In support of N + A = J

[AlaskanSandman]

22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think because you have to assume something it's wrong. I disagree that R+L is a bunch of what if's though. It's an answer to a question: Who are Jon's parents? & thus far the most satisfactory answer I have seen, where everything fits, nothing is a stretch, & there isn't a bunch of guess work involved is R+L=J 

 

I try very hard not to do this - so if I have I apologize.

 

I think possibly there are some clues to something there. At the very least the fact that we have conflicting stories about when Viserys & co left KL is interesting. I was arguing against anyone other than R&L equalling J not about Dany's parents. 

 

Almost the entire post you quoted was saying that they most certainly did talk. 

IMO if there were a romance or sexual encounter between them we would have some indication of it, like we do with Rhaegar & Lyanna. 

Well based on how others on here classify reaching and things not explicitly in the text. Though i think there is more than enough with Rhaegar and Lyanna that its a lil jump, but i do agree it is a jump though. As those posters point out, the book suggest Eddard and never once actually suggest Lyanna out right. Though there is clues, it's still not out right ever stated.

No not you particularly haha just in general speaking  

Again, some of this is general and not about you and your thoughts. More just the general topic of debate, information, and interpretation that we're all loosely talking about.

Yes i think they talked haha just a round about argument bringing up other scenarios to show the silliness of basing things solely on the fact the books not spelling it out right.

I totally understand. This is the general feeling by most as the text gives so little, other than circumstantial clues on them, that on thier own dont add up. IMO this is GRRM being smart enough to not use the same tricks over and over again, or the game would be way to easy. If the clues for Ashara were the same as Lyanna's, it would've been much easier to figure out. Almost like using dreams as one subset of clue dropping for some things, while using conversations or some other form to drop other types of clues. A tactic we can actually see Martin using. Martin likely being even smarter than this, and dropping them even more subtly. Like metaphors, situations in which were given multiples possible excuses for, like say, the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne, and then back slowly with examples of how said magic actually works. Martin has proven to be a master at using multiple ways of getting clues at people. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I totally understand. This is the general feeling by most as the text gives so little, other than circumstantial clues on them, that on thier own dont add up. IMO this is GRRM being smart enough to not use the same tricks over and over again, or the game would be way to easy. If the clues for Ashara were the same as Lyanna's, it would've been much easier to figure out. Almost like using dreams as one subset of clue dropping for some things, while using conversations or some other form to drop other types of clues. A tactic we can actually see Martin using. Martin likely being even smarter than this, and dropping them even more subtly. Like metaphors, situations in which were given multiples possible excuses for, like say, the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne, and then back slowly with examples of how said magic actually works. Martin has proven to be a master at using multiple ways of getting clues at people. 

On that we can most definitely agree! I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the ending is something no one has theorized. 

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

On that we can most definitely agree! I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the ending is something no one has theorized. 

I would love that even more honestly hahah despite alot of people, i actually have no clinging desire for the text to go one way or the other and would love if he's fooled us all. 

I do like the idea of Ashara and Ned and even like the idea of Dany being of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Despite my growing interpretations of the books

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I would love that even more honestly hahah despite alot of people, i actually have no clinging desire for the text to go one way or the other and would love if he's fooled us all. 

I do like the idea of Ashara and Ned and even like the idea of Dany being of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Despite my growing interpretations of the books

Oh me too. I would love for something to have been right there in front of us this whole time & we ALL missed it. 

I like the idea of Dany being Lyanna & Rhaegar's or Ned & Ashara I think I just get worked up when Dany isn't who she thinks, Jon's parents are N&A or R&L or N&W etc, Tyrion's a secret Targ, Jaime & Cersei are secret Targs, Aegon is or isn't real, Mance is Rhaegar or Arthur, babies have been swapped in every different direction & I think No! Someone has to be who they say they are damn it! Lol

[Ralphis Baratheon]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I just get worked up when Dany isn't who she thinks, Jon's parents are N&A or R&L or N&W etc, Tyrion's a secret Targ, Jaime & Cersei are secret Targs, Aegon is or isn't real, Mance is Rhaegar or Arthur, babies have been swapped in every different direction & I think No! Someone has to be who they say they are damn it! Lol

I agree. Though I actually like the theory that Mance is Rhaegar AND Arthur, it means that Rhaegar was in fact his own best friend.

