Damsel in Distress

In support of N + A = J

141 posts in this topic

The Order of the Greenhand is one of my favorite programs on ASOIAF.  They released an episode yesterday that I consider as one of their best.  They present the theory that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I have always agreed that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar but I believed Lyanna was where Jon came out of.  The father being Brandon or Mance.  After watching this video, I am no longer convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but rather Ashara and Ned.

 

This theory also presents an interesting parallel to the story of Gillie, Mance Rayder Junior, Craster Junior, Jon Snow, and young Griffin.  The story of Jon and Ned are similar in some ways.  Ned sends a royal baby away to safety with the mother of his own child in order to protect that child.  Jon sends away the baby boy of the king-beyond-the-wall to protect that child.  You could say that both the child of Rhaegar and Mance have king's blood.  Griffin is the equivalent of Mance Rayder junior.  Craster junior is the current day equal of baby Jon.  The irony is that the boys sent away to safety may play lesser roles in the story than the "lesser" boys who stayed behind.  In Jon's case, he went with Ned to the north.  I can see Ashara going along with this because she is loyal to the Targaryens.  It also saved her honor because Ned was never going to marry her anyway.  She had to disappear for many reasons.  Gillie is the current day equivalent of Ashara in the sense that they agreed to care for the baby of another woman in order to save that life.  Both women made sacrifices.

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The books have overwhelming evidence of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I wont repeat all of it right now, nor will I talk about the show since this is the book section. But even without the show, I'm not convinced. There isn't enough evidence. Ashara's suicide would be strange if her son were alive and well.

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I'm not opposed to something other than R+L=J & the video does what I believe to be a good job with timelines but uses too much speculation for me to by into it too much. 

There are parts of the video I agree with but the main things I have issues with is:

-It uses the fact that Ned tells LF that Brandon spoke about him "often with some heat" as evidence that sometime passed between LF challenging Brandon to a duel & Brandon coming to fight the duel. Could some time have passed? Yes, the issue is what they present as evidence for it could merely mean that Brandon had a strong disliking for LF before the duel OR that he talked about it often, with some heat in one or two conversations. This is essential to their time line & is a very weak brick to start building a theory on IMO.

- They assume Ashara was with Elia at Dragonstone because GRRM said Ashara was a lady companion of Elia's in the first few years of Rhaegar & Elia's marriage. Again one thing does not equate the other & this too is essential to their timeline. 

-They claim there are only 3 reasons Ashara would/could have left Elia as being 1. Courtship & Marriage 2. Complicated resignation 3. Being dismissed. I wholeheartedly disagree that these are the only reasons Ashara could have left Elia. They go further to claim it couldn't have been either of the latter 2 because there would have been gossip & juicy rumors. The fact is though 1. There could have been any number of reasons Ashara left Elia, including the 3 given. 2. A resignation need not be complicated. 3. We don't know there weren't gossip & juicy rumors. Again this is essential to their timeline. Now we have 3 very fragile bricks the entire theory is supposed to stand on. It's crumbling down. 

- The evidence then points to much speculation & guess work. They presume that because Dragonstone & the Vale were both close to Gulltown & that Elia was probably a nice girl that would have been happy for Ashara that there is "virtually no way they (Ned & Ashara) never saw each other again" after Harrenhal. This is obviously not evidence of any sort & only the authors guess. It went on to say Ned & Ashara "likely would have met at Gulltown to travel to the wedding (Brandon & Catelyn's) together" but upon hearing Lyanna was kidnapped & Brandon left Ned would have returned Ashara to the Vale to keep her safe. Again no evidence just guessing. 

- They use the fact that Ashara was not with Elia at the sack of KL as evidence that Ashara must've been with Ned going to B&C's wedding so that Ned could present Ashara to his father & get his blessing to marry her. 

Now I'm not saying these things couldn't have happened this way only that for a theory to have any ground to stand on or to be believed there has to be evidence presented that favors said theory. It can't just be I think maybe someone probably could've or would've done this or that so it's true.   

 

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2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The books have overwhelming evidence of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I wont repeat all of it right now, nor will I talk about the show since this is the book section. But even without the show, I'm not convinced. There isn't enough evidence. Ashara's suicide would be strange if her son were alive and well.

I disagree.  The books do not have good evidence for R+L=J.  I would not even call it evidence. 

