Jump to content

In support of N + A = J


Damsel in Distress

Recommended Posts

On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:35 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

^_^No no hahah nothing against you bro :) Just a general point we all do. So even as a point to all, dont get discouraged when pursuing your ideas :) Sometime you can feel like your arguing at a wall, other times people bring up good points as you do about the smugglers ship. Which may well be, along with the possibility that they're miss remembering. But there is still the option of what i present, and so we should look at all possibilities, but not discredit the fringe just cause there is an easy answer off hand. Thats what liars work off of  when telling their lies, that there is an easy off hand cover that makes sense in the moment ignoring context or situation. 

Yes i did present the option of Aeys raping Ashara for one point.

When excepting Lyanna is Jon's mom, it and questioning who Dany might be that Quiathe seems to be maybe hinting at. It leads to wonder who her parents might be. For her to be in hiding, it would have to be a Targ on one side at least. Same reason to hide Jon. So the only two options are Rhaegar and Aerys. Since there was already a rape situation in which no one was an actual eye witness too, given Maegor's secret passages. Left open the window that it may have been Aerys. 

Given the constant hints at Rhaegar through Danys chapter and the implied Dishonor of Harrenhal being Rhaegar, explains who it really is and makes sense given all the other clues. It was a process of elimination 

And yes those options about the boat are true, other than the obscure reason to have Jamie never actually make physical confirmation it was her, since she was cloaked and hooded, combined with the fact that Jamie and Viserys seem to possibly be remembering things differently. Points more and more fingers towards the realm of possibility. With this simply being when Ashara got out of K.L. and where she likely went, Dragonstone. As there is nothing to say that Ashara was at Starfall when Eddard arrived. Just that she later killed her self from Starfall. 

Since Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia who was also in K.L., at the same time Rhaegar was in K.L. at the same time Daenerys's conception is known to have taken place. Is alot of coincidence. If Martin spelled it out any more in the clues, itd be an orgy of evidence.

Ah, no, I wasn't worried or anything. Just wanted to make sure you understood I wasn't trying to dismiss you out of hand. I really enjoyed talking with you over there, but I realize I probably wasn't clear enough about why I brought that point up in the first place. 

I had never actually considered that it might be a smuggler's ship when reading, though I remembered Davos describing his black little boat and its black sail as he smuggled the food to Storm's End. I had the impression they were sailing with the royal fleet, so I presumed the black sails had the red dragon of their house painted on it, but, you know... how's the saying go? By night all (sails) are black. Lol. Especially when they're already black with a bit of red (trimmings/ornamentation). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2017 at 2:19 PM, Ygrain said:

Well, and why did she have sex with the man? Didn't she, you know, like him? Perhaps even more than liked?

Theres nothing to say she slept with the man who dishonored her. Though i think she did, i dont think the dishonor was rape. Yes, she liked the man who dishonored her, as she killed her self over his loss. So he didn't rape her as the dishonor. Getting her with child? No Ashara killed her self soon after the loss of her child, in 284, so said child was conceived in 283 at the earliest, not 281.

The point is not being a better jouster but crowning her as QoLab as a sign that he loved her.

Most people argue it's cause he was the better Jouster and thus more manly or what ever and made him a better candidate than all. 

Brandon is described as smoking hot, charming and self-confident. One doesn't need to be a Dornishwoman to fall for him, Barbrey certainly wasn't.

Rhaegar was wanted by alot of women, i think your down playing him. Even Cersei compares hers beautiful Jamie to a boy compared to the beauty of Rhaegar, whom she wanted bad.

Plus, remember what Barristan thinks about young girls and fire men, as compared to mud men? On what experience is he basing his assessment that young girls tend to fall for the bad guys?

But that's what your suggesting too, that Ashara fell for the bad boy Brandon Stark...

BTW, the dutiful Rhaegar doesn't sound like a fire man, either, despite the tons of ladies fawning over him.

