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In support of N + A = J


Damsel in Distress

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On 10/7/2017 at 11:21 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

The Order of the Greenhand is one of my favorite programs on ASOIAF.  They released an episode yesterday that I consider as one of their best.  They present the theory that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I have always agreed that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar but I believed Lyanna was where Jon came out of.  The father being Brandon or Mance.  After watching this video, I am no longer convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but rather Ashara and Ned.

 

This theory also presents an interesting parallel to the story of Gillie, Mance Rayder Junior, Craster Junior, Jon Snow, and young Griffin.  The story of Jon and Ned are similar in some ways.  Ned sends a royal baby away to safety with the mother of his own child in order to protect that child.  Jon sends away the baby boy of the king-beyond-the-wall to protect that child.  You could say that both the child of Rhaegar and Mance have king's blood.  Griffin is the equivalent of Mance Rayder junior.  Craster junior is the current day equal of baby Jon.  The irony is that the boys sent away to safety may play lesser roles in the story than the "lesser" boys who stayed behind.  In Jon's case, he went with Ned to the north.  I can see Ashara going along with this because she is loyal to the Targaryens.  It also saved her honor because Ned was never going to marry her anyway.  She had to disappear for many reasons.  Gillie is the current day equivalent of Ashara in the sense that they agreed to care for the baby of another woman in order to save that life.  Both women made sacrifices.

I will predict, Mellisandre will burn Craster's son and Jon's corpse to make a miracle.  I see the similarities and parallels with what happened in the past and what happened at the wall with the baby switching.  I have to agree with The Order here.  Jon's father is a Stark, either Ned or Brandon.

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10 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Historically, a woman who was "dishonoured" meant her virtue had been compromised. The dictionary even says "violate the chastity of a woman". Read any of those old Regency romances and the girls are always conscious of being put in a compromising position with a male and being "dishonoured". It didn't necessarily mean sex - if a young lady was alone with a male, she was dishonoured because the potential for sex was as good as the deed, as far as society was concerned.

Why would Barristan wish that he could have won the tourney, so that Ashara would have "looked to me instead of Stark"? That makes no sense if it's Lyanna, or in any of these scenarios.

As for N+A in general, another thing I rarely see addressed is - why would Ashara be interested in Ned? She's one of the most (if not the most) beautiful women in Westeros from an ancient house, and is lady-in-waiting to the future Queen. She could have any man in the Seven Kingdoms - why would she fall for shy, plain, second son Ned, who has nothing to offer but his honour? Would Ashara be satisfied with life as the lady of some second rate keep in the frozen North?

Barristan wishes he could have won the Tourney to crown Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty. This would have potentially prevented her "dishonor" and prevented her from "Looking to Stark". This is also his greatest failure he feels.

So IMO it completely backs up the idea that Ashara was the (unknown or known?) paramour of Rhaegar, who upon Rhaegar winning and crowning Lyanna instead of Barristan winning and crowning Ashara, thus caused her dishonor and her to "look to" Lyanna "Stark".

To me, it's right there in the text. Even ignoring my suggestion of already being Rhaegar's paramour. 

Edit- The very fact that Barristan feels that him crowning Ashara over Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, would prevent the dishonor and her looking to Stark, strongly implies on it's own, that something was previously going on between Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne for her to even be dishonored by this event.

An idea backed up later by accusations that she had killed her self for the loss of the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal. Why would you mourn some one who raped you? But you would mourn an old lover. 

Backed possibly again by the song of the Lady throwing her self from a cliff over her dead prince, that Arya hears. To which Arya say's she should have killed those who killed her prince. Which would add a sense of Irony, given it was Arya's father and his best friend Robert responsible. 

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Barristan wishes he could have won the Tourney to crown Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty. This would have potentially prevented her "dishonor" and prevented her from "Looking to Stark". This is also his greatest failure he feels.

So IMO it completely backs up the idea that Ashara was the (unknown or known?) paramour of Rhaegar, who upon Rhaegar winning and crowning Lyanna instead of Barristan winning and crowning Ashara, thus caused her dishonor and her to "look to" Lyanna "Stark".

To me, it's right there in the text. Even ignoring my suggestion of already being Rhaegar's paramour. 

Edit- The very fact that Barristan feels that him crowning Ashara over Rhaegar crowning Lyanna, would prevent the dishonor and her looking to Stark, strongly implies on it's own, that something was previously going on between Rhaegar and Ashara Dayne for her to even be dishonored by this event.

An idea backed up later by accusations that she had killed her self for the loss of the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal. Why would you mourn some one who raped you? But you would mourn an old lover. 