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The books have overwhelming evidence of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I wont repeat all of it right now, nor will I talk about the show since this is the book section. But even without the show, I'm not convinced. There isn't enough evidence. Ashara's suicide would be strange if her son were alive and well.

Exactly. But there are lots of people who can't stand the idea of Jon being Rhaegar's son. Jon being Ned and Ashara's makes zero sense in the context of the story, and there are zero hints pointing to it. Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's, regardless of what the mummer's version did or didn't confirm. 

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

- They assume Ashara was with Elia at Dragonstone because GRRM said Ashara was a lady companion of Elia's in the first few years of Rhaegar & Elia's marriage. Again one thing does not equate the other & this too is essential to their timeline

Yes exactly.  This would work if Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents.  

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a . . . a good knight . . . chivalrous, brave . . . he spared my life, and the lives of many others . . . Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and . . . forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth . . . even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

"Viserys did." The Mad King. "The Usurper called him that, the Usurper and his dogs." The Mad King. "It was a lie."

"Why ask for truth," Ser Barristan said softly, "if you close your ears to it?" He hesitated, then continued. "I told you before that I used a false name so the Lannisters would not know that I'd joined you. That was less than half of it, Your Grace. The truth is, I wanted to watch you for a time before pledging you my sword. To make certain that you were not . . ." 

". . . my father's daughter?" If she was not her father's daughter, who was she?

 

 

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I disagree with the theory that Ashara is Jon's mother. She is not only the first person suggested to be his mother but there are the rumours about Ned having an affair with her or at least being in love with her. That it is brought up more than once makes it a massive red herring. If Ashara did have some nookie with a guy in a tent, it didn't produce Jon.

Someone once said that the reason why R+L=J is due to every other theory really painting Ned in a bad light. Marrying, impregnating a woman and then abandoning her while stealing your lawful son and raising him as a bastard, no. Don't get me wrong, I do expect some twist to come out of the whole connection between Ned and Starfall but I feel it is unlikely to be because Jon was Ashara's son, and definitely not that Ned married her before Cat! 

As to what the twist is... I'm not sure. Maybe TOotGH have got it the wrong way around and (f)Aegon is, in fact, Ashara's son who is being passed off as a Targ, or maybe Ashara's younger sister, Allyria, is really his daughter, or maybe Ashara never had a child at all. Maybe she had some hanky-panky in the tent with someone completely different who no one would have guessed in millions years and everyone just assumed it was Ned for some reason...

4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The books have overwhelming evidence of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I wont repeat all of it right now, nor will I talk about the show since this is the book section. But even without the show, I'm not convinced. There isn't enough evidence. Ashara's suicide would be strange if her son were alive and well.

I would actually say that half the appeal of R+L=J is how everything is inferred indirectly and not "obvious". It isn't "overwhelming" at all but completely subtle. That is why it makes the most "sense" in people's heads when they pick at these pieces and put it together because it fits with the narrative of Jon's mother's identity being a secret.

In comparison, Ned and Ashara did seem a little too on the nose. Cat thinks about it, Cersei suggests it, Edric tells Arya that his aunt and her dad were in love. While I suppose they might have been, I do wonder, again, if it is all one massive red herring.

 

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With regard to the ASOS quotes up thread, why can't Dany be her mother's daughter? If Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was, then maybe it's because he takes after his mother. Aerys is half the equation. He didn't make these children on his own. I get that Rhaella seems to be sort of forgotten, but if Rhaegar takes after her, and Dany takes after Rhaegar, then maybe she takes after her mother too?

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1 minute ago, Widow's Watch said:

With regard to the ASOS quotes up thread, why can't Dany be her mother's daughter? If Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was, then maybe it's because he takes after his mother. Aerys is half the equation. He didn't make these children on his own. I get that Rhaella seems to be sort of forgotten, but if Rhaegar takes after her, and Dany takes after Rhaegar, then maybe she takes after her mother too?

Yes exactly.  Dany is told by both Jorah and Selmy that she is like Rhaegar in temperment rather than Aerys. Barristan also says that she looks physically like Dany. Dany dreams that she is Rhaegar twice and Rhaegar wants one more child after Aegon is born or so he tells someone in the room with them according to the Undying vision.  That would likely be Ashara who would be tending to Elia during childbirth.   