[AlaskanSandman]

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh me too. I would love for something to have been right there in front of us this whole time & we ALL missed it. 

I like the idea of Dany being Lyanna & Rhaegar's or Ned & Ashara I think I just get worked up when Dany isn't who she thinks, Jon's parents are N&A or R&L or N&W etc, Tyrion's a secret Targ, Jaime & Cersei are secret Targs, Aegon is or isn't real, Mance is Rhaegar or Arthur, babies have been swapped in every different direction & I think No! Someone has to be who they say they are damn it! Lol

I agree, there is definitely far too many baby swapping/people swapping ideas out there

[Wild Bill]

23 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree, there is definitely far too many baby swapping/people swapping ideas out there

But we do have to consider the historical record, that GRRM is presumably mining.

I am standing in for Falcotron while he takes a call of nature, so I might not quite be "on point"...

Menander (closer to Homer than to our modern era) is interesting, with a number of comedies, and with lots of baby swapping involved. Shakespeare's "A Comedy of Errors" is based on Menander, if I am not mistaken, and the "Boys of Syracuse" follow - a jolly good show, if I might say...  

[acwill07]

The fact that anyone views N + A = J as a viable theory cracks me up.  There is no legitimate textual evidence to back it up, yet folks want to run with it anyway.  I've got news for everyone: R + L = J, and it's as simple as that.  People on this board tend to overthink everything, but this is going beyond that IMO.

[AlaskanSandman]

15 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

But we do have to consider the historical record, that GRRM is presumably mining.

I am standing in for Falcotron while he takes a call of nature, so I might not quite be "on point"...

Menander (closer to Homer than to our modern era) is interesting, with a number of comedies, and with lots of baby swapping involved. Shakespeare's "A Comedy of Errors" is based on Menander, if I am not mistaken, and the "Boys of Syracuse" follow - a jolly good show, if I might say...  

Those are the very clues my theory is based around. If one actually looked at my thread, its quite inclusive and covers all angles. This is why i engage in these conversations more than most as ive done alot of self work to arrive to my theory. 

Though some arguments against are circle arguments. Like when a flat earther ends with, well have you ever been to space. Or a religious person ends with, well its all faith. Circle arguments that really aren't worth worrying about.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I agree. Though I actually like the theory that Mance is Rhaegar AND Arthur, it means that Rhaegar was in fact his own best friend

I'm sold! Haha! That's great

[Wild Bill]

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Those are the very clues my theory is based around. If one actually looked at my thread, its quite inclusive and covers all angles. This is why i engage in these conversations more than most as ive done alot of self work to arrive to my theory. 

Though some arguments against are circle arguments. Like when a flat earther ends with, well have you ever been to space. Or a religious person ends with, well its all faith. Circle arguments that really aren't worth worrying about.

Which thread is "yours"?  I enjoy a good argument, though, generally, do not actually argue unless I can give some significant input, or, as in this thread, a bit of humour...

[AlaskanSandman]

39 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

Which thread is "yours"?  I enjoy a good argument, though, generally, do not actually argue unless I can give some significant input, or, as in this thread, a bit of humour...

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148587-jon-dany-true-identities-updating/

[Faera]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Um, Knight of the Laughing Tree??? Only happened cause Howland was bullied.

Ah, so we need to assume Lyanna was the knight, I'm guessing? I personally have my reservations - and I also think it is entirely possible they could have met at any point during that grand tourney.

I also I still don't see how any of this equates to Ashara being disgraced at the tourney because Lyanna was named TQoL&B, rather than the more likely interpretation that "disgrace" means her virtue was, shall we say, "compromised" by "Stark". If she had a romantic affiliation with Rhaegar and or Elia, I think it would have come up by now.

If anyone's virtue was compromised because of Rhaegar at the tourney, it was Lyanna herself (and even that's a stretch).

