're discusssing ASOIAF here.  She told Ned the truth of what happened on the Trident but bottled out in front of a room of people and said she didn't remember.

She compares Margaery to Arya, yes, so what?  Do you not have siblings?  It is much easier to like a friend sometimes than a sibling as, afer all, you get to choose your friends and you make friends with people who have similar interests and who are like you.  Sansa likes her songs and her dresses and the Court at KL, Arya plays with swords and catching cats and wants to go back to WF and Old Nan and Hodor.  Ned even acknowledges himself they are as different as the sun and the moon.  Surely you can see Margaery would be the kind of friend or sister Sansa would relate to much more easily than Arya.  And please don't inflate her sibling rivalry and squabbling with Arya into some lack of caring for her own family, that's plain wrong.

[SeanF]

16 hours ago, Danelle said:

But isn't that a stupid decision coming from a cunning man as Doran?

Arianne is acting in a particular way, which may seem less effective but it seems to her that she has no other alternative, since she is mislead to believe that Quentyn will take her place as Doran's heir. Trusting and conspiring with the Sand Snakes is definitely a stupid decision but none of this would have happened if Doran had decided to trust Arianne.

And then there is Quentyn, the prince with absolutely no charisma, who was sent along with a few men across the world to woo a girl who had

• been sold to the dothraki and survived
• brought the dragons back and survived
• entered the HOTU and survived
• attacked Astapor and survived
• conquered Meereen and survived

Whereas Dany's suitors presented her with gifts that had value sentimental or political,

• Drogo had his dothraki which would help Viserys take his throne back
• Xaro has money
• Daario is handsome and a skilled warrior
• Xhizdar will bring her peace

all Quentyn can give her is a parchment. 

If Arianne and Quentyn are to be blamed for stupid actions, then Doran deserves part of the blame as well.

  

Yes.

Arianne surely needs to know what he intends for her.   If for no other reason, she is legal heir, and he's an increasingly sick man.  How can she pick up the pieces if he were suddenly to die?

[SeanF]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

To be fair that's an awful big secret to give to a rebellious teenager no? She could have ruined it all. And Doran didn't know she thought he meant to name Quentyn his heir & set her aside. She eavedrops & reads a letter (IIRC) that wasn't hers to read & comes to her own conclusion. When she finally tells Doran what she believes he does then tell her the truth. 

Well and an ally in Westeros. 

A lot of trouble would have been saved, if she had confronted Doran over the letter years previously.

However, look at it from her point of view.  She has good reason to believe that she has been disinherited, both due to the terms of the letter which she read, and in view of her father's refusal to allow any suitable husband to propose to her.  She may well have thought that things would be made even worse for her if she were to complain - she could be exiled, imprisoned, perhaps executed.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

A lot of trouble would have been saved, if she had confronted Doran over the letter years previously.

However, look at it from her point of view.  She has good reason to believe that she has been disinherited, both due to the terms of the letter which she read, and in view of her father's refusal to allow any suitable husband to propose to her.  She may well have thought that things would be made even worse for her if she were to complain - she could be exiled, imprisoned, perhaps executed.

I agree. I understand were both of them were coming from & think alot of trouble could have been avoided if either of them had decided to communicate better with each other. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

A lot of trouble would have been saved, if she had confronted Doran over the letter years previously.

However, look at it from her point of view.  She has good reason to believe that she has been disinherited, both due to the terms of the letter which she read, and in view of her father's refusal to allow any suitable husband to propose to her.  She may well have thought that things would be made even worse for her if she were to complain - she could be exiled, imprisoned, perhaps executed.

This is why we blame Doran.

[The Commentator]

The list of dumb people is short and Sansa Stark tops that short list of dumb people.

[SunfyreTheGolden]

Victarion Greyjoy

[Darth Sidious]

Robin Arryn is actually somewhat smart for his age.  He knows his relatives are scheming against him.  I say somewhat because he has not caught on to Sansa's slowly poisoning him.  He's not dumb. 

[Adaneth]

On 17/10/2017 at 5:02 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

The list of dumb people is short and Sansa Stark tops that short list of dumb people.

I agree. Lol

Who's the most tragic character, I wonder? I really do feel so much for Quentyn and I think Stannis is another candidate.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

39 minutes ago, Caterina Sforza said:

I agree. Lol

Who's the most tragic character, I wonder? I really do feel so much for Quentyn and I think Stannis is another candidate.

Out of curiosity why do you feel for Stannis?