I would disagree and say he is exactly that. Plays a harp and reads, is smart and sensitive, yet a warrior at needs, a prince and future king, sensible, and some one alot of people looked up too. I really think your down playing Rhaegar.

Which would be both totally out of character for him. He's not a rapist, he's not a type for casual sex, and he's not a type for premarital sex, either. And if he slipped, he would immediately do what Robb did: make right by the woman and marry her. Neither was promised at that time; Arthur Dayne's sister  and Lord of Winterfell's son would be an acceptable match.

No, if he wed Ashara then, it would be fine. Marrying Cat after and fathering Jon on Wylla doesnt make him look any better though. And why wouldn't Ned just tell every one, hey, i cant marry her, im already married. That makes no sense.

Yep, it doesn't add up. Which is why it is not true.

Exactly, none of it, not Brandon (which the books dont even suggest) or Eddard (who the books suggest, despite his shown character). Or why House Dayne would name a child after Eddard after he was responsible for their son and daughters death (or brother and sister, who ever is head of House). Some wheres down the narrative of Eddards story, it falls apart. 

BTW, Edric doesn't say that Eddard broke Ashara's heart by siring a bastard on a servant, it's more along the lines of "he loved her but married another". A commonborn mistress is never a competition for a lady, though the lady may be annoyed.

No, first he goes on to tell Arya that Jon is his milk brother and that Wylla was his mother. Which is what Eddard tells Robert, that Wylla is Jon's mother. Arya gets excited and makes a mental note, then the conversation turns to Arthur and Ashara, to which he says the Ashara and Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal, but then hesitates to go further when discussing why she killed her self, other than she was sad. 

 So basically, Ned holds back from out right saying, Eddard and Wylla had Jon, and that Ashara and him had fallen in love at Harrenhal, but that he had broke her heart by fathering Jon on Wylla.

You are aware that the latter bolded actually supports the former, right? 

And yes, but i mean it in the context of them being ignorant to fact, not making facts up. There is a difference. 

BTW, a prince makes for easier rhyming than Lord Paramount's son, that's awfully long, and killed in battle sounds way better than strangled to death by the order of a mad king. It makes for a wonderful tragedy worth a song, and unimportant details like his betrothal to another be damned. That's how Holywood singers work.

Oh, it well might be about Ashara's suicide, as a reminder for the reader before the reveal, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of the song is true.

No, and on their own, each of these clues can be broken down and disregarded with some pass off answer. Collectively though, they begin to paint a picture.

Except that the grudge (if it can be called that) which Barristan holds against Rhaegar is based on the political secrets that Rhaegar had, not on the fact that Rhaegar impregnated his crush, which destroyed her chances for a good marriage and eventually led to her suicide, so Rhaegar couldn't have been the guy, and neither could Eddard, for the same reason, Barristan has only respect for him.

It has nothing to do with wanting but with following the clues, or their absence, in the text. GRRM is pretty thorough in laying clues for future reveals, yet for Ashara and Rhaegar, one has to twist bits into pretzels and the best you can get is that they were living under one roof for some time and that a song might be about Ashara. Totally not enough.

No. One gets alot more than that, your just over simplifying. Im also not going into every thing as this is not my thread and was not my intention to prove my theory, but rather to simply show that Rhaegar and Ashara likely spoke. Which im pretty sure ive shown by now. 

As for wanting, I'd very much want YG to be the real deal, so that at least one of poor Elia's children lives. Sadly, clues rather seem to be pointing to the contrary.

 

PS Some time ago, I wondered whom Brandon would have crowned, had he won. I wondered very much if he might have caused a similar scandal by crowning Ashara.