[Ygrain]

2 minutes ago, Faera said:

If anyone's virtue was compromised because of Rhaegar at the tourney, it was Lyanna herself (and even that's a stretch).

Brandon did seem to see it that way, though I believe being unhorsed by Rhaegar might have had something to do with that, too.

[Faera]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Brandon did seem to see it that way, though I believe being unhorsed by Rhaegar might have had something to do with that, too.

It probably didn't. Brandon seems like the sort of bloke always looking for a fight, based on what Lady Dustin said and the whole "wild wolf" thing. Even if he knew the speculated notion that Rhaegar's action was a mark of respect for Lyanna's valour in defending her friend's honour, Brandon would probably have been just as hot-headed.

[YOVMO]

On ‎10‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 11:21 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Order of the Greenhand is one of my favorite programs on ASOIAF.  They released an episode yesterday that I consider as one of their best.  They present the theory that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I have always agreed that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar but I believed Lyanna was where Jon came out of.  The father being Brandon or Mance.  After watching this video, I am no longer convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but rather Ashara and Ned.

 

This theory also presents an interesting parallel to the story of Gillie, Mance Rayder Junior, Craster Junior, Jon Snow, and young Griffin.  The story of Jon and Ned are similar in some ways.  Ned sends a royal baby away to safety with the mother of his own child in order to protect that child.  Jon sends away the baby boy of the king-beyond-the-wall to protect that child.  You could say that both the child of Rhaegar and Mance have king's blood.  Griffin is the equivalent of Mance Rayder junior.  Craster junior is the current day equal of baby Jon.  The irony is that the boys sent away to safety may play lesser roles in the story than the "lesser" boys who stayed behind.  In Jon's case, he went with Ned to the north.  I can see Ashara going along with this because she is loyal to the Targaryens.  It also saved her honor because Ned was never going to marry her anyway.  She had to disappear for many reasons.  Gillie is the current day equivalent of Ashara in the sense that they agreed to care for the baby of another woman in order to save that life.  Both women made sacrifices.

Good Video. I know he is a controversial guy but I really like Preston Jacobs Series Tower Tower Joy Joy where he argues that R+L=D; B+A=J. From what we know about Ashara and about Dornish women in general Brandon is a far more likely person to get down with her than Ned is.

Preston is a bit out there sometimes but I like him a lot. He is funny, presents his case well and is interesting...even when he is dead wrong (like Robb naming Cat his heir) but I think he actually makes a compelling argument in this series. Give it a watch.

[Dragonsbone]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Good Video. I know he is a controversial guy but I really like Preston Jacobs Series Tower Tower Joy Joy where he argues that R+L=D; B+A=J. From what we know about Ashara and about Dornish women in general Brandon is a far more likely person to get down with her than Ned is.

Preston is a bit out there sometimes but I like him a lot. He is funny, presents his case well and is interesting...even when he is dead wrong (like Robb naming Cat his heir) but I think he actually makes a compelling argument in this series. Give it a watch.

He also consitently states that the world where the series takes place is an apocalyptic world after a nuclear war and that magic and dragons are higher developed technologies from the world before the war. Even though GRRM has severley stated that this is not the case. So if someone denies the Author, you know where you are up with him.

[YOVMO]

26 minutes ago, Dragonsbone said:

He also consitently stating that the world where the series takes Place is an apocalyptic world after a nuclear war and that magic and dragons are higher developed technologies from the world before the war. Even though GRRM has severaööy stated that this is not the case. So if someone denies the Author, you know where you are up to him.

Yeah I don't buy the post apocalyptic stuff at all...though I enjoyed the videos. He is flawed for sure, but entertaining and I do think some of his theories have a lot of merit.

[AlaskanSandman]

15 hours ago, Faera said:

Ah, so we need to assume Lyanna was the knight, I'm guessing? I personally have my reservations - and I also think it is entirely possible they could have met at any point during that grand tourney.