Backed possibly again by the song of the Lady throwing her self from a cliff over her dead prince, that Arya hears. To which Arya say's she should have killed those who killed her prince. Which would add a sense of Irony, given it was Arya's father and his best friend Robert responsible. 

I must admit I am rather baffled. You consider a dishonour that Ashara was passed in the crowning, but not that she had a child out of wedlock?

Compare here (TWOW spoiler)

Spoiler

Sweetrobin and Sansa talking in the Alayne chapter:

“The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.” Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut. “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”

 

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1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

I must admit I am rather baffled. You consider a dishonour that Ashara was passed in the crowning, but not that she had a child out of wedlock?

Compare here (TWOW spoiler)

  Hide contents

Sweetrobin and Sansa talking in the Alayne chapter:

“The Lord of the Eyrie can do as he likes. Can’t I still love you, even if I have to marry her? Ser Harrold has a common woman. Benjicot says she’s carrying his bastard.” Benjicot should learn to keep his fool’s mouth shut. “Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?” She pulled her fingers from his grasp. “Would you dishonor me that way?”

 

Yes, that's exactly what im saying. Cause look again at what Barristan is saying as i listed above.

The act that dishonored Ashara, could have been prevented by Barristan winning and crowning her. This is the thing that haunts him as his greatest failure. He literally pinpoints for us with out outright saying it, what the dishonor was and when it happened, and how it could have been prevented.

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He literally gives us the 

  • who- Rhaegar, Lyanna, Ashara
  • what- Dishonor
  • Where- Harrenhal
  • When-Tourney of Harrenhal, moment of Jousting Victory
  • Why- crowning of queen of love and beauty to another woman
  • how- Crowning of Queen of Love and Beauty to Lyanna instead of Ashara

Why would Barristan feel that winning some stupid Tourney would prevent Ashara from getting raped? Or from hooking up with Eddard or Brandon (who also lost before Barristan did)? It wouldn't. Him winning wouldn't make him look any more or less suitable to Ashara than Brandon having lost. 

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50 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Barristan feel that winning some stupid Tourney would prevent Ashara from getting raped? Or from hooking up with Eddard or Brandon (who also lost before Barristan did)? It wouldn't. Him winning wouldn't make him look any more or less suitable to Ashara than Brandon having lost. 

He doesn't mention a rape - and though that would count as a dishonour, too, Barristan's feelings about it would be way more different than sad.

The passage goes:

She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan never told Ashara about his feelings for her, and he wonders what would have happened if he had - i.e., the crowning here equals an expression of his romantic interest. Now, why do people express their love for someone? They hope for reciprocation, and if Ashara had reciprocated his feelings, or at least felt complimented enough to disregard other men for a while, she wouldn't have hooked up with the man who dishonoured her and started the chain of events that led to her suicide.

IMHO, you give Dareon's song too much credit - if the singers would have people believe that Robert's Rebellion was a fight between Robert and Rhaegar over Lyanna, then how does Ashara fit all of a sudden? And even if the song was about Ashara, what if there was unrequited love? Or what if the song was actually inspired by an echo of Bael the Bard legend, with Bael as a prince who fell in battle? Or what if it is just a concoction of various romantic motives with zero historical background? There is so little information about the content of the song.

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He doesn't mention a rape - and though that would count as a dishonour, too, Barristan's feelings about it would be way more different than sad.

The passage goes:

She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan never told Ashara about his feelings for her, and he wonders what would have happened if he had - i.e., the crowning here equals an expression of his romantic interest. Now, why do people express their love for someone? They hope for reciprocation, and if Ashara had reciprocated his feelings, or at least felt complimented enough to disregard other men for a while, she wouldn't have hooked up with the man who dishonoured her and started the chain of events that led to her suicide.

IMHO, you give Dareon's song too much credit - if the singers would have people believe that Robert's Rebellion was a fight between Robert and Rhaegar over Lyanna, then how does Ashara fit all of a sudden? And even if the song was about Ashara, what if there was unrequited love? Or what if the song was actually inspired by an echo of Bael the Bard legend, with Bael as a prince who fell in battle? Or what if it is just a concoction of various romantic motives with zero historical background? There is so little information about the content of the song.

That makes no sense. Why would she kill her self over the man who dishonored her?

Again, how would him winning cause Ashara to be more inclined towards him over Brandon or Eddard? Brandon who lost before Barristan? Already looking better than him. Eddard never competed so looking better than him. The only person he wasn't better than, was Rhaegar.

Yet every one wants to act like Ashara had to hook up with Brandon cause she was dornish and must want a man like that. Or, she hooked up with Eddard who dishonored her? By either raping her, or i guess as you claim. Got her with child out of wedlock.

