In support of N + A = J

[Ralphis Baratheon]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ned then married Cat to get back at dead Brandon! Makes perfect sense! Not. 

Well they say the best revenge is living and living well. Poor plain faced Ned won in the end. Catelyn ended up loving Eddard almost as much as Robert did.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Well they say the best revenge is living and living well. Poor plain faced Ned won in the end. Catelyn ended up loving Eddard almost as much as Robert did.

Lol yes, ignoring everything else. There is a nice sense of Irony to it

[maudisdottir]

1 hour ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Then Ashara agrees on the condition that Brandon saves her a dance later that night away from prying eyes. She wants to tame the wild wolf, make him howl, but only for her.

In Brandon's tent.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's why Martin laid out so much about Ned hating his brother and being wronged by him. Yep. Makes total sense! Ned then married Cat to get back at dead Brandon! Makes perfect sense! Not. 

If Ned wasn't really in love with Ashara, he wouldn't hate his brother. He might not respect him for cheating on his betrothed, but I imagine Ned's used to all the girls falling for Brandon and ignoring him.

The reason I'm bringing up B+A is because I'm arguing against R+A (or N+A) with what I believe the clues in the books tell us.

[syrinx]

Lol at R+A, just lol

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The reason I'm bringing up B+A is because I'm arguing against R+A (or N+A) with what I believe the clues in the books tell us.

I have to agree. Barb tells us that Brandon Stark had no qualms about taking a highborn Lady's maidenhead when they were not even betrothed. We learn in the same book that Ashara turned to "Stark" instead of Barristan. Barristan knew Eddard Stark and seemed to respect him. Which is why I think he would have just referred to him as Lord Eddard or Lord Stark in his POV. Where as by referring to someone by only their last name is not only impersonal but is almost an insult. I feel like that's how he would refer to a less honorable wild cocksman like Brandon, who never in fact held the title of Lord as he died at the same time as his father. I also don't see Ned, who didn't even have the nerve to ask for a dance, sleeping with any women he was not married too, especially a highborn Lady like Ashara. Ned would probably see it as dishonoring her. So I think the child Ashara lost was Brandon's. 

The whole Rhaegar/Ashara and Arthur/Elia potential girl swapping scenario because the Dornish are kinky theme is interesting but I have a hard time buying into any of those theories with what we'v been giving so far. Could it have happened? Sure. Would it surprise me? A little.

[Ygrain]

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Theres nothing to say she slept with the man who dishonored her. Though i think she did, i dont think the dishonor was rape. Yes, she liked the man who dishonored her, as she killed her self over his loss. So he didn't rape her as the dishonor. Getting her with child? No Ashara killed her self soon after the loss of her child, in 284, so said child was conceived in 283 at the earliest, not 281.

You can argue that dishonour may relate to something else than just the obvious, but given that Ashara had a baby and was not married, she was dishonoured in that basic sense, as well. 

Whatever the dishonour at HH was, it wasn't rape because Barristan wouldn't consider the option of her grieving for the man.

The problem with Barristan's account is that we don't know what constitutes "soon after". I agree that it seems tad too late for a baby conceived at HH, but on the other hand, I'm not a man of sixty reminiscencing about events that happened over 15 years ago; perhaps a year's gap might seem "soon after" to me. 

BTW, Ashara's death is stated as 283, not 284 in the wiki, where did you get the date?

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Most people argue it's cause he was the better Jouster and thus more manly or what ever and made him a better candidate than all. 

There is nothing romantic about jousting skills on their own, it is the crowning that matters.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar was wanted by alot of women, i think your down playing him. Even Cersei compares hers beautiful Jamie to a boy compared to the beauty of Rhaegar, whom she wanted bad.

Perhaps a bit, but what is the crucial difference between Rhaegar and Brandon? We never, ever, hear about Rhaegar exploiting his attractivity, whereas Brandon "was never shy about what he wanted", plus that moronic talk about "bloody sword". Rhaegar had the looks but not the character of a womanizer. Dany complains that Barristan's description makes him sound "dour", and he is also described as "dutiful". Definitely not the characteristics that Barristan associates with the wrong guys young girls to fall for.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

But that's what your suggesting too, that Ashara fell for the bad boy Brandon Stark...

I am aware of that, but what other experience with young girl falling for the wrong man do we have in his PoV? The only girl ruined by something to do with men is Ashara. From all we know about Brandon, he is the fire man, Rhaegar only partly.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No, if he wed Ashara then, it would be fine. Marrying Cat after and fathering Jon on Wylla doesnt make him look any better though.

You're forgetting that through the Westerosi lens, fathering a bastard on a commonborn woman is considered normal, married or not, it is the highborn maidens that are supposed to be untouchable. So, impregnating Ashara would be a scandal (though mainly for her), whereas impregnating Wylla...  About as interesting as yetserday's porridge because everyone does it.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

And why wouldn't Ned just tell every one, hey, i cant marry her, im already married. That makes no sense.

Not to mention that keeping the marriage secret would totally ruin Ashara's reputation as a "fallen woman" if she got pregnant, and I don't see Ned letting such a thing happen.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No, first he goes on to tell Arya that Jon is his milk brother and that Wylla was his mother. Which is what Eddard tells Robert, that Wylla is Jon's mother. Arya gets excited and makes a mental note, then the conversation turns to Arthur and Ashara, to which he says the Ashara and Eddard fell in love at Harrenhal, but then hesitates to go further when discussing why she killed her self, other than she was sad. 

