Gun Control discussion

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Would a group of republicans really have been primarily thinking of Cromwell when drafting their constitution? I'd have thought Charles trying to arrest MPs in the Houses of Parliament would have been more their thing.

From what I read it was kind of a big deal to them. 

18 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Also while Cromwell did a lot of repressing I don't think he really did a lot of taking away small arms. It was more that he repeatedly demonstrated that hastily raised militias really don't tend to do well against professional soldiers.

I believe he didn't take them away, but he outlawed a certain group from possessing them at all. It's been a while since I read it so forgive me if I mess up the details, but basically Cromwell from what I remember defeated the militias and then essentially outlawed their creation entirely. 

[ljkeane]

16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

From what I read it was kind of a big deal to them. 

Fair enough. I did some searching and found some quotes from Hamilton basically contrasting Cromwell with Washington.

In that vein I can see why the example of Cromwell might have factored into the post revolution American concerns with standing armies. I'm not sure he's a great example of the benefits of widespread access to firearms and militias as checks on tyranny though. He basically rose to power through trying that and then demonstrated it's not very effective against well trained and prepared opposition.

[TrueMetis]

3 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

What does any of this have to do with me? Have you seen me forget to switch from semi-auto when I'm readying my gun? Have you seen me take a long time to load my gun? How many others have you seen do this? Your assessment as it relates to my experience with guns or that of other gun owners means jack shit.

Yeah sure I get it, you're a natural super-soldier who isn't effected by stress and adrenaline at all. I don't need to see you as an individual, you've already admitted to having no training or experience. So I'm not going to take your word that your some type of outlier. Especially since not having been in a situation like this you don't know any better than anyone else how you will react.

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And I've seen people with no formal training beat the shit out of people who have had training.

The first time they go into a fight? Cause I fucking doubt it. And if you're talking about people who have been in a lot of fights. Well that's a guy with training. I don't care if the training if formal or informal.

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No, this is the dumbest thing ever read. If you've read above, baxus already asked me if I'd be able to remain calm. I'm not you, so stop projecting. Of course, there are people who can forget things in high stress situations without training. And, there are people who can remain perfectly calm in high stress situations. I consider myself to be the latter. But whatever I do lack in "psychological preparedness," I'll take that risk.

You consider yourself the latter. You've never, by your own admission, been in such a situation but you're perfectly willing to put yourself and potentially other people lives at risk because you think for no reason you can handle it and remain "perfectly calm", sure. You have no reason at all to believe this because no one really knows exactly how they will react until they are put in such a situation, but yeah I'll take your word. And because you say so I'll ignore all the evidence that shows the vast majority of people react very poorly in stressful situations.

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My reflexes are fine.

Right, I'm sure your reflexes for doing something you barely ever do and haven't been extensively trained in are honed to perfection. The instinctive reactions necessary for a gunfight aren't something people just have. Except some very basic ones reflexes need to be practiced or you lose them. This being pretty much anything more difficult than "move away from thing hurting me".

3 hours ago, baxus said:

Finally, a perspective of someone with proper training.

Well the start of proper training, between everything it'll be like 5 years before they allow me in a combat situation at a minimum.

[SerHaHa]

If you guys discussing Cromwell/etc want to read some interesting stuff about how difficult it was for America to raise troops and arm them in the first conflicts (and potential conflicts, also one of the first potential acts of succession that President Washington had to march to put down), I have an excellent source material collection of  this I can lend you to read, a lot of similar threads to your posts.  PM me a contact if you're interested.

 

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TrueMetis - snip

TrueMetis - you have the makings of a great soldier based on that mindset, and if you follow it through with action, IMO.  Story time 2 - my direct anscestor was tried and convicted of supplying arms and other logistical support  to Louis Riel during his Metis/NorthWest rebellion. 

[Seli]

3 hours ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

No, you never made the claim. But you did claim that going to a firing-range to fire off a few shots didn't seem like enough. So in a way, you are kind of making that claim or at least insinuating it.