Never mind this ignores the fact the Edric believes, as told to him by his family, that Wylla is Jons mother and that Eddard cheated on Ashara. Also all this took place while Eddard was married. Keep cutting this way but it just does not add up. At all. It requires ignoring one fact or another and i cant go with theories that just conviently leave out known accounts.

And maybe on the song, except Bael was a king, not a prince, so youd have to twist things again to fit this idea. No one else possibly killed them selves over a prince. Daeron is also from the south. Singers often sing tales that disagree with history, so that proves nothing. And why would i reach for some obscure idea of it being a random about randoms, when there is already a more important character being possibly suggested at as the person of the song? 

Im sure this can be loosely debated against, but ive yet to see any convincing argument to convince me other wise. Any one other that Rhaegar dishonoring could've easily been dealt with by Barristan also. 

I know some just dont want it though and can indeed keep debating against it. Ive seen the same thing with the guy dead set on believing LF age is a mystery that proves the war didn't start till 283. Though i disagree with him and think its more an error by Martin, as looking into it as i always do, there is indeed a problem listed with his age. See though, i can actually find and see what he's talking about and list it for him for his argument. I have a hard time doing that for these Ashara Dayne theories, even though i like playing Devil's Advocate. There's nothing i can find to actually entertain though, it's not that i havn't tried. 

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:37 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

I can bring up all the right clues all day and people with their own ideas will always shoot them down irregardless of the logic or clues. 

Exp. -   Viserys recalls leaving K.L. at night on what sounds like a smugglers ship. Jamie recalls Rhaella leaving in the morning. Most just chalk this up to error. Viserys was young and must have misremembered. Yet, what if it's not. What if both are recalling different? If so, then we have a body double switch. Right after Rhaegar left K.L. with Elia in K.L. Meaning Ashara, her lady in waiting, could've been there. But this doesn't fit into theories any one else has going, so they're just quick to dismiss it. Never mind that this may be a clue. This places Ashara in proximity with Rhaegar during the time of Dany's conception, but hey, we'll just ignore that.

The fact that Dany see's Rhaegar far more than she sees Aerys, with even seeing her self as Rhaegar. Must just be cause Rhaegar was her only good role model, never mind the fact Dany has never met him. 

I don't know if this is hearkening back to something I said in your other thread (and I apologize for the intrusion if it isn't), but I wasn't trying to dismiss your point out of hand, and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I just wanted to discuss the more mundane reasons why Dany might "see herself as Rhaegar" so I could see why you thought those reasons insufficient to explain the text (since I didn't see the insufficiency). I dropped the point early because it seemed like something you didn't wish to discuss in depth (which is another reason why I started talking about Aegon's birth, as you're clearly a numbers guy, and liked discussing the timeline, although I am, unfortunately, not a numbers gal).

I actually had a bunch of quotes from the text I thought could work with your interpretation of events, because the text definitely presents Dany (and Aegon/Young Griff and Jon Snow) as Rhaegar Targaryen's heirs, regardless of who their parents are (I think, as you think it's because of who their--or some of their--parents are). He's definitely presented as a father or (foster) father-figure or role model for these kids (even Jon Snow, who has no apparent connection to him, except via Aemon Targaryen!) and their ambitions are undeniably meant as a follow-up of Rhaegar's own ambitions (whether they were forced upon him or no). And although Dany herself never met Rhaegar, Viserys certainly did, and idolized him, and prioritized avenging him even ahead of avenging his father (in his own words, and in Dany's description of how he's always re-waging the Battle of the Trident in his mind), and Barristan Selmy and sometimes Jorah Mormont continue the tradition, because Dany enjoys it and because they understand that she needs a positive role model within her own family to teach her how to be royalty, which she had never any opportunity to learn prior, and no one to learn it from--certainly not Viserys, who she disdains and fears, and who didn't have much opportunity to learn it either--which is a big problem for a girl with ambitions to queenship! (Rhaegar is the only suitable royal role model within her own family*, which is why she latched onto Viserys's romanticized stories of him and took them in her own direction, like going on to free the slaves because she thought it was how he would have solved the dilemma, as Jorah and Barristan insist both that she requires an army and that she cannot have a slave army, as well as that Rhaegar's army were all free men. Rhaegar is often presented as the needle of her moral compass, though not always.) 

*It's also important for young Targaryens (with or without royal ambitions) to have a Targaryen role model because of the whole "blood of the dragon" and "Targaryens answered to the laws of neither gods nor men" nonsense. It makes having a positive role model outside of the family, to teach you how to be royalty or a dragon or a Targaryen (or whatever :rolleyes:), practically impossible! They really limited themselves by adhering too strictly to that, and buying in to their own cult of personality. 