Except that Brandon isn't mentioned to have shown her any interest, talked about her, talked to her other than to hook his brother up, or spent much time even around her for anything to really happen. 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight … if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty …

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

So no, its not really about the political stuff, this is just the set up that Rhaegar didn't trust Barristan as he trusted Ashara's brother Arthur.  To which he instantly jumps into his shame of having lost the Tourney. To which at the end he illustrates that his biggest failure isn't preventing the war or Rhaegar from taking Lyanna, but just that he didn't win and crown Ashara. Something he saw as a chance to show his feelings for her. Then after going straight into thoughts of being a failure for not crowing Ashara, he goes into thought's of Daenerys and Ashara's "Still born" child. Since he is the only one to say she was still born, i wonder where Barristan heard this from. Since he wasn't there. He then thinks about how she killed her self over the loss of the man who dishonored her then mentions again about if only he had won. Showing that he feels that if he won, he could have prevented Ashara's dishonor, her from turning to stark, and shown his feelings all in one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2017 at 3:09 PM, Ygrain said:

By all means, take your time. 

It's not illogical, as those two bits of information are told in one breath, but consider this: why the hell would the Daynes keep the woman who caused Ashara's suicide as a trusted servant for years? Were it my daughter, I'd kick the whore out as soon as Ned Stark showed his back, I certainly wouldn't let her nurse my family

Agreed, but that's what im suggesting, she wasn't Jon's mother, Lyanna was. Eddard showed up with a kid. They just told Edric this to cover the truth in case he ran his mouth as people do. Something Eddard backs up with his story. Im suggesting that Ashara had Daenerys, and that Eddard showed up with Jon. So despite killing Arthur, they know what's up, and further more, they need Eddards help, as he needs theirs. So they give him the use of Wylla and the lie, so that he'll help cover Ashara and Dany's tracks. 

 Remember i suggest that Viserys and Jamie are remembering correctly, and that the hooded woman Jamie saw, was actually Ashara. Following Rhaella to Dragonstone.

It's claimed that Eddard buried 5 dead north men at the Tower of Joy, including William Dustin. 

Dany claims it was Willem Darry and 4 loyal guards who broke into the nursery and took her and her brother from Dragonstone.

I propose that Eddard, sent Dustin and his men to get them out. That in the nursery, they didn't know that the child they were grabbing was Ashara's, and not Rhaella's who was still born. Cause you know, the Dustins horse that Eddard brought back, could have easily carried their bones. So explain that away.

Dany can't remember Darry properly cause at one time she is remembering Willem Dustin, then later she is remembering Illyrio or Varys in mummery, as Illyrio smells bad and so did Darry as she remembered. I propose that Varys and Illyrio put Dany and Viserys out upon learning where they were. Setting in motion their "years" of planning.

Except, he is not. Aside from the Daynes, Robert is the only person with whom he mentions Wylla. There is a whisper around Winterfell that Jon's mother was commonborn, but no name is given.

True. I double checked. So he didn't wanna tell any story as he didn't wanna lie to Cat worse than he was already. Freeing her to run rampant with ideas of Ashara. If any body looked at his lie though and everything, they would see the truth too and Eddard would have to answer all of it. 

No, because Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely". 

Exactly, Eddard loved his sister so fiercely, he even gave her a spot in the crypts. Hence, Jon is of his blood, but not his body. Jon is a Stark, but not Eddards. Why Jon looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna. To which some one says Jon's mother left nothing of her self in Jon. No she left it all in Jon. And why Dany looks like her mother too. Something we see quiet a bit in this story. The female line is strong.

Also, if the Daynes thought that Ned did wrong by Ashara, they wouldn't raise their heir is such high esteem of Lord Eddard, nor would they keep the mother of his bastard in their home, Dawn or not.

Exactly. Refer to above comment in previous response.

Jon Arryn also wed a wife of proved fertility, and her own sister states that she came to his bed "soiled". If he didn't need Hoster's swords, he wouldn't have agreed to the match, and it was also very fortunate that Lysa's tumble with LF wasn't generally known. Whereas, the existence of Ashara's baby is apparently known, as Cersei throws the accusation of stealing the said baby into Ned's face.

