Lannisters have no gold???

[SUPCOM0356]

Can someone explain to me why D&D made the Lannister gold mines empty and conflated the debt of the Iron Throne/Crown with the debt of House Lannister? I'm pretty sure I've read that GRRM has said explicitly that the gold mines in the books are alive and well. Also, the Crown is actually in debt to House Lannister. I think I recall Kevan even making a comment about paying the Iron Bank off with Lannister gold on behalf of the crown. Was it just to give Jaime a reason later on to need to attack Highgarden and take their gold? Or was it just because D&D couldn't understand how the Crown could be in debt when the Lannisters had a bunch of money?

I have a great many other things that irked me, but this one has been on my mind for awhile, just curious what others think about this and other random unnecessary changes to the story between the show and the books.

[jcmontea]

Who knows really. But probably to set up the attack on highgarden plot.

also the crown is in debt to house lannister as well in the show so that can’t be the reason why they made that change. 

I don’t care about the change anymore. I did back in season 4 but i felt much better about the change after this season since it actually had plot impact and was relevant versus being a change just to make a change. 

[Apoplexy]

My guess would be to justify the Lannisters not wasting resources defending Casterly Rock. The show probably doesn't have much more to do with Casterly Rock or has a plan about reestablishing the wealth of that region by some other means.

[falcotron]

They didn't conflate the debt. As you said, the crown still owes money to the Lannisters. That's a separate debt. And if the crown can't pay that money back (which they can't), the Lannisters' main asset is toxic: all of their money is tied up in loans that are never going to be repaid. So, they're near bankrupt for the same reason as a bank whose money was tied up in defaulted mortgages a decade ago.

Anyway, I think part of the reason to make that change is to make importance of the crown debt to the Lannisters clearer. The books mention how much the crown has borrowed from the Lannisters, but China isn't in trouble today because they've lent the US so much money, so, what's the difference? In a book, you can expect your readers to have some basic background understanding, and you can answer things subtly, but on a show, you have to make it clear. Take away the Lannisters' other asset so it's obvious that the crown debt is their biggest asset, and then have someone mention that explicitly, and now the audience gets it and you can use it to drive things.

I don't think they did this to set up for Jaime sacrificing Casterly Rock to Tyrion four years later. They don't really plan that far ahead except as a basic outline. But it did make it easier for them to highlight the difference between the individual Lannisters. Tywin knows he can solve the problem once all these wars are over, but he needs to keep the crown afloat until that happens. So he puts a Tyrell Queen on the throne before letting them know the situation, and now it's their problem, too. Cersei knows she can solve the problem because she's Cersei, words like "hard" vs. "easy" and "economics" don't exist, it's all just a matter of how determined she is. So she goes for the one-shot short-term solution of sacking Highgarden and stealing the Tyrell gold. And then immediately borrows more money, which she won't be able to get back by stealing from the Tyrells again, but that's a problem for the future.

[Angel Eyes]

Well, they'd have to plan three seasons down the line to plan for the taking of Highgarden. 

Anyway, all of the talk about the Lannisters not having gold makes me think of the exchange between Tyrion and Mord.

[Mord pats down Tyrion] "No gold!"

"I don't have it here!"

"No gold! Fuck off!"

[jcmontea]

They specifically met with George in 2013 to talk about the end game so they can start planning for it. 

That is why you had:

- the scene in season 4 with Bran’s visions

- introducing the NK in season 4

- introducing the shireen being burned plot in season 4

- focusing on how Hodor’s mind was violated and how he felt in reaction 

Additionally, in season 3 they were already planning for Mel and arya to met again which is season 8 and the margery cersei conflict to come. 

Based on looking at the season and seeing a bunch of plots being set up for following seasons, I am not sure we can say it wasn’t to set up the Highgarden plot. 

 

[falcotron]

On 10/8/2017 at 2:01 PM, jcmontea said:

They specifically met with George in 2013 to talk about the end game so they can start planning for it. 

I think they definitely know how they want S8 to start. But beyond that, I think they have only a very rough outline—the list of major plot beats for the main characters that GRRM gave them* and a vague idea of where they want the next season to start off, when they begin writing each season.**

In S4, of course, they were still hoping GRRM would finish TWoW before they finished S5, or at least have it finished enough that he could give them a plot outline to work from, so they may not have been in this mode yet. But he clearly didn't give them a plot outline of TWoW when they were working on S5; whatever he gave them couldn't have been more than just more major plot beats for the early part of the remainder than for the later part.

So, if the sacking of Highgarden was one of the major plot beats that GRRM gave them, they may well have been setting up for it. But, if not, they probably weren't; it was probably something they came up with in S7 to get the situation from where they left off S6 to where they needed to be for S8. And it really doesn't seem like a major plot beat for any of the main characters—although I could be wrong there (e.g., if they consider Olenna a main character, they'd want GRRM to tell them what's going to happen to her).

Anyway, I still think the most likely reasons are (a) to make it more obvious that the Lannisters have to win everything or they lose, and (b) to distinguish between the Lannister characters by showing how they each deal with the problem.

---

* Which of course they have to adapt to fit their other changes—e.g., divvying up Aegon's plot beats between Cersei, Dany, and Jon—and I'm not sure how much work they put into figuring out those changes in advance.

** That's basically the same way GRRM works, except that of course he can spend 5 years trying to push the characters the right way and then changing things if they don't go where he wanted, while they have to get the writing done in a few months. It's also the way most modern TV is written, even shows that are supposed to have an overarching storyline, ever since X-Files and Buffy.