I meant to get back to your other thread, but I hadn't been feeling so hot, so I was offline for a bit. I'll try to keep in mind to stop in for a peek at any new updates (I saw the other ones, though I didn't comment, sorry). Anyway, I see a marked improvement (for my tastes, least ways) in the way you presented your analysis with more quotes from the text, so we can see for ourselves what your supports are, and I wanted to thank you for that in the other thread, as I did get confused a time or two about exactly what your (preferred) argument was, since you had so many different options of how it might have happened. :cheers:

ETA: As for your Viserys thought experiment... I suppose I fail by your standards, because I'd simply conclude another mundane reason for the seeming discrepancy--it appears to take a few days to sail to Dragonstone from King's Landing, so even though Jaime remembers Rhaella leaving in the morning, and Viserys remembers sailing at twilight, with the moonlight (or was it starlight?) on the black sails**, they could simply be describing different legs of the journey. That makes sense to me, because it probably seemed a grand adventure to young (overprotected) Prince Viserys, whereas Jaime was remembering her flight in context of her rape, and how she was cloaked and hooded (to hide the bruises, it appears, since it was a royal wheelhouse, so she likely wasn't hiding her identity from anyone, as being hooded doesn't preclude seeing someone's face), and how the handmaidens who attended her bath gossiped about how battered she was, poor thing. Only after I found something wrong with the mundane interpretation of events would I conclude it was a true discrepancy and search for a reason within the text and then without (like it might simply have been a flub by the author). We all have different ways of processing information, though, so where I might see something simple, you might see a nuance or complexity or problem that I missed. 

**As another failure, lol, I'm not certain it was a smuggler's ship, though it could have been, with black sails, or it could be that the sails were black with the red dragon of their house painted on, and by night the red dragon was barely visible, if at all; was there something other than the black sails that made you think it was a smuggler's ship? I ask because I don't remember when the entire royal fleet joined them at Dragonstone, though I would presume they sailed with--and on--it, for protection's sake (which is where the black sails--with the red dragon--come into the equation).

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52 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That makes no sense. Why would she kill her self over the man who dishonored her?

Well, and why did she have sex with the man? Didn't she, you know, like him? Perhaps even more than liked?

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Again, how would him winning cause Ashara to be more inclined towards him over Brandon or Eddard? Brandon who lost before Barristan? Already looking better than him. Eddard never competed so looking better than him. The only person he wasn't better than, was Rhaegar.

The point is not being a better jouster but crowning her as QoLab as a sign that he loved her.

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Yet every one wants to act like Ashara had to hook up with Brandon cause she was dornish and must want a man like that.

Brandon is described as smoking hot, charming and self-confident. One doesn't need to be a Dornishwoman to fall for him, Barbrey certainly wasn't.

Plus, remember what Barristan thinks about young girls and fire men, as compared to mud men? On what experience is he basing his assessment that young girls tend to fall for the bad guys?

BTW, the dutiful Rhaegar doesn't sound like a fire man, either, despite the tons of ladies fawning over him.

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Or, she hooked up with Eddard who dishonored her? By either raping her, or i guess as you claim. Got her with child out of wedlock.

Which would be both totally out of character for him. He's not a rapist, he's not a type for casual sex, and he's not a type for premarital sex, either. And if he slipped, he would immediately do what Robb did: make right by the woman and marry her. Neither was promised at that time; Arthur Dayne's sister  and Lord of Winterfell's son would be an acceptable match.

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Never mind this ignores the fact the Edric believes, as told to him by his family, that Wylla is Jons mother and that Eddard cheated on Ashara. Also all this took place while Eddard was married. Keep cutting this way but it just does not add up. At all. It requires ignoring one fact or another and i cant go with theories that just conviently leave out known accounts.

Yep, it doesn't add up. Which is why it is not true.

BTW, Edric doesn't say that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by siring a bastard on a servant, it's more along the lines of "he loved her but married another". A commonborn mistress is never a competition for a lady, though the lady may be annoyed.

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And maybe on the song, except Bael was a king, not a prince, so youd have to twist things again to fit this idea. No one else possibly killed them selves over a prince. Daeron is also from the south. Singers often sing tales that disagree with history, so that proves nothing.

You are aware that the latter bolded actually supports the former, right? 

BTW, a prince makes for easier rhyming than Lord Paramount's son, that's awfully long, and killed in battle sounds way better than strangled to death by the order of a mad king. It makes for a wonderful tragedy worth a song, and unimportant details like his betrothal to another be damned. That's how Holywood singers work.

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And why would i reach for some obscure idea of it being a random about randoms, when there is already a more important character being possibly suggested at as the person of the song? 

Oh, it well might be about Ashara's suicide, as a reminder for the reader before the reveal, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of the song is true.