Yes, maybe it was bad for her or not in the end. Difference. You suggest she got pregnant at Harrenhal which would lead to a kid in 282AC. I suggest a slight at Harrenhal, that was fixed at K.L. at consummated there. Making Dany's conception before the sack, leading to a birth in 284AC that happened away from court. That most people would not be privy too. Her death following soon after and all accounts surrounding it clouded.

I don't have the World Book; out of those three wives of Maegor's, which one had a bastard child? - Look rather at Delena Florent - married off to a household knight, far below her rank (and BTW, being married to someone like Maegor is not exactly a win).

Rhaena Targaryen had two kids with Aegon before she wed Maegor. All three were of proven fertility. Something a lord in need of an heir would be eager to find. Something King Henry VIII also looked for after a time. It's not always a shame. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2017 at 2:53 PM, maudisdottir said:

No, I quoted his exact words. Where did he mention Ashara and Rhaegar? Where did anyone mention them? You're talking in circles and I'm not the only one who has trouble seeing what your argument is, so maybe if you could just put it in point form, from the text, and not just your speculation/interpretation? Just tell me where Ashara and Rhaegar are connected, in the five books so far.

You are kinda a broken record. Ive already shown this and your welcome to check my thread out if you'd like. Im dont eating this thread up though :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2017 at 10:15 PM, Wild Bill said:

I will not be persuaded due to my biases, but, your work is pretty comprehensive and impressive. :)

edit: deleted - off topic...

Hahah absolutely and i can understand if you've put in your own work into your ideas :) How was the lay out though? Im really curious if it helped with taking it all in or not. Thank you btw :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/18/2017 at 7:10 PM, TheSeason said:

Ah, no, I wasn't worried or anything. Just wanted to make sure you understood I wasn't trying to dismiss you out of hand. I really enjoyed talking with you over there, but I realize I probably wasn't clear enough about why I brought that point up in the first place. 

I had never actually considered that it might be a smuggler's ship when reading, though I remembered Davos describing his black little boat and its black sail as he smuggled the food to Storm's End. I had the impression they were sailing with the royal fleet, so I presumed the black sails had the red dragon of their house painted on it, but, you know... how's the saying go? By night all (sails) are black. Lol. Especially when they're already black with a bit of red (trimmings/ornamentation). 

I much enjoy talking too :) and yes that is definitely a logical situation too and possible. As i mention to Ygrain though, each of these on their own can be picked apart with sensible ideas to counter. It's when they're put all together that it begins to paint a picture. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/17/2017 at 7:17 AM, Ygrain said:

 

Most of the narrative beats to my idea that i threw at you, come mostly all from the first book too. Barristan's story just helped lock it in, with Jamie's account from AFFC that differed with Viserys AGOT helping to show Ashara's movements and where abouts. Pretty much everything though is in AGOT thrones. Including the idea of Rhaegar banging Lyanna and that it was their kid Eddard pops up with as Eddard is too honorable and his lie is told in AGOT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read your other thread, and you still didn't provide any evidence. You quote a lot of stuff then you spin your own interpretation on it; that's not evidence. Why does Jaime think it's Rhaella if it's really Ashara, and how is the average reader supposed to figure that out? The Dustin/Darry theory has been around for a while and again, no evidence.

You say I'm a broken record - show me something from the books that even hints at any of this, that isn't your wild speculation, and I'll stop asking. But you can't, because that's all it is - fan fiction. I've seen dozens of theories based on "I want this to be true so I'm going to make everything else fit, and if it doesn't then someone is misremembering or lying" and any time someone asks for evidence they get a bunch of waffle about "critical thinking" and "reading between the lines". There are enough lines already (five books' worth) without basing the story around lines that George didn't even write.

And FWIW, it was Brandon who asked Ashara to dance, and she agreed. We don't know if she would have said yes if Ned had asked, or if Ned even wanted to dance with her - all we are told is "(he was) too shy to leave his bench". How do we know the whole thing wasn't Brandon's excuse to chat up Ashara? He was betrothed, so it's not like he could approach her himself. Ned was the smokescreen, and I bet Ashara never even looked twice at him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I much enjoy talking too :) and yes that is definitely a logical situation too and possible. As i mention to Ygrain though, each of these on their own can be picked apart with sensible ideas to counter. It's when they're put all together that it begins to paint a picture. 