 So basically, Ned holds back from out right saying, Eddard and Wylla had Jon, and that Ashara and him had fallen in love at Harrenhal, but that he had broke her heart by fathering Jon on Wylla.

Er, that's still an unsupported, although logical conclusion, coloured by a present-day view. In Westeros, men fathering bastards on commonborn women is a commonplace, it is marrying another that shuts down all the chances, and it is the reason why young Edric gets all uncomfortable when talking to Catelyn's daughter - it would be very awkward to say, "your father broke my aunt's heart by marrying your mother".

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No, and on their own, each of these clues can be broken down and disregarded with some pass off answer. Collectively though, they begin to paint a picture.

I see what you mean but the problem is that I don't see that collective into which the clue might fall.

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No. One gets alot more than that, your just over simplifying. Im also not going into every thing as this is not my thread and was not my intention to prove my theory, but rather to simply show that Rhaegar and Ashara likely spoke. Which im pretty sure ive shown by now. 

Oh, I have never disputed that the two of them talked:

"Good morning, my Lord Prince."

"Good morning, Lady Ashara. You look splendid today."

"Thank you, my Lord. Would you like some porridge for breakfast?"

And the like.

Conversations definitely happened. But because they are never hinted at or shown on-page, they are inconsequential.

 

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:14 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Except that Brandon isn't mentioned to have shown her any interest, talked about her, talked to her other than to hook his brother up, or spent much time even around her for anything to really happen. 

But if you think about it, that's enough - he talked to her and had some sway over her; she could have refused. Plus, it is exactly one conversation more than we have for Ashara and Rhaegar

 

On 20. 10. 2017 at 0:34 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Agreed, but that's what im suggesting, she wasn't Jon's mother, Lyanna was. Eddard showed up with a kid. They just told Edric this to cover the truth in case he ran his mouth as people do. Something Eddard backs up with his story. Im suggesting that Ashara had Daenerys, and that Eddard showed up with Jon. So despite killing Arthur, they know what's up, and further

more, they need Eddards help, as he needs theirs. So they give him the use of Wylla and the lie, so that he'll help cover Ashara and Dany's tracks.  

 

You're forgetting the problem with logistics. Ned couldn't have shown up with a baby without Wylla, or else all of castle Starfall would have to participate on the coverup and never blow it. If Wylla had been at Starfall the whole time, people would know that she was not pregnant, or that her baby died or whatever. For the ruse to work, Wylla must have arrived with the baby. And the fact that the Daynes kept her there means that no-one in Starfall holds Ned responsible for impregnating Ashara, because it doesn't fit with the Daynes' willingness to keep his bastard's mother in their household. But since people around Westeros don't know about Wylla, the rumour that he may have been the father of Ashara's baby keeps circulating.

 

 

Quote

 

It's claimed that Eddard buried 5 dead north men at the Tower of Joy, including William Dustin. 

Dany claims it was Willem Darry and 4 loyal guards who broke into the nursery and took her and her brother from Dragonstone.

I propose that Eddard, sent Dustin and his men to get them out. That in the nursery, they didn't know that the child they were grabbing was Ashara's, and not Rhaella's who was still born. Cause you know, the Dustins horse that Eddard brought back, could have easily carried their bones. So explain that away.

 

Sorry but it is not "claimed", it is in Ned's own memories - building the cairns and only he and Howland Reed living to ride away. He also explicitely remembers Martyn Cassel as dead and burried in the south, so you have one man missing already for your scenario,
 

Quote

 

Dany can't remember Darry properly cause at one time she is remembering Willem Dustin, then later she is remembering Illyrio or Varys in mummery, as Illyrio smells bad and so did Darry as she remembered. I propose that Varys and Illyrio put Dany and Viserys out upon learning where they were. Setting in motion their "years" of planning.

 

And where are the other Northmen after "Darry" dies, were they just fed up with the task and returned home? Only, we never hear about them and Martyn Cassel is dead, anyway, so where the hell are they and why don't they give a shit about the task they were given? And how did young lord Dustin become "old bear" in such a short time?

Quote

 

True. I double checked. So he didn't wanna tell any story as he didn't wanna lie to Cat worse than he was already. Freeing her to run rampant with ideas of Ashara. If any body looked at his lie though and everything, they would see the truth too and Eddard would have to answer all of it. 

 

I agree, he didn't want to lie any more than he absolutely had to, and except Robert, there was no-one who could force him to provide any answer. By keeping silent and letting people draw their own conclusions, there are no details that they might start to question, like "who is this Wylla, there was never a serving maid or a campfollower of this name" and the like.

Quote

 

Exactly, Eddard loved his sister so fiercely, he even gave her a spot in the crypts. Hence, Jon is of his blood, but not his body. Jon is a Stark, but not Eddards. Why Jon looks like Arya, who looks like Lyanna. To which some one says Jon's mother left nothing of her self in Jon. No she left it all in Jon. And why Dany looks like her mother too. Something we see quiet a bit in this story. The female line is strong.

 

That's Tyrion's thought, which is pretