Warging laws

[Faera]

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that Hodor has been prepared for Bran in advance.  I wonder if Hodor has been 'lighting struck' and this is why Hodor feels such terror during the thunderstorm at Queenscrown.  It's curious that Hodor hums to himself all the time.  I'm reminded of the sound of electricity running through a live wire.  Hodor's mind alteration makes it easier for Bran to send his consciousness into Hodor and I think there is some purpose here beyond Bran learning how to skinchange a human. 

1

Interesting. If the books follow through with the time-travelling Bran theory...

Spoiler

Obviously, that-which-must-not be-named offered a very interesting clue as to what and how the everlasting bond through time and space between Bran and Hodor came to be...

 

Bloodraven and Bran could both have been visiting Hodor/Walder through the Weirdwood enough to create that link between them both. I do still think that Bran might be able to skin-change other humans with greater ease than Varamyr but I really like this idea of Hodor being "special" or different. 

As for that song... gosh, I want to know what that's about too!

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

Interesting. If the books follow through with the time-travelling Bran theory...

  Reveal hidden contents

Obviously, that-which-must-not be-named offered a very interesting clue as to what and how the everlasting bond through time and space between Bran and Hodor came to be...

 

Bloodraven and Bran could both have been visiting Hodor/Walder through the Weirdwood enough to create that link between them both. I do still think that Bran might be able to skin-change other humans with greater ease than Varamyr but I really like this idea of Hodor being "special" or different. 

As for that song... gosh, I want to know what that's about too!

It would be interesting to learn if Bran gave Howland Reed a boost at the Tourney of Harrenhall.  One of Howland's magic skills is that he can talk to trees.  I wonder if that's anything like Jon talking to Tree-Bran.  Bran would certainly fit the motif of the laughing tree.

[Faera]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It would be interesting to learn if Bran gave Howland Reed a boost at the Tourney of Harrenhall.  One of Howland's magic skills is that he can talk to trees.  I wonder if that's anything like Jon talking to Tree-Bran.  Bran would certainly fit the motif of the laughing tree.

 

Honestly, I would love that!

One thing that has always left doubt in my mind that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree is that sigil not seeming to fit. While narratively speaking, it makes sense that the reason Rhaegar gave her the crown of blue roses was a "prize" for her skill in the tourney, that sigil makes me feel like it might not have been her. People are reluctant for it to have simply been Howland due to that being what Bran presumed.

Buuut if it was Bran skin-changing Howland or spiritually guiding him through the matches, then one could argue it wasn't just Howland but him and Bran, or even just Bran living out his dream of being a knight for one day.

There might be something in the changing faces of the Weirwood to reflect the last person who used it, like how Theon thinks he recognises Bran's face in the Weirdwood tree and seems to hear it whispering to him. Then, we have the earlier Jon-Bran Weirwood hook up in ACoK. As you said, Howland, while being more of a wood-dancer like his daughter than a greendreamer like his son, could talk to (and perhaps hear) the language of the trees among his magical skills. Given that Bran seems to have managed to whisper to his father through the trees, he might have a better shot at getting through to Howland, the tree-whisperer.

So, I absolutely agree - of all characters so far, Bran fits that sigil best.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

There is a question of the warg bond and whether or not it's the direwolf that initiates it.  Indeed Bran has to open his third eye and consciously control his wolf dreams.  The direwolves act as protectors and I wonder if Hodor and Bran are developing the same kind of bond.  I'd start to wonder about Old Nan's great grandson and his 3rd eye potential.   I wonder if it was Hodor who called on Bran in their hour of need. 

At 1st glance this idea borders apologist for Bran's invasions.   Given some time to mull it over it's not unthinkable at all.    If Hodor is in fact a descendant of Dunc's there could easily be some real honor and valar in Hodor that isn't relegated to existing as a beast of burden.   @LynnS, this is a really interesting concept.   I almost want to argue about Hodor having no totem when he may be a totem himself.   Bran's ideal, not this baby greenseer's but little Bran, who wanted to be a knight.   Certainly Hodor has the potential to understand danger.   Is he mentally capable of reacting as a knight?    Not that we've yet seen, but we spend so much time debating Bran's invasions it's easy to overlook those last statements in text about Hodor retreating within himself to allow Bran to take over if not welcome him.     Perhaps the possessions are part of Hodor's training too.    Wow.    Just wow.    Thanks for busting out with this idea.   It allows us to consider old much pondered material in a whole new light.   