I also I still don't see how any of this equates to Ashara being disgraced at the tourney because Lyanna was named TQoL&B, rather than the more likely interpretation that "disgrace" means her virtue was, shall we say, "compromised" by "Stark". If she had a romantic affiliation with Rhaegar and or Elia, I think it would have come up by now.

If anyone's virtue was compromised because of Rhaegar at the tourney, it was Lyanna herself (and even that's a stretch).

Well you dont have to, but it is generally excepted that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and upon searching for the Knight when he disappeared, led to Rhaegar and Lyanna actually meeting. Its part of the well excepted R+L theory. 

 You wouldn't based on disregarding everything else i said, as you dont believe some of it and that's fair. 

Howland, as i suggest, is the reason Lyanna and Rhaegar met, and is also the reason Ashara and Eddard met. Which actually does work for the N+A=J, if you ignore Ned's honor later down the line. I do believe though that Eddard fell for Ashara Dayne at Harrenhal as many other men also wanted her. She was single and desirable. 

As to the dishonoring of Harrenhal. (Not "disgrace", the words actually used are important) Her "honor", not her 'Virtue" was hurt. Peoples honor can be hurt by a great many things. Personally ive always found it a lil strange and a show of character when peoples minds automatically jump to rape and sex. Its no wonder the show is full of it, its all every one wants haha

Having said that, once you step back and actually try to think about what else it could be based on the clues. Many, not just me, have arrived to the idea that the dishonor, was Rhaegar choosing the new woman he just met, over Ashara or her wife. 

To which Ashara being the paramour to Elia and Rhaegar would explain why Elia would be comfortable with Ashara, as Elia is the one who brought Ashara to court, around the same time of her complicated birthing. Ashara Dayne as a surrogate mother is actually a reasonable idea given the situation they are in with Elia and Rhaegar's desire to have a 3rd child to full fill some prophecy he's obsessed with. 

It would explain why Ashara "looked" to Stark. Well, yea, she watched Lyanna get crowned. 

A jealous and spurned Ashara Dayne would explain who told Brandon of Rhaegar and Lyanna also.

The memory of Rhaella's departure gives the set up of when Ashara left K.L. for Dragonstone to birth Dany, provided that Viserys and Jamie are both actually remembering correctly. 

Prior to that departure would place Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne in K.L. together for at least a month or two while Rhaegar and Aerys marshal the Royal forces and wait for Dornish forces from the south to arrive. 

Plus it explains why House Dayne and Eddard him self are both telling the same lie, that Wylla is Jon's mother. Edric even get's mad when being called a liar. So Edric does not believe Ashara to be Jon's mother, at all. He simply suggest that Eddard and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal, but that she killed her self possibly sad over Eddard fathering Jon on Wylla. All taking place supposedly after he married Caitlynn. Making Eddard the biggest douche ever. 

 

[maudisdottir]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As to the dishonoring of Harrenhal. (Not "disgrace", the words actually used are important) Her "honor", not her 'Virtue" was hurt. Peoples honor can be hurt by a great many things. Personally ive always found it a lil strange and a show of character when peoples minds automatically jump to rape and sex.

Historically, a woman who was "dishonoured" meant her virtue had been compromised. The dictionary even says "violate the chastity of a woman". Read any of those old Regency romances and the girls are always conscious of being put in a compromising position with a male and being "dishonoured". It didn't necessarily mean sex - if a young lady was alone with a male, she was dishonoured because the potential for sex was as good as the deed, as far as society was concerned.

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It would explain why Ashara "looked" to Stark. Well, yea, she watched Lyanna get crowned. 

Why would Barristan wish that he could have won the tourney, so that Ashara would have "looked to me instead of Stark"? That makes no sense if it's Lyanna, or in any of these scenarios.

As for N+A in general, another thing I rarely see addressed is - why would Ashara be interested in Ned? She's one of the most (if not the most) beautiful women in Westeros from an ancient house, and is lady-in-waiting to the future Queen. She could have any man in the Seven Kingdoms - why would she fall for shy, plain, second son Ned, who has nothing to offer but his honour? Would Ashara be satisfied with life as the lady of some second rate keep in the frozen North?