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Im sure this can be loosely debated against, but ive yet to see any convincing argument to convince me other wise. Any one other that Rhaegar dishonoring could've easily been dealt with by Barristan also. 

Except that the grudge (if it can be called that) which Barristan holds against Rhaegar is based on the political secrets that Rhaegar had, not on the fact that Rhaegar impregnated his crush, which destroyed her chances for a good marriage and eventually led to her suicide, so Rhaegar couldn't have been the guy, and neither could Eddard, for the same reason, Barristan has only respect for him.

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I know some just dont want it though and can indeed keep debating against it. Ive seen the same thing with the guy dead set on believing LF age is a mystery that proves the war didn't start till 283. Though i disagree with him and think its more an error by Martin, as looking into it as i always do, there is indeed a problem listed with his age. See though, i can actually find and see what he's talking about and list it for him for his argument. I have a hard time doing that for these Ashara Dayne theories, even though i like playing Devil's Advocate. There's nothing i can find to actually entertain though, it's not that i havn't tried. 

It has nothing to do with wanting but with following the clues, or their absence, in the text. GRRM is pretty thorough in laying clues for future reveals, yet for Ashara and Rhaegar, one has to twist bits into pretzels and the best you can get is that they were living under one roof for some time and that a song might be about Ashara. Totally not enough.

As for wanting, I'd very much want YG to be the real deal, so that at least one of poor Elia's children lives. Sadly, clues rather seem to be pointing to the contrary.

 

PS Some time ago, I wondered whom Brandon would have crowned, had he won. I wondered very much if he might have caused a similar scandal by crowning Ashara.

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Barristan wishes he could have won the Tourney to crown Ashara Queen of Love and Beauty. This would have potentially prevented her "dishonor" and prevented her from "Looking to Stark". This is also his greatest failure he feels.

So IMO it completely backs up the idea that Ashara was the (unknown or known?) paramour of Rhaegar, who upon Rhaegar winning and crowning Lyanna instead of Barristan winning and crowning Ashara, thus caused her dishonor and her to "look to" Lyanna "Stark".

To me, it's right there in the text. Even ignoring my suggestion of already being Rhaegar's paramour. 

Sorry, you've lost me. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue now.

You're still stuck on "dishonour means rape" when from the girl's perspective, she might never feel dishonoured. Hooking up with someone you love or have the hots for is not rape, even though she would have been seen as the "victim" of the dishonour (yet not surprisingly, in most cases she would also be the one stuck with the shame, especially if she fell pregnant as a result). If she was "mad with grief" potentially for "the man who had dishonoured her at Harrenhal" then it sounds consensual to me.

I don't know why Ashara would "look to" Lyanna, and why Barristan wishes he had won so he could crown her QOLAB and then she might have "looked to" him instead. Looked to Lyanna for what? I'm confused about what you're trying to say.

ETA:

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, how would him winning cause Ashara to be more inclined towards him over Brandon or Eddard? Brandon who lost before Barristan? Already looking better than him. Eddard never competed so looking better than him. The only person he wasn't better than, was Rhaegar.

 

Barristan wouldn't have been on Ashara's radar as a potential love interest - he was a Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. If he had won, and crowned her, then she would have known that he loved her. He was hoping that this might have influenced her somehow, although I think poor old romantic Barry's kidding himself here.

The other thing that he laments is that if he had won then Rhaegar wouldn't, and the whole business with Lyanna might never have happened.

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...and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty.

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell.

He doesn't just regret not winning because of Ashara; it was Rhaegar winning that set off everything that led to the Rebellion.

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35 minutes ago, TheSeason said:

I don't know if this is hearkening back to something I said in your other thread (and I apologize for the intrusion if it isn't), but I wasn't trying to dismiss your point out of hand, and I'm sorry if that was the impression I gave. I just wanted to discuss the more mundane reasons why Dany might "see herself as Rhaegar" so I could see why you thought those reasons insufficient to explain the text (since I didn't see the insufficiency). I dropped the point early because it seemed like something you didn't wish to discuss in depth (which is another reason why I started talking about Aegon's birth, as you're clearly a numbers guy, and liked discussing the timeline, although I am, unfortunately, not a numbers gal).