[LynnS]

37 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

At 1st glance this idea borders apologist for Bran's invasions.   Given some time to mull it over it's not unthinkable at all.    If Hodor is in fact a descendant of Dunc's there could easily be some real honor and valar in Hodor that isn't relegated to existing as a beast of burden.   @LynnS, this is a really interesting concept.   I almost want to argue about Hodor having no totem when he may be a totem himself.   Bran's ideal, not this baby greenseer's but little Bran, who wanted to be a knight.   Certainly Hodor has the potential to understand danger.   Is he mentally capable of reacting as a knight?    Not that we've yet seen, but we spend so much time debating Bran's invasions it's easy to overlook those last statements in text about Hodor retreating within himself to allow Bran to take over if not welcome him.     Perhaps the possessions are part of Hodor's training too.    Wow.    Just wow.    Thanks for busting out with this idea.   It allows us to consider old much pondered material in a whole new light.   

Hah!  I love it!  Hodor and Bran are highly sympathetic to each other in many ways.  How is it that Bran knows that Hodor's favorite stories are about knights as well.  How does Hodor know when Bran is having a nightmare and stands by his bedside with a candle.

[Curled Finger]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hah!  I love it!  Hodor and Bran are highly sympathetic to each other in many ways.  How is it that Bran knows that Hodor's favorite stories are about knights as well.  How does Hodor know when Bran is having a nightmare and stands by his bedside with a candle.

You're just inciting me now!   Hodor stands beside his bedside with a candle...a light in the darkness?   A true Nights Watch?   I took Bran's statements about Hodor as little throw away projections of his own likes and dislikes, but nooooooo there you go giving yet another small way these 2 are connected more deeply than we consider.   I am more convinced they are 2 halves of the whole.  Wonder what Old Nan would make of all this?  Ned?   

It's rather like all these hidden identities, Jon, Aegon, Arya, Lem, Sansa, Lady Stone Heart---even Cersei at play.  This is a really fresh way to look at the relationship between Hodor and Bran.   

[LynnS]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You're just inciting me now!   Hodor stands beside his bedside with a candle...a light in the darkness?   A true Nights Watch?   I took Bran's statements about Hodor as little throw away projections of his own likes and dislikes, but nooooooo there you go giving yet another small way these 2 are connected more deeply than we consider.   I am more convinced they are 2 halves of the whole.  Wonder what Old Nan would make of all this?  Ned?   

It's rather like all these hidden identities, Jon, Aegon, Arya, Lem, Sansa, Lady Stone Heart---even Cersei at play.  This is a really fresh way to look at the relationship between Hodor and Bran.   

That's great!  I'll be very interested to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.

[Faera]

13 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's great!  I'll be very interested to hear more of your thoughts on the subject.
 

 

44 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I am more convinced they are 2 halves of the whole.  Wonder what Old Nan would make of all this?  Ned?   

It's a weirdly nice way of looking at an act that is presented as such a violation that Bran-Hodor are spiritually connected.

I don't know why but my mind immediately went to the bit in ACoK when Bran wakes up with that sense of foreboding following a Summer-dream before Theon and the Ironmen come busting into his room.

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Bran pulled himself from the bed, moving bar to bar until he reached the windows. His fingers fumbled a little as he swung back the shutters. The yard was empty, and all the windows he could see were black. Winterfell slept. "Hodor!" he shouted down, as loud as he could. Hodor would be asleep above the stables, but maybe if he yelled loud enough he'd hear, or somebody would. "Hodor, come fast! Osha! Meera, Jojen, anyone!" Bran cupped his hands around his mouth. "HOOOOODOOOOOR!"

 

His mind immediately goes to Hodor, first. He is his legs, after all. He is like an extension of himself.

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, Faera said:

It's a weirdly nice way of looking at an act that is presented as such a violation that Bran-Hodor are spiritually connected.

I don't know why but my mind immediately went to the bit in ACoK when Bran wakes up with that sense of foreboding following a Summer-dream before Theon and the Ironmen come busting into his room.

His mind immediately goes to Hodor, first. He is his legs, after all. He is like an extension of himself.