Oh, definitely. Individual evidence is much easier to dismiss than a preponderance of evidence, especially when personal biases come into play, and we all have them. I suppose for me, my personal bias comes in when evidence (individual or as a whole) reads too much between the lines and presupposes an author's intent for an argument, which brings credibility of evidence under intense scrutiny--a curious mixture of my background studying literature, history, and biological sciences, lol. Some people (not you!) don't really understand where the burden of proof actually lies in an argument, and expect critics to disprove it--or, rather, prove the negative, which simply cannot be done--but it's not always their fault. We used to teach children how to debate and propose and scrutinize their hypotheses at a young age, but now we've moved such curricula so far back in the educational process that some people either don't get it at all or have lost interest or have become set in their ways in how they open and carry on discussions, etc. We also don't teach kids as much objectivity as we should, so personal feelings can easily become mixed up in the process, and no one is as thick of skin as they initially believe they are (before feeling a bit of the heat! lol). Nor do we teach kids how to think critically, critique constructively, or break bad news (we teach professionals how to be the bearer of bad news in their capacity as civil servants--doctors, lawyers, politicians--although sometimes they prefer to avoid the inevitable backlash, law enforcement, etc., but we don't teach everyone, which we should; for instance, lots of people don't know how to do something as necessary as break up, simply because no one ever taught them how to break bad news! Some parents prefer to lie and buy a new goldfish in secret than tell their kid their fish died, some parents don't  know how to tell their kids no, or discipline them, because they prefer the positive feedback of being more a "friend" than a "parent," etc., and all that stems from this inability to "be the messenger" because no one taught us how) and, of course, how to accept and process bad news or criticism. There's a lot of friction we run up against when trying to have an open conversation, especially about more "passionate" topics (politics, religion, moral values, etc.), and a lot of times people try to avoid the backlash by dipping toes into the water to test the temperature before wading in or walking on eggshells.

Personally, I don't have anything against the idea that Dany isn't who she thinks she is. It could either add to or subtract from the thematic narrative (none of the dragons are who they think they are, for instance: Aegon/Young Griff, Jon Snow, and even Dany) depending upon how it's accomplished and why it's included. I've read lots of Lemongate, R+L=D, R+L=J and then R+L=D, R+L=J+D, Rhaella+Bonnifer Hasty=D "Storm"born, R+A=D, plus R+L=J+A or R+L=A and then J, R+A=Aegon, Elia+Arthur=Aegon, Illyrio+Serra=Aegon, R+Ashara=Aegon, even N/B+Ashara=Aegon and Aerys+L=J, Robert+L=J, R+Ashara=J, N+A=J, B+A=J, Ned+Lyanna=J, Brandon+Lyanna=J, Benjen+Lyanna=J, even Rickard+Lyanna=J, N+Wylla=J, N+FishD=J, pretty much the whole gamut of "These are not the babes you're looking for!" :idea:

So far, I haven't seen anyone propose RhaeRhae (Rhaella+Rhaegar=J/D/A), though, and why not? Those incestuous Targs! A pitiable woman like Rhaella needs the comfort of a real man, and Rhaegar was in desperate need of a purple-eyed sister-bride to get his incestuous groove on. :o Or, something. Lol. Then there's Quaithe=Ashara/Shiera Seastar Lemore=Ashara/Serra, etc., to add into the mix. And BlR+ShSstr=Mel, Aerys+JoL=C+J/T and also Aerys+JoL=C+J and then T (basically, Tywin has no trueborn children whatsoever), and even some strange chimeric AeT+JoL+LlewynMartell=T or AeT+JoL+TyL=T. There are even theories about the parentage of "Darkstar" GeDay, Allyria Dayne (N+A or B+A), Daario Naharis (Blackfyre either via Illyrio+Serra, or some other combo), and others of lesser importance to the narrative. I try to keep an open mind and scrutinize each theory on its own merits, even when it sounds silly or strange or wrong at first blush (like, when a theory is poorly summarized at introduction and it makes you cock an eyebrow, so you need a close reading of the evidence to make proper sense of the summary presented). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ned may indeed have an illegitimate child but it is not Jon. Jon is undoubtedly the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Young Griff is possibly the son of Illyrio through one of the female Blackfyre decendants. Varys is connected if not also a Blackyre decendent through the female line. The Mummer's dragon is FAegon/Young Griff. Septa Lamore is also potentially Ashara Dayne but the exact connection and or reason why she is there has yet to be shown. Ned Dayne is interesting on a seperate note.

