Warging laws

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I agree the bond strengthens with repeated exposure to the point where conscious control is necessary.  Is it the direwolf that initiates the wolf dreams in the beginning?

It was the author mostly. But in all in book thinking, the direwolves are magical beasts. So I guess, yes, they are responsible for awakening the bond between wolf and stark kid. GRRM has said that if Lady had lived, Sansa would have awakened her inner warg. Also, Bran is particularly powerful, as he is a greenseer. Varamyr was not  

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Faera said:

Another thought, if Jojen was frightened Bran would lose himself in Summer, would it not be possible for him to do the same with Hodor if he stayed there for too long? Could he and or Hodor drive each other mad because they have two consciousness inside the same brain. Would Bran simply become the dominant personality owing to Hodor's tendency to shrink away inside himself to a place where Bran can't reach him?

Yes, I agree if Bran gives into temptation.  I think this is exactly what has happened with Euron and The Crow's Eye.  That partnership changes in the Forsaken Chapter:

Spoiler

The Crow's Eye becomes the Blood Eye.  Look at Euron's personal sigil.  It represents Odin the thunder god with two crows and one red eye.

 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It was the author mostly. But in all in book thinking, the direwolves are magical beasts. So I guess, yes, they are responsible for awakening the bond between wolf and stark kid. GRRM has said that if Lady had lived, Sansa would have awakened her inner warg. Also, Bran is particularly powerful, as he is a greenseer. Varamyr was not  

Do you think Euron is an abomination?  Is the Crow's Eye/Blood Eye a greenseer who is gradually taking over Euron's mind since boyhood when he fell or jumped off the cliff?

[Faera]

1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Not to get to far off subject but we have another example of a heart tree changing expressions and it's the Winterfell heart tree. At the beginning of the series bring described as melancholy, scary to bran, we have Theon thinking it is judging ominously. 

But in the chapter Jeyne Poole AKA ARYA STARK marries Ramsay SNOW Bolton the heart tree is described as having opened its mouth "resembling a laughing face" or something.

Bran Would NOT be laughing then.

Bran absolutely could never beat three anointed knights in turn that had already made it through the first day of the tourney.

While I agree the tree shouldn't have been mocking (to prove the point shoulda been angrier) it DOES make since narratively bc it made Aerys so paranoid and wonder "who was after him" to the point he sent Rhaegar. (Jamie was the likely suspect in Aerys' mind as he denied participation to Jamie in the tourney and sent him to KL just to be a dick)

Maybe he wouldn't be laughing in a "haha" way but he could do in a mocking way. The marriage itself is a rather horrible joke as "Arya Stark" is not the true Arya, and so it seems fitting that - aside from Theon - the only one there who knows the truth is the Heart Tree, who may or may not have Bran's face. After all, Bran would know that wasn't his sister.

1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Bran absolutely could never beat three anointed knights in turn that had already made it through the first day of the tourney.

 

It's not that I think it could have been was Bran on his own - though, it's no more ridiculous than assuming Lyanna or Benjen

Stark did it - but Bran and Howland together. Though I suppose it does open the can of worms of "Can Bran warg/skinchange something or someone in the past?"

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm suggesting that Hodor was afraid because he could sense the fury in Shaggy Dog and may have felt himself at risk either of attack or becoming paired with Shaggy Dog.    

 

Oh, I get it! Sorry, I completely misunderstood. I think if that's the case, he might be more frightened of attack than anything else though I also wonder if this might be just a sixth-sense Hodor has, like the essence of the 3EC is still down there. Like Qyburn said about the woman leaving their scent behind, they might leave a part of their soul. 

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you think Euron is an abomination?  Is the Crow's Eye/Blood Eye a greenseer who is gradually taking over Euron's mind since boyhood when he fell or jumped off the cliff?

Euron "Crow's Eye" almost feels like "Dark Bran" and a potential servant of the 3EC gone very, very wrong. This whole idea of being able to "fly" and all the false gods impaled on the Iron Throne... all except the Weirwood. Based on what Jojen told us about when the Crow first came to him, it was when he almost died from a fever. It opened his third eye and gave him the greendreams.

If Euron had a near death experience, perhaps his own third eye was opened?