I actually had a bunch of quotes from the text I thought could work with your interpretation of events, because the text definitely presents Dany (and Aegon/Young Griff and Jon Snow) as Rhaegar Targaryen's heirs, regardless of who their parents are (I think, as you think it's because of who their--or some of their--parents are). He's definitely presented as a father or (foster) father-figure or role model for these kids (even Jon Snow, who has no apparent connection to him, except via Aemon Targaryen!) and their ambitions are undeniably meant as a follow-up of Rhaegar's own ambitions (whether they were forced upon him or no). And although Dany herself never met Rhaegar, Viserys certainly did, and idolized him, and prioritized avenging him even ahead of avenging his father (in his own words, and in Dany's description of how he's always re-waging the Battle of the Trident in his mind), and Barristan Selmy and sometimes Jorah Mormont continue the tradition, because Dany enjoys it and because they understand that she needs a positive role model within her own family to teach her how to be royalty, which she had never any opportunity to learn prior, and no one to learn it from--certainly not Viserys, who she disdains and fears, and who didn't have much opportunity to learn it either--which is a big problem for a girl with ambitions to queenship! (Rhaegar is the only suitable royal role model within her own family*, which is why she latched onto Viserys's romanticized stories of him and took them in her own direction, like going on to free the slaves because she thought it was how he would have solved the dilemma, as Jorah and Barristan insist both that she requires an army and that she cannot have a slave army, as well as that Rhaegar's army were all free men. Rhaegar is often presented as the needle of her moral compass, though not always.) 

*It's also important for young Targaryens (with or without royal ambitions) to have a Targaryen role model because of the whole "blood of the dragon" and "Targaryens answered to the laws of neither gods nor men" nonsense. It makes having a positive role model outside of the family, to teach you how to be royalty or a dragon or a Targaryen (or whatever :rolleyes:), practically impossible! They really limited themselves by adhering too strictly to that, and buying in to their own cult of personality. 

I meant to get back to your other thread, but I hadn't been feeling so hot, so I was offline for a bit. I'll try to keep in mind to stop in for a peek at any new updates (I saw the other ones, though I didn't comment, sorry). Anyway, I see a marked improvement (for my tastes, least ways) in the way you presented your analysis with more quotes from the text, so we can see for ourselves what your supports are, and I wanted to thank you for that in the other thread, as I did get confused a time or two about exactly what your (preferred) argument was, since you had so many different options of how it might have happened. :cheers:

ETA: As for your Viserys thought experiment... I suppose I fail by your standards, because I'd simply conclude another mundane reason for the seeming discrepancy--it appears to take a few days to sail to Dragonstone from King's Landing, so even though Jaime remembers Rhaella leaving in the morning, and Viserys remembers sailing at twilight, with the moonlight (or was it starlight?) on the black sails**, they could simply be describing different legs of the journey. That makes sense to me, because it probably seemed a grand adventure to young (overprotected) Prince Viserys, whereas Jaime was remembering her flight in context of her rape, and how she was cloaked and hooded (to hide the bruises, it appears, since it was a royal wheelhouse, so she likely wasn't hiding her identity from anyone, as being hooded doesn't preclude seeing someone's face), and how the handmaidens who attended her bath gossiped about how battered she was, poor thing. Only after I found something wrong with the mundane interpretation of events would I conclude it was a true discrepancy and search for a reason within the text and then without (like it might simply have been a flub by the author). We all have different ways of processing information, though, so where I might see something simple, you might see a nuance or complexity or problem that I missed. 

**As another failure, lol, I'm not certain it was a smuggler's ship, though it could have been, with black sails, or it could be that the sails were black with the red dragon of their house painted on, and by night the red dragon was barely visible, if at all; was there something other than the black sails that made you think it was a smuggler's ship? I ask because I don't remember when the entire royal fleet joined them at Dragonstone, though I would presume they sailed with--and on--it, for protection's sake (which is where the black sails--with the red dragon--come into the equation).

No no hahah nothing against you bro :) Just a general point we all do. So even as a point to all, dont get discouraged when pursuing your ideas :) Sometime you can feel like your arguing at a wall, other times people bring up good points as you do about the smugglers ship. Which may well be, along with the possibility that they're miss remembering. But there is still the option of what i present, and so we should look at all possibilities, but not discredit the fringe just cause there is an easy answer off hand. Thats what liars work off of  when telling their lies, that there is an easy off hand cover that makes sense in the moment ignoring context or situation. 

Yes i did present the option of Aeys raping Ashara for one point.

When excepting Lyanna is Jon's mom, it and questioning who Dany might be that Quiathe seems to be maybe hinting at. It leads to wonder who her parents might be. For her to be in hiding, it would have to be a Targ on one side at least. Same reason to hide Jon. So the only two options are Rhaegar and Aerys. Since there was already a rape situation in which no one was an actual eye witness too, given Maegor's secret passages. Left open the window that it may have been Aerys. 