I have read where some people think that Young Griff and Jon are twins, Griff born with eyes and hair of a Targ, thus he is where he is etc but Ned was never told about him as he was whisked away before arriving at the Tower of Joy. Jon was the spare etc that had black eyes and black hair at birth, therefore more concealable as someone other than a visually obvious Targayren. Aegon/Griff however looked like his dad, therefore more precautions involving physical concealment was necessary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I read your other thread, and you still didn't provide any evidence. You quote a lot of stuff then you spin your own interpretation on it; that's not evidence. Why does Jaime think it's Rhaella if it's really Ashara, and how is the average reader supposed to figure that out? The Dustin/Darry theory has been around for a while and again, no evidence.

You say I'm a broken record - show me something from the books that even hints at any of this, that isn't your wild speculation, and I'll stop asking. But you can't, because that's all it is - fan fiction. I've seen dozens of theories based on "I want this to be true so I'm going to make everything else fit, and if it doesn't then someone is misremembering or lying" and any time someone asks for evidence they get a bunch of waffle about "critical thinking" and "reading between the lines". There are enough lines already (five books' worth) without basing the story around lines that George didn't even write.

And FWIW, it was Brandon who asked Ashara to dance, and she agreed. We don't know if she would have said yes if Ned had asked, or if Ned even wanted to dance with her - all we are told is "(he was) too shy to leave his bench". How do we know the whole thing wasn't Brandon's excuse to chat up Ashara? He was betrothed, so it's not like he could approach her himself. Ned was the smokescreen, and I bet Ashara never even looked twice at him.

You ask for quotes and people give you quotes, then you go on to put down peoples ideas and rant and rave and whine, then go on to present something even dumber and backed up by even less...... Im done lol 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Hahah absolutely and i can understand if you've put in your own work into your ideas :) How was the lay out though? Im really curious if it helped with taking it all in or not. Thank you btw :)

My only concern would be length, which you somewhat handled with hidden text. I used to be the FAQ meister at a game forum (Paradox) and would make a few dummy posts (however many I wanted), then go back and edit in the appropriate text. Of course, each post should be consistent in the granularity and similarity of content - for example, all factors of type x supporting a theory in one post, type y being in another post; Miscellaneous background information in another post, and so on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I trust the opinion of the order of the green hand most of the time, including their theory on Jon's parents after viewing these shows.  They present their theory with clarity and appear to lack the bias present in many other channels.  Thank you for this link.  I always enjoy their shows. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You ask for quotes and people give you quotes, then you go on to put down peoples ideas and rant and rave and whine, then go on to present something even dumber and backed up by even less...... Im done lol 

OK well I take back what I said about you being good humoured. Show me which of your quotes even hint that Ashara had a child with Rhaegar, if that's what you're still claiming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

OK well I take back what I said about you being good humoured. Show me which of your quotes even hint that Ashara had a child with Rhaegar, if that's what you're still claiming.

Lol Well in all fairness i got a kick out of it hahah Sorry my responses were short though, Ygrain took a bit to respond to and had little time left. You said you felt like a broken record, to which i agreed, didn't throw it out there my self but didn't agree with it in a mean way. Just that this debate is a circle.