...

 

There is an basic issue, in most self-defence scenarios you already start at a disadvantage. Range practice might be enough in a situation where you are fully aware and certain that an armed individual with full intent to harm you is on their way. In any other situation you will need time to asses, to switch modes, to convince yourself, to wake up, to actually stop what you were doing. All while the other person is already focussed and ready.

 

edit: And a nice abstract of a (limited study) showing how inefficient unprepared gun-carriers can be in self-defence:

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Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05).

from this abstract: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2008.143099?journalCode=ajph

 

[TrueMetis]

28 minutes ago, SerHaHa said:

TrueMetis - you have the makings of a great soldier based on that mindset, and if you follow it through with action, IMO.  Story time 2 - my direct anscestor was tried and convicted of supplying arms and other logistical support  to Louis Riel during his Metis/NorthWest rebellion. 

Thank you, and that's very cool.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Well, I know someone who truly believes ISIS is going to invade Rural Pennsylvania ANY day now, so he might not be that far off.

It's so weird listening to NPR and hearing all these callers say that this will happen any day now, or how the government is going to take away everyone's guns and round up all the Christians and place them in FEMA camps. 

[Darth Richard II]

3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It's so weird listening to NPR and hearing all these callers say that this will happen any day now, or how the government is going to take away everyone's guns and round up all the Christians and place them in FEMA camps. 

Yeah they're going to convert WalMarts into Muslin conversion centers or something, right?

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

1 hour ago, SerHaHa said:

 

-long post-

Interesting stuff, thanks! 

[Mother Cocanuts]

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Yeah sure I get it, you're a natural super-soldier who isn't effected by stress and adrenaline at all. I don't need to see you as an individual, you've already admitted to having no training or experience. So I'm not going to take your word that your some type of outlier. Especially since not having been in a situation like this you don't know any better than anyone else how you will react.

You're seeing only what you want to see. I don't care if you believe me. (And by the way, I said that I've never been provoked into pointing my gun at someone and shooting them, not that I haven't been in highly stressful situations.)

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

The first time they go into a fight? Cause I fucking doubt it. And if you're talking about people who have been in a lot of fights. Well that's a guy with training. I don't care if the training if formal or informal.

No it wasn't his first fight. But that doesn't matter because the issue was whether he was trained in mix martial arts. So no, being in a lot of fights is not training--it's experience.

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

You consider yourself the latter. You've never, by your own admission, been in such a situation but you're perfectly willing to put yourself and potentially other people lives at risk because you think for no reason you can handle it and remain "perfectly calm", sure. You have no reason at all to believe this because no one really knows exactly how they will react until they are put in such a situation, but yeah I'll take your word. And because you say so I'll ignore all the evidence that shows the vast majority of people react very poorly in stressful situations.

I have reason to believe it because I've been in highly stressful situations. I know myself. Contrary to your dogma, I do know how I'd react. (I have decades of experience with myself.) I've never been burned, but you best believe I'd know how to react. Just because I've never been burned doesn't mean that I haven't experienced similar stimuli, like other forms of pain. You're still projecting your psychology on to me. I don't care if you take me at my word. (Your judgement on how I think and respond is useless to me.) And as it concerns my reasons for owning a gun, the psychology of the masses has never been relevant. I am the only authority on my psychology and if you want to liken me to others because of a study of which i was no part, then be my guest. It doesn't make you any less false.

1 hour ago, TrueMetis said:

Right, I'm sure your reflexes for doing something you barely ever do and haven't been extensively trained in are honed to perfection.

Yes. Because the reflexes necessary in a "gunfight" are unique to just those situations.

1 hour ago, Seli said:

There is an basic issue, in most self-defence scenarios you already start at a disadvantage. Range practice might be enough in a situation where you are fully aware and certain that an armed individual with full intent to harm you is on their way. In any other situation you will need time to asses, to switch modes, to convince yourself, to wake up, to actually stop what you were doing. All while the other person is already focussed and ready.