Given the constant hints at Rhaegar through Danys chapter and the implied Dishonor of Harrenhal being Rhaegar, explains who it really is and makes sense given all the other clues. It was a process of elimination 

And yes those options about the boat are true, other than the obscure reason to have Jamie never actually make physical confirmation it was her, since she was cloaked and hooded, combined with the fact that Jamie and Viserys seem to possibly be remembering things differently. Points more and more fingers towards the realm of possibility. With this simply being when Ashara got out of K.L. and where she likely went, Dragonstone. As there is nothing to say that Ashara was at Starfall when Eddard arrived. Just that she later killed her self from Starfall. 

Since Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia who was also in K.L., at the same time Rhaegar was in K.L. at the same time Daenerys's conception is known to have taken place. Is alot of coincidence. If Martin spelled it out any more in the clues, itd be an orgy of evidence.

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8 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

and the implied Dishonor of Harrenhal being Rhaegar

Do you really believe this, or are you just playing devil's advocate for a theory that you're working through? Because it's implied that the dishonour was "Stark" which is why Stark is named, not Rhaegar. You can't make claims that "it's implied" when the opposite is true, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Rhaegar had a thing with Ashara. Nothing. In five books.

I feel like a broken record.

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22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Well, and why did she have sex with the man? Didn't she, you know, like him? Perhaps even more than liked?

The point is not being a better jouster but crowning her as QoLab as a sign that he loved her.

Brandon is described as smoking hot, charming and self-confident. One doesn't need to be a Dornishwoman to fall for him, Barbrey certainly wasn't.

Plus, remember what Barristan thinks about young girls and fire men, as compared to mud men? On what experience is he basing his assessment that young girls tend to fall for the bad guys?

BTW, the dutiful Rhaegar doesn't sound like a fire man, either, despite the tons of ladies fawning over him.

Which would be both totally out of character for him. He's not a rapist, he's not a type for casual sex, and he's not a type for premarital sex, either. And if he slipped, he would immediately do what Robb did: make right by the woman and marry her. Neither was promised at that time; Arthur Dayne's sister  and Lord of Winterfell's son would be an acceptable match.

Yep, it doesn't add up. Which is why it is not true.

BTW, Edric doesn't say that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by siring a bastard on a servant, it's more along the lines of "he loved her but married another". A commonborn mistress is never a competition for a lady, though the lady may be annoyed.

You are aware that the latter bolded actually supports the former, right? 

BTW, a prince makes for easier rhyming than Lord Paramount's son, that's awfully long, and killed in battle sounds way better than strangled to death by the order of a mad king. It makes for a wonderful tragedy worth a song, and unimportant details like his betrothal to another be damned. That's how Holywood singers work.

Oh, it well might be about Ashara's suicide, as a reminder for the reader before the reveal, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of the song is true.

Except that the grudge (if it can be called that) which Barristan holds against Rhaegar is based on the political secrets that Rhaegar had, not on the fact that Rhaegar impregnated his crush, which destroyed her chances for a good marriage and eventually led to her suicide, so Rhaegar couldn't have been the guy, and neither could Eddard, for the same reason, Barristan has only respect for him.

It has nothing to do with wanting but with following the clues, or their absence, in the text. GRRM is pretty thorough in laying clues for future reveals, yet for Ashara and Rhaegar, one has to twist bits into pretzels and the best you can get is that they were living under one roof for some time and that a song might be about Ashara. Totally not enough.

As for wanting, I'd very much want YG to be the real deal, so that at least one of poor Elia's children lives. Sadly, clues rather seem to be pointing to the contrary.

 

PS Some time ago, I wondered whom Brandon would have crowned, had he won. I wondered very much if he might have caused a similar scandal by crowning Ashara.

Got to get to work, but ill respond later as yours requires a lengthy response to hit on all brought up :) 

Though i will agree that Ashara and Eddard were both single at the time and good canidates. Edric clearly say's Jon is Wylla's kid, mentioning nothing of marriage. So all i can really see for sure, is that by this tale, Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla. Which Eddard partially backs up by confirming Wylla as Jon's mother. 

Caitlynn brings up Ashara based on whispers of the guards, but as Eddard is telling every one else Wylla. It stands to reason this is what he told Caitlynn too. To which Eddard claims happens after he was wed to Caitlynn. So House Dayne and Eddard are holding to the same story. Edric gets mad at the suggestion he is lying too, strongly implying Ashara is not Jon's mother, to Edrics knowledge.

Ashara having had a child already doesn't throw out her options of Marriage as Maegor even wed three wives of proven fertility. It happens. No reason to kill your self over.

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Just now, maudisdottir said:

Do you really believe this, or are you just playing devil's advocate for a theory that you're working through? Because it's implied that the dishonour was "Stark" which is why Stark is named, not Rhaegar. You can't make claims that "it's implied" when the opposite is true, there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Rhaegar had a thing with Ashara. Nothing. In five books.

I feel like a broken record.