Exp. 

Quote

Show me which of your quotes even hint that Ashara had a child with Rhaegar, if that's what you're still claiming.

Show me the quote that say's Lyanna and Rhaegar had Jon? Or that Brandon and Ashara had Jon? (as you put forth) Or that Lyanna and Rhaegar had Dany? 

 I dismiss your theory off the same basis you dismiss mine, in all fairness. On top of not having quotes to back up the fact, situation, or set up. (Telling her Eddard wants to Dance with her doesn't count as it seems pretty clear that Eddard was the Quite Wolf that danced with Ashara. ) On top of the fact that i've yet to hear any reasonable account on how any of these other theories of parents plays into the larger story or end game.  At least alot of R+L people are on this 3 heads of the dragon train of Jon, Tyrion and Dany riding three dragons against the Others. So not only do they have a theory on mystery parentage, but an actual conclusion to the stories end. 

Im totally for debating facts and possible other out comes of these situations, like the boat with black sails brought up, or what Barristans story is actually trying to tell us. 

A debate predicated on providing concrete written words saying it happened, against a theory can't even provide what it ask of others, just makes for a circle. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

My only concern would be length, which you somewhat handled with hidden text. I used to be the FAQ meister at a game forum (Paradox) and would make a few dummy posts (however many I wanted), then go back and edit in the appropriate text. Of course, each post should be consistent in the granularity and similarity of content - for example, all factors of type x supporting a theory in one post, type y being in another post; Miscellaneous background information in another post, and so on.

Thank you for the input. I think i definitely bogged it down by presenting the other option of Aerys. Maybe as its own section after everything else as you suggest would be much better. Im having fits with tackling other theories too hahah such a pain to break them down in to smaller post when theyre part of a larger picture. Off topic though, haha Thank you again :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol Well in all fairness i got a kick out of it hahah Sorry my responses were short though, Ygrain took a bit to respond to and had little time left. You said you felt like a broken record, to which i agreed, didn't throw it out there my self but didn't agree with it in a mean way. Just that this debate is a circle.

Exp. 

Show me the quote that say's Lyanna and Rhaegar had Jon? Or that Brandon and Ashara had Jon? (as you put forth) Or that Lyanna and Rhaegar had Dany? 

 I dismiss your theory off the same basis you dismiss mine, in all fairness. On top of not having quotes to back up the fact, situation, or set up. (Telling her Eddard wants to Dance with her doesn't count as it seems pretty clear that Eddard was the Quite Wolf that danced with Ashara. ) On top of the fact that i've yet to hear any reasonable account on how any of these other theories of parents plays into the larger story or end game.  At least alot of R+L people are on this 3 heads of the dragon train of Jon, Tyrion and Dany riding three dragons against the Others. So not only do they have a theory on mystery parentage, but an actual conclusion to the stories end. 

Im totally for debating facts and possible other out comes of these situations, like the boat with black sails brought up, or what Barristans story is actually trying to tell us. 

A debate predicated on providing concrete written words saying it happened, against a theory can't even provide what it ask of others, just makes for a circle. 

 

I'm not claiming B+A=J, I'm firmly in the R+L=J camp because there are so many clues and outright acknowledgment by various characters, including POVs, that Rhaegar and Lyanna went off together in some fashion (kidnapped/eloped), which was the catalyst for her father's and brother's deaths and the resulting war. A bunch of important people witnessed the crowning of the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and there is a clear mystery surrounding her death which is emphasised strongly in the very first book. If you really need me to list all these for you, then maybe you need to go re-read the books or check the R+L=J threads.

Compare that to Ashara and Rhaegar? A song about a lady throwing herself off a tower because of her prince. Anything else? *Crickets*

You seem to think that I accept everything in the books on face value - which is clearly not true, and not how I believe George writes. If I did, why would I believe Ashara fell for Brandon and not Ned, when Edric and others say that N+A were in love? Because their characters are laid out for us, and Ashara falling for plain, dull Ned doesn't make sense to me. The ambiguity of Barristan's mention of "Stark" only confirmed for me what I'd suspected, that Brandon was cutting his brother's grass, or he set the whole thing up and if Ned did have a crush on Ashara, he soon realised he was never really in the running.