Exactly.    2 halves of the whole.   Bran has become dependent upon Hodor.   What is it Bran has become for Hodor?  Hodor has legs and arms and strength and mobility, but he is incapable of realizing anything beyond his humble duties.   Has Bran become his mind?  Bran is certainly more than Hodor's master or friend.    This connection is here...if we could only figure it all out...

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Exactly.    2 halves of the whole.   Bran has become dependent upon Hodor.   What is it Bran has become for Hodor?  Hodor has legs and arms and strength and mobility, but he is incapable of realizing anything beyond his humble duties.   Has Bran become his mind?  Bran is certainly more than Hodor's master or friend.    This connection is here...if we could only figure it all out...

They are both broken boys or broken swords.  The sword and the hilt.

Bran climbed too high and was struck down by lighting warns Old Nan and Hodor was perhaps also lightning struck.

 

[Faera]

On 08/10/2017 at 6:20 PM, LynnS said:

They are both broken boys or broken swords.  The sword and the hilt.

Bran climbed too high and was struck down by lighting warns Old Nan and Hodor was perhaps also lightning struck.

 

I don't necessarily think that it has anything to do with lightning but I feel their connection is very significant. In a way, because Bran's companions are numbered, a huge part of his story seems to be his emotional and physical connection to all four of them - Hodor, Meera, Jojen and Summer - and there are hints peppered throughout all the chapters as to how they all serve different roles.

For Hodor, there is a genuine sense that as time goes on and on, they are slowly becoming one in the same body when Bran is in there. I still find it uncomfortable with the fact that Hodor does still feel frightened and distraught when Bran does it, but it makes me wonder whether it would ever be possible for a human to willingly allow a skinchanger into their body and allow them both to work together, feel each other or even converse inside "their" head in order to complete a goal.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 10/7/2017 at 4:21 PM, LynnS said:

Was he given an assist? 

No, he was desperate and acted without thinking much about it 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

I don't necessarily think that it has anything to do with lightning but I feel their connection is very significant. In a way, because Bran's companions are numbered, a huge part of his story seems to be his emotional and physical connection to all four of them - Hodor, Meera, Jojen and Summer - and there are hints peppered throughout all the chapters as to how they all serve different roles.

For Hodor, there is a genuine sense that as time goes on and on, they are slowly becoming one in the same body when Bran is in there. I still find it uncomfortable with the fact that Hodor does still feel frightened and distraught when Bran does it, but it makes me wonder whether it would ever be possible for a human to willingly allow a skinchanger into their body and allow them both to work together, feel each other or even converse inside "their" head in order to complete a goal.

Lightning is used figuratively in Bran's story; but I'm not so sure about Hodor.  Old Nan's story could have been as much about Hodor climbing too high as it is about Bran falling from the lighting struck tower. Hodor's condition for one thing and his fear of thunderstorms.  Martin has said that he is only afraid at certain times and this is illustrated at Queenscrown. 

But in the context of the discussion about whether or not Bran is doing evil; I think not.  As I've mentioned upthread, it seems possible to me that Hodor and Bran are developing the same kind of bond as the starks and their direwolves.  The business of Bran suddenly finding himself within Hodor in Beserker mode is very curious especially if Hodor is able to initiate the bond.

That could be dangerous for Hodor since his repeated conditioning will make it easier for some other warg to take him from Bran.  I think this is also why Hodor is afraid to go into the crypts after Rickon and Bran dream of Ned.  What if Shaggy had Dog initiated a bond with Hodor.

I think the Bran/Hodor warg bond is a bit of a set-up for what is occurring with Euron.   Because it does seem like he is playing the part of Hodor to the Storm God or whatever entity Aeron Damphair thinks is operating at the Kingsmoot.  This would be a case of an abomination and good reason why skinchangers are warned against it.    

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

On October 8, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Faera said:

Honestly, I would love that!

One thing that has always left doubt in my mind that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree is that sigil not seeming to fit. While narratively speaking, it makes sense that the reason Rhaegar gave her the crown of blue roses was a "prize" for her skill in the tourney, that sigil makes me feel like it might not have been her. People are reluctant for it to have simply been Howland due to that being what Bran presumed.

Buuut if it was Bran skin-changing Howland or spiritually guiding him through the matches, then one could argue it wasn't just Howland but him and Bran, or even just Bran living out his dream of being a knight for one day.