Your ignoring then what Barristan is saying as i have pointed out above. 

Keep going, it happens. You either believe what you put out or you keep quiet, usually how it goes :)

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On 10/15/2017 at 9:22 AM, Dragonsbone said:

I understand my argument pretty good. But thank you for your warnings.

 

What you don't seem to understand is the difference between fictive characters and stories and real live events. If those two characters were real historical characters, that George describes in his book, then you would be probably right. The chances that they must have had a conversation are very high. But you can not add likelyhoods to written fictional lines and non existing events that only "happen" (If that is the correct term) in the authors head.

 

Order Of The Greenhand does this all the time in their N+A=J theory videos. But on another note, the bolded can really go both ways, its like, well you can't prove they talked based on assumptions and quotes that weren't included by the author. That can also be attached to "they never talked".

 

If I understand what you're saying correctly, if not,  I apologize ahead of time for the misunderstanding.

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3 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Your ignoring then what Barristan is saying as i have pointed out above. 

No, I quoted his exact words. Where did he mention Ashara and Rhaegar? Where did anyone mention them? You're talking in circles and I'm not the only one who has trouble seeing what your argument is, so maybe if you could just put it in point form, from the text, and not just your speculation/interpretation? Just tell me where Ashara and Rhaegar are connected, in the five books so far.

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7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Got to get to work, but ill respond later as yours requires a lengthy response to hit on all brought up :) 

By all means, take your time. 

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Though i will agree that Ashara and Eddard were both single at the time and good canidates. Edric clearly say's Jon is Wylla's kid, mentioning nothing of marriage. So all i can really see for sure, is that by this tale, Eddard broke Ashara's heart by fathering Jon on Wylla. Which Eddard partially backs up by confirming Wylla as Jon's mother. 

It's not illogical, as those two bits of information are told in one breath, but consider this: why the hell would the Daynes keep the woman who caused Ashara's suicide as a trusted servant for years? Were it my daughter, I'd kick the whore out as soon as Ned Stark showed his back, I certainly wouldn't let her nurse my family

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Caitlynn brings up Ashara based on whispers of the guards, but as Eddard is telling every one else Wylla.

Except, he is not. Aside from the Daynes, Robert is the only person with whom he mentions Wylla. There is a whisper around Winterfell that Jon's mother was commonborn, but no name is given.

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It stands to reason this is what he told Caitlynn too.

No, because Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely". 

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

To which Eddard claims happens after he was wed to Caitlynn. So House Dayne and Eddard are holding to the same story. Edric gets mad at the suggestion he is lying too, strongly implying Ashara is not Jon's mother, to Edrics knowledge.

Also, if the Daynes thought that Ned did wrong by Ashara, they wouldn't raise their heir is such high esteem of Lord Eddard, nor would they keep the mother of his bastard in their home, Dawn or not.

7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ashara having had a child already doesn't throw out her options of Marriage as Maegor even wed three wives of proven fertility. It happens. No reason to kill your self over.

Jon Arryn also wed a wife of proved fertility, and her own sister states that she came to his bed "soiled". If he didn't need Hoster's swords, he wouldn't have agreed to the match, and it was also very fortunate that Lysa's tumble with LF wasn't generally known. Whereas, the existence of Ashara's baby is apparently known, as Cersei throws the accusation of stealing the said baby into Ned's face.

I don't have the World Book; out of those three wives of Maegor's, which one had a bastard child? - Look rather at Delena Florent - married off to a household knight, far below her rank (and BTW, being married to someone like Maegor is not exactly a win).

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8 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 

Order Of The Greenhand does this all the time in their N+A=J theory videos. But on another note, the bolded can really go both ways, its like, well you can't prove they talked based on assumptions and quotes that weren't included by the author. That can also be attached to "they never talked".

 

If I understand what you're saying correctly, if not,  I apologize ahead of time for the misunderstanding.

Yes, you have understood pretty well what I have said. :D. We can not impossibly disprove that they have not talked to each other in Georges mind. What we can disprove, is that they have not talked to each other in the books. What does that that implicate: some people should stop acting as the books are a summary of real events. There is no curtain behind the act. It is bizarr when speaking about a fictional character to imply what he has done anything besides what is written, since they are just lines in a book and not real humans. Yes, it might be revealed by George that they may have talked, because he writes it so, or maybe he never writes it. In the last case, this scenario never has happened in the books. And to act like these fictional lines have a life behind the text, is nonsense. 

It is different though, when the author uses hints in his book. In this case he wants to foreshadow something that might happen (ergo written) later. This is a very old technique of writing. In that case you could say what might happen in the later text, regarding what he has written in that particular hint. In this case, you might discuss future or past events that are maybe going to be revealed in later texts. 

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