WARNING! FAN FICTION AHEAD: Handsome Brandon the Wild Wolf approached Ashara in his usual charming way. "See my brother over there - yes, the solemn looking one with the long, plain face, who looks like he doesn't want to leave his bench - anyway, he really wants to dance with you, but he's too shy to ask. I'd love to dance with you too, because you're the most beautiful girl in the room, and I'm certainly not too shy - but I'm betrothed, so... Ned, then?"

Ashara thinks "He's so kind to his brother." Poor Ned, he never stood a chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I'm not claiming B+A=J, I'm firmly in the R+L=J camp because there are so many clues and outright acknowledgment by various characters, including POVs, that Rhaegar and Lyanna went off together in some fashion (kidnapped/eloped), which was the catalyst for her father's and brother's deaths and the resulting war. A bunch of important people witnessed the crowning of the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and there is a clear mystery surrounding her death which is emphasised strongly in the very first book. If you really need me to list all these for you, then maybe you need to go re-read the books or check the R+L=J threads.

Compare that to Ashara and Rhaegar? A song about a lady throwing herself off a tower because of her prince. Anything else? *Crickets*

You seem to think that I accept everything in the books on face value - which is clearly not true, and not how I believe George writes. If I did, why would I believe Ashara fell for Brandon and not Ned, when Edric and others say that N+A were in love? Because their characters are laid out for us, and Ashara falling for plain, dull Ned doesn't make sense to me. The ambiguity of Barristan's mention of "Stark" only confirmed for me what I'd suspected, that Brandon was cutting his brother's grass, or he set the whole thing up and if Ned did have a crush on Ashara, he soon realised he was never really in the running.

WARNING! FAN FICTION AHEAD: Handsome Brandon the Wild Wolf approached Ashara in his usual charming way. "See my brother over there - yes, the solemn looking one with the long, plain face, who looks like he doesn't want to leave his bench - anyway, he really wants to dance with you, but he's too shy to ask. I'd love to dance with you too, because you're the most beautiful girl in the room, and I'm certainly not too shy - but I'm betrothed, so... Ned, then?"

Ashara thinks "He's so kind to his brother." Poor Ned, he never stood a chance.

So why are you bringing up Brandon and Ashara? As i didn't counter any R+L=J, the rest of that first paragraph ill just guess is open air talking. 

Nope, that's not the only bit, but nice try to dumb it down.

No, i cant figure out where your coming from now. 

Edit- So, R+L=J and Brandon and Ashara equal what??? Please dont say Allyria Dayne, cause she's such a late addition i seriously doubt George created this situation in book 1 and resolve it with such a nobody character who doesn't even grace the pages her self. Daenerys? The one born after Jon? and long after Brandon died?? Yea, im just lost on where some of these theories actually lead. Cause all of them seem to go no wheres. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I'd love to dance with you too, because you're the most beautiful girl in the room, and I'm certainly not too shy - but I'm betrothed, so... Ned, then?"

Then Ashara agrees on the condition that Brandon saves her a dance later that night away from prying eyes. She wants to tame the wild wolf, make him howl, but only for her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Then Ashara agrees on the condition that Brandon saves her a dance later that night away from prying eyes. She wants to tame the wild wolf, make him howl, but only for her.

Smh, see this is what i mean. You guys disregard something there is actually textual evidence for some fan fantasy lol Nothing about this is in the books. Once again, this produces who to what end? Throwing out random scenarios backed by no evidence and that produces no results for the end game of the book. Right. That's why Martin laid out so much about Ned hating his brother and being wronged by him. Yep. Makes total sense! Ned then married Cat to get back at dead Brandon! Makes perfect sense! Not. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...