There might be something in the changing faces of the Weirwood to reflect the last person who used it, like how Theon thinks he recognises Bran's face in the Weirdwood tree and seems to hear it whispering to him. Then, we have the earlier Jon-Bran Weirwood hook up in ACoK. As you said, Howland, while being more of a wood-dancer like his daughter than a greendreamer like his son, could talk to (and perhaps hear) the language of the trees among his magical skills. Given that Bran seems to have managed to whisper to his father through the trees, he might have a better shot at getting through to Howland, the tree-whisperer.

So, I absolutely agree - of all characters so far, Bran fits that sigil best.

Not to get to far off subject but we have another example of a heart tree changing expressions and it's the Winterfell heart tree. At the beginning of the series bring described as melancholy, scary to bran, we have Theon thinking it is judging ominously. 

But in the chapter Jeyne Poole AKA ARYA STARK marries Ramsay SNOW Bolton the heart tree is described as having opened its mouth "resembling a laughing face" or something.

Bran Would NOT be laughing then.

Bran absolutely could never beat three anointed knights in turn that had already made it through the first day of the tourney.

While I agree the tree shouldn't have been mocking (to prove the point shoulda been angrier) it DOES make since narratively bc it made Aerys so paranoid and wonder "who was after him" to the point he sent Rhaegar. (Jamie was the likely suspect in Aerys' mind as he denied participation to Jamie in the tourney and sent him to KL just to be a dick)

[LynnS]

50 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

No, he was desperate and acted without thinking much about it 

Do you think that there is a bond between Bran and Summer; that they are always connected in some way whether Bran is consciously warging Summer or not?  Do you think Summer can sense if Bran is in danger and come to his rescue without first being called by Bran?  Are they keyed emotionally to each other?

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

One thing that has always left doubt in my mind that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree is that sigil not seeming to fit. While narratively speaking, it makes sense that the reason Rhaegar gave her the crown of blue roses was a "prize" for her skill in the tourney, that sigil makes me feel like it might not have been her. People are reluctant for it to have simply been Howland due to that being what Bran presumed.

The device on the shield of the KoLT is very interesting.  It's a red face.  That's not something you see on any weirwood tree apart from eyes and the mouth. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

Bran nodded sagely. Mystery knights would oft appear at tourneys, with helms concealing their faces, and shields that were either blank or bore some strange device. Sometimes they were famous champions in disguise. The Dragonknight once won a tourney as the Knight of Tears, so he could name his sister the queen of love and beauty in place of the king's mistress. And Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery knight's armor, the first time when he was only ten. "It was the little crannogman, I bet."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face." 

A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

"I take this man," the bride said in a whisper.

All around them lights glimmered through the mists, a hundred candles pale as shrouded stars. Theon stepped back, and Ramsay and his bride joined hands and knelt before the heart tree, bowing their heads in token of submission. The weirwood's carved red eyes stared down at them, its great red mouth open as if to laugh. In the branches overhead a raven quorked. 

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

In the godswood the snow was still dissolving as it touched the earth. Steam rose off the hot pools, fragrant with the smell of moss and mud and decay. A warm fog hung in the air, turning the trees into sentinels, tall soldiers shrouded in cloaks of gloom. During daylight hours, the steamy wood was often full of northmen come to pray to the old gods, but at this hour Theon Greyjoy found he had it all to himself.

And in the heart of the wood the weirwood waited with its knowing red eyes. Theon stopped by the edge of the pool and bowed his head before its carved red face. Even here he could hear the drumming, boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM boom DOOM. Like distant thunder, the sound seemed to come from everywhere at once.

 

The tree at Winterfell is the only tree that is ever described as laughing or having a red face.  There is some mind alteration or magic involved here since this is not how the tree normally looks to anyone.

I think it might be entirely possible that Howland was the KoLT and that he was given an assist by Tree-Bran.

[Dorian Martell's son]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you think that there is a bond between Bran and Summer; that they are always connected in some way whether Bran is consciously warging Summer or not?  Do you think Summer can sense if Bran is in danger and come to his rescue without first being called by Bran?  Are they keyed emotionally to each other?

Yes, but that had to develop slowly over the course of years. Dreaming first and eventually developing into full on skinchanging 

[Faera]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That could be dangerous for Hodor since his repeated conditioning will make it easier for some other warg to take him from Bran.  I think this is also why Hodor is afraid to go into the crypts after Rickon and Bran dream of Ned.  What if Shaggy had Dog initiated a bond with Hodor.