The issue is not basic. The issue is abstract. Because there's no set standard as to how well an individual would respond with or without training. All I can speak to is my temperament; and my knowledge of guns and shooting is sufficient enough for me to keep one at my home. There seems to be this misconception that my reasons for owning a gun are subject to this thread's vote. They are not. I already own a gun--several of them in fact. My responses are a courtesy not recompense. As TerraPrime mentioned, the only justification for a gun owner is "because I can." I don't mind giving my reasons, but when it becomes an issue of whether others can "take me at my word," there's an illusion that their preferences must be met. Their preferences need not be met; only mine because it's my guns and my home. You don't have confidence in my competence? Don't visit.

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

(And by the way, I said that I've never been provoked into pointing my gun at someone and shooting them, not that I haven't been in highly stressful situations.)

I have reason to believe it because I've been in highly stressful situations.

Yep, I've done raids in World of Warcraft too, so I figure I'm pretty set to deal with a firefight. Once you've taken down the Lich King on hard mode with only a 25% boost, you pretty well know how you're going to react to anything life throws at you. 

[Darth Richard II]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Yep, I've done raids in World of Warcraft too, so I figure I'm pretty set to deal with a firefight. Once you've taken down the Lich King on hard mode with only a 25% boost, you pretty well know how you're going to react to anything life throws at you. 

kek

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

gg lulz.

[Mother Cocanuts]

29 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yep, I've done raids in World of Warcraft too, so I figure I'm pretty set to deal with a firefight. Once you've taken down the Lich King on hard mode with only a 25% boost, you pretty well know how you're going to react to anything life throws at you. 

I've never played World of Warcraft. (I've spent most of my time going to school, playing sports, shooting targets and getting laid.) Your jab may have landed if you didn't get Carpal Tunnel from all that Warcraft you play. If there's anything I can do, please turn to someone else.

[Darth Richard II]

One, holy not getting the joke batman.

Two. What the fuck did that last sentence even mean?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Mother Cocanuts said:

I've never played World of Warcraft. (I've spent most of my time going to school, playing sports, shooting targets and getting laid.) Your jab may have landed if you didn't get Carpal Tunnel from all that Warcraft you play. If there's anything I can do, please turn to someone else.

Wow, that sounds super stressful too! Not as tough as beating Anub'Arak with zero deaths or earning the Immortal achievement, but I can see how it could be really bad. I can see how playing lacrosse has prepared you for a home invasion. Or was it worry about being able to achieve an erection?

[Mother Cocanuts]

4 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

One, holy not getting the joke batman.

I got the joke: it just wasn't funny.

4 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Two. What the fuck did that last sentence even mean?

"Holy not getting the joke batman."

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

I can see how playing lacrosse has prepared you for a home invasion.

Not as much as World of Warcraft could. But you can speak to that better than I can.

6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Or was it worry about being able to achieve an erection?

Hey, we all have our faults. Luckily for me, I have my blue pills ready. Though just between you and me, I have felt a tingle every time I grasp my piece.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Mother Cocanuts said:

Not as much as World of Warcraft could. But you can speak to that better than I can.

Look, you have to be ready for spawns coming in at any direction, be prepared to move out of the fire and keep your DPS up at all times. I'm sure that curling or whatever other sport you played was just as effective in being able to deal with armed assailants. 

Just now, Mother Cocanuts said:

Hey, we all have our faults. Luckily for me, I have my blue pills ready. Though just between you and me, I have felt a tingle every time I grasp my piece.

I would have taken you for a red pill kind of guy.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Mother Cocanuts said:

Hey, we all have our faults. Luckily for me, I have my blue pills ready. Though just between you and me, I have felt a tingle every time I grasp my piece.

You should probably have that looked at.

[OldGimletEye]

On 10/6/2017 at 7:59 PM, Kalbear said:

I would have taken you for a red pill kind of guy.

You owe me a new computer screen, as I spit out my coke all over it, reading this.