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Faera said:

Euron "Crow's Eye" almost feels like "Dark Bran" and a potential servant of the 3EC gone very, very wrong. This whole idea of being able to "fly" and all the false gods impaled on the Iron Throne... all except the Weirwood. Based on what Jojen told us about when the Crow first came to him, it was when he almost died from a fever. It opened his third eye and gave him the greendreams.

If Euron had a near death experience, perhaps his own third eye was opened?

Exactly.  Although he may not be greenseer material in the same sense at the Starks; he is susceptible to influence by a greenseer or something of equivalent power.  I don't think he was tested by the same three-eyed crow as Bran.

[Faera]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Exactly.  Although he may not be greenseer material in the same sense at the Starks; he is susceptible to influence by a greenseer or something of equivalent power.  I don't think he was tested by the same three-eyed crow as Bran.

Well, a part of me has always wondered whether the 3EC is necessarily always Bloodraven himself so it could be that whatever is reaching out to Euron doesn't want him to become a "tree-wizard" but an agent of chaos.

Plus, he drinks a lot of shade-of-the-evening to better have visions, similar to how BR tries to give Bran visions with the weirwood paste. So, both characters need a hallucinogenic to have the visions.

[Dorian Martell's son]

54 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you think Euron is an abomination?  Is the Crow's Eye/Blood Eye a greenseer who is gradually taking over Euron's mind since boyhood when he fell or jumped off the cliff?

an abomination? No. Evil to his core, who delights and relishes in the suffering of others, and who sees the suffering of others as an effective tool to forward any scheme machination he desires. He sexually abused his youngest brother. He raped the wife of his other younger brother, forcing Vic to kill her or lose honor. He takes a salt wife, impregnates her and then sacrifices her to his god. He is beyond redemption. 
As for the greenseer, no. He discovered magic by fluke when he attacked the warlock's ship and took their shade.  His discovery of magic amplified the evil already there.  

[LynnS]

57 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

an abomination? No. Evil to his core, who delights and relishes in the suffering of others, and who sees the suffering of others as an effective tool to forward any scheme machination he desires. He sexually abused his youngest brother. He raped the wife of his other younger brother, forcing Vic to kill her or lose honor. He takes a salt wife, impregnates her and then sacrifices her to his god. He is beyond redemption. 
As for the greenseer, no. He discovered magic by fluke when he attacked the warlock's ship and took their shade.  His discovery of magic amplified the evil already there.  

Well there is nothing wrong with occam's razor abd hese are the bare facts.  I'd go with it, except there is no accounting for magic.  I think Euron is more than he seems.

[Faera]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well there is nothing wrong with occam's razor abd hese are the bare facts.  I'd go with it, except there is no accounting for magic.  I think Euron is more than he seems.

I agree there might be more to Euron's maledictions than him being high off shade of the evening all the time, though I definitely don't think he's been skinchange by anyone or anything. To me, that would cheapen the "evilness" of his character. It is far scarier if he is a normal man who believes he has the power to become a god than some external force taking control of him.

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well there is nothing wrong with occam's razor abd hese are the bare facts.  I'd go with it, except there is no accounting for magic.  I think Euron is more than he seems.

 

15 minutes ago, Faera said:

I agree there might be more to Euron's maledictions than him being high off shade of the evening all the time, though I definitely don't think he's been skinchange by anyone or anything. To me, that would cheapen the "evilness" of his character. It is far scarier if he is a normal man who believes he has the power to become a god than some external force taking control of him.

Euron was born the evil man he is. His discovery of warlock magic just sent him in the  direction he is now in, which is conquering westeros 

[Faera]

17 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

 

Euron was born the evil man he is. His discovery of warlock magic just sent him in the  direction he is now in, which is conquering westeros 

I agree he was born bad - there is no shortage of characters "born bad". Joffrey and Ramsay are two examples of that, though, I would say Euron is arguably the absolute more evil and irredeemable man we have met so far. That said, I still think it would be interesting if he is receiving messages from the same source everyone else is getting their visions and it is giving him a God Complex.

As so said, though, I don't think anyone is trying I seize control of his body. The Crow's Eye is Euron and Euron is the Crow's Eye.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

I agree he was born bad - there is no shortage of characters "born bad". Joffrey and Ramsay are two examples of that, though, I would say Euron is arguably the absolute more evil and irredeemable man we have met so far. That said, I still think it would be interesting if he is receiving messages from the same source everyone else is getting their visions and it is giving him a God Complex.

My issue with the potential greenseer gone bad idea is that he has no connection to the old gods. Bloodraven and Bran have very strong old gods connections. Both are from houses that keep the old faith. discovering magic later and exploiting it (to me) fits a lot more with his personality. If he was connected with someone like bloodraven, he would have magical ability and not need to discover the shade of the evening. 

3 hours ago, Faera said:

As so said, though, I don't think anyone is trying I seize control of his body. The Crow's Eye is Euron and Euron is the Crow's Eye.

exactly. He is a really really bad dude 

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

My issue with the potential greenseer gone bad idea is that he has no connection to the old gods. Bloodraven and Bran have very strong old gods connections. Both are from houses that keep the old faith. discovering magic later and exploiting it (to me) fits a lot more with his personality. If he was connected with someone like bloodraven, he would have magical ability and not need to discover the shade of the evening. 

exactly. He is a really really bad dude 

 

I have to go with the Patchface interpretation that 'under the sea' refers to greenseers underground beneath the sea of trees. The drowned god  would be a greenseer living under the sea; one who had died and was reborn.  The whole drowned god religion is a bastardization of the old gods/weirwood/greenseers originating with the story of the Grey King.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have to go with the Patchface interpretation that 'under the sea' refers to greenseers underground beneath the sea of trees. The drowned god  would be a greenseer living under the sea; one who had died and was reborn.  The whole drowned god religion is a bastardization of the old gods/weirwood/greenseers originating with the story of the Grey King.  

Interesting, I have never thought of it that way. I guess you lose your first men powers when you turn away from the old gods 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Interesting, I have never thought of it that way. I guess you lose your first men powers when you turn away from the old gods 

I wonder why Moqorro says that the drowned god is a thrall to the Other.

[Dorian Martell's son]

47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I wonder why Moqorro says that the drowned god is a thrall to the Other.

Where does he say that? I seem to remember it and I seem to remember thinking Euron was the thrall to the great other. It could also be that any servant of the red god would see any other god as the servant of the great other 

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Where does he say that? I seem to remember it and I seem to remember thinking Euron was the thrall to the great other. It could also be that any servant of the red god would see any other god as the servant of the great other 

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

He should not have said that. Victarion took him around the throat with his burned hand and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming him back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishman's face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh. The man kicked and writhed for a while, trying fruitlessly to pry loose the captain's grip. "No man calls Victarion Greyjoy a fool and lives to boast of it." When he opened his hand, the man's limp body flopped to the deck. Longwater Pyke and Tom Tidewood chucked it over the rail, another offering to the Drowned God.

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken."

[Faera]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I have to go with the Patchface interpretation that 'under the sea' refers to greenseers underground beneath the sea of trees. The drowned god  would be a greenseer living under the sea; one who had died and was reborn.  The whole drowned god religion is a bastardization of the old gods/weirwood/greenseers originating with the story of the Grey King.  

"Under the sea" or "under the see"? It feels like there is a double meaning in Patchface's "under the sea" statements. The circumstances of his survival make him seem like some sort of wight.

I also will agree that the saying "what is dead may never die" would fit an off-shoot of the religion of the old gods of the trees. A huge part of their faith is that your spirit goes into the trees on death to become part of the god hood yourself. It is their afterlife.

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Faera said:

"Under the sea" or "under the see"? It feels like there is a double meaning in Patchface's "under the sea" statements. The circumstances of his survival make him seem like some sort of wight.

I also will agree that the saying "what is dead may never die" would fit an off-shoot of the religion of the old gods of the trees. A huge part of their faith is that your spirit goes into the trees on death to become part of the god hood yourself. It is their afterlife.

Same thing, only not under water but under a sea of trees, a sea of grass - the green sea/see/seer.
 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Dance with Dragons - Victarion I

He should not have said that. Victarion took him around the throat with his burned hand and lifted him bodily into the air. Slamming him back against the mast, he squeezed till the Yunkishman's face turned as black as the fingers digging into his flesh. The man kicked and writhed for a while, trying fruitlessly to pry loose the captain's grip. "No man calls Victarion Greyjoy a fool and lives to boast of it." When he opened his hand, the man's limp body flopped to the deck. Longwater Pyke and Tom Tidewood chucked it over the rail, another offering to the Drowned God.

"Your Drowned God is a demon," the black priest Moqorro said afterward. "He is no more than a thrall of the Other, the dark god whose name must not be spoken."

Thank you