 

How do you mean Shaggydog initiated a bond with Hodor? Where do you get that?

In any case, I would think it would take a more powerful skinchanger than Bran to takeover Hodor... so, Bloodraven, maybe. But I don't really understand why he would do that. Unless he's the one who ultimately messes up Hodor's mind, not Bran. However, I hope that isn't the case because I feel - whether well-intentioned or not - Bran thinking about Hodor's autonomy from him for a superficial reason such as "I want to go cave exploring with Meera and Jojen!" or "I want to hug Meera but she's too far away", should have a dire consequence.

If Hodor does down, it needs to be because Bran makes a mistake and he needs to learn from it.

Another thought, if Jojen was frightened Bran would lose himself in Summer, would it not be possible for him to do the same with Hodor if he stayed there for too long? Could he and or Hodor drive each other mad because they have two consciousness inside the same brain. Would Bran simply become the dominant personality owing to Hodor's tendency to shrink away inside himself to a place where Bran can't reach him?

Think about what it is like to skinchange Hodor now:

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The big stableboy no longer fought him as he had the first time, back in the lake tower during the storm. Like a dog who has had all the fight whipped out of him, Hodor would curl up and hide whenever Bran reached out for him. His hiding place was somewhere deep within him, a pit where not even Bran could touch him. No one wants to hurt you, Hodor, he said silently, to the child-man whose flesh he'd taken. I just want to be strong again for a while. I'll give it back, the way I always do.

 

It is very different than Summer, chiefly because Hodor is a human and - though he cannot talk - still have stuff going on in his head that he seems to want to keep away from Bran when they are inhabiting the same body. Summer is a wolf and Bran initially got very confused as to what he wanted and what Summer wanted. He's getting better now but you definitely get the feeling that he is starting to use Hodor a great deal more because, in the cave, it is Hodor's body that is the most useful.

Then, we have the fact that Bran is essentially walking around with a Hodor-suit on, tricking Meera and Jojen.
 

Quote

 

No one ever knew when he was wearing Hodor's skin. Bran only had to smile, do as he was told, and mutter "Hodor" from time to time, and he could follow Meera and Jojen, grinning happily, without anyone suspecting it was really him. He often tagged along, whether he was wanted or not. 

 

 

He is deceiving them and he even seems a little pleased with himself, too. He has no intention of them ever knowing with his whole "Or was it Bran wandering? No one must ever know." bit. There is no denying that the use of Hodor has the practical uses as well, else he never would have found the chamber with all the other CotF hooked into the Weirwood Net. I feel that will play a part:

Quote

 

Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

 

 

That bit played into what I was wondering earlier - the idea that two consciousnesses can share the same body and senses and indicate things to each other. Here, Bran seems to not be too worried about seeing these singers and simply greets them with a little "Hodor"; the real Hodor, on the other hand, "stirs".It's as if something about what they are seeing has made him so uneasy that even Bran, who he is actively "hiding" from, can feel it. It reminds me again of the crypts, when Hodor doesn't want to go down there after Bran had his 3EC dream - it is the only time he's too frightened to go down there.

It is also telling to me that Hodor doesn't seem frightened of Bloodraven or the cave itself. It is the sight of the CotF that makes him stir. It feels important. If Bran would stop focusing on what he wants for himself and paid attention to Hodor's feelings, it might tell him something. Hodor does seem to have a sixth sense about this stuff.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, but that had to develop slowly over the course of years. Dreaming first and eventually developing into full on skinchanging 

I agree the bond strengthens with repeated exposure to the point where conscious control is necessary.  Is it the direwolf that initiates the wolf dreams in the beginning?

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Faera said:

How do you mean Shaggydog initiated a bond with Hodor? Where do you get that?

That's not what I said.  Hodor was afraid to go into the crypts.  Do you recall that Shaggy Dog was out of control and attacked Luwin.  It's been suggested that direwolves initiate the warg bond with the children they are paired with and Rickon is not the dominant partner but rather Shaggy Dog is in control and nobody is paying attention to what is going on with Rickon.  I'm suggesting that Hodor was afraid because he could sense the fury in Shaggy Dog and may have felt himself at risk either of attack or becoming paired with Shaggy Dog.