Yes, that would throw Viserys' account of Dany's birth into question and that is something that most people don't want to consider.   

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22 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

With regard to the ASOS quotes up thread, why can't Dany be her mother's daughter? If Viserys was Aerys's son in ways Rhaegar never was, then maybe it's because he takes after his mother. Aerys is half the equation. He didn't make these children on his own. I get that Rhaella seems to be sort of forgotten, but if Rhaegar takes after her, and Dany takes after Rhaegar, then maybe she takes after her mother too?

Indeed. Too many people seem to forget that Rhaella is a part of Daenerys, too.

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11 minutes ago, Faera said:

Indeed. Too many people seem to forget that Rhaella is a part of Daenerys, too.

People forget that Barristan, who knew both Dany and Ashera, has said that Dany looked so much like Ashera that she could be her daughter.

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N+A=smokescreen. There was no romance between them - Ashara had a fling with Brandon, who was already betrothed to Cat, so it helped to have Ned around to take the heat off so his brother could sneak off with his side piece.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes exactly.  This would work if Rhaegar and Ashara are Dany's parents.  

Quote

The thread is about Ned & Ashara being Jon's parents? 

The other stuff you quoted also seems to be referring to Dany - nothing to do with Jon...

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46 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The thread is about Ned & Ashara being Jon's parents? 

The other stuff you quoted also seems to be referring to Dany - nothing to do with Jon...

Yes, that's right.  In spite of Ned's romantic interest in Ashara; I don't think anything came of it considering that she was probably at Dragonstone with Elia and Rhaegar after the tourney at Harrenhal.  So it's more likely that Dany is Ashara's and Jon is Lyanna's.  

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, that's right.  In spite of Ned's romantic interest in Ashara; I don't think anything came of it considering that she was probably at Dragonstone with Elia and Rhaegar after the tourney at Harrenhal.  So it's more likely that Dany is Ashara's and Jon is Lyanna's.

Gotcha. The video is using Ashara being with Elia as evidence that N+A=J

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21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gotcha. The video is using Ashara being with Elia as evidence that N+A=J

How about something straight out of the books:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"My son Bran …"

To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"

Robert had asked him the very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."

No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

Ned is thinking about his children.  He doesn't include Jon even in his private thoughts.

 

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11 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The Order of the Greenhand is one of my favorite programs on ASOIAF.  They released an episode yesterday that I consider as one of their best.  They present the theory that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I have always agreed that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar but I believed Lyanna was where Jon came out of.  The father being Brandon or Mance.  After watching this video, I am no longer convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but rather Ashara and Ned.

 

This theory also presents an interesting parallel to the story of Gillie, Mance Rayder Junior, Craster Junior, Jon Snow, and young Griffin.  The story of Jon and Ned are similar in some ways.  Ned sends a royal baby away to safety with the mother of his own child in order to protect that child.  Jon sends away the baby boy of the king-beyond-the-wall to protect that child.  You could say that both the child of Rhaegar and Mance have king's blood.  Griffin is the equivalent of Mance Rayder junior.  Craster junior is the current day equal of baby Jon.  The irony is that the boys sent away to safety may play lesser roles in the story than the "lesser" boys who stayed behind.  In Jon's case, he went with Ned to the north.  I can see Ashara going along with this because she is loyal to the Targaryens.  It also saved her honor because Ned was never going to marry her anyway.  She had to disappear for many reasons.  Gillie is the current day equivalent of Ashara in the sense that they agreed to care for the baby of another woman in order to save that life.  Both women made sacrifices.

Mance and Lyanna produced Jon.  I do like the Order's Y-T channel. 

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Honestly I would prefer NAJ because RLJ is so cliche, boring and meaningless.

Jon should be a bastard who became king by his deeds, not a hidden prince with best claim to throne. 

What is the point for him to be a targ? 

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Honestly I would prefer NAJ because RLJ is so cliche, boring and meaningless.

Jon should be a bastard who became king by his deeds, not a hidden prince with best claim to throne. 

What is the point for him to be a targ? 

Jon could never become king by his deeds.  His awful deeds got him killed.  He just betrayed the kingdom and the Night's Watch over a sister.  There is no way Jon should become king.  And I don't think he will. 

Edited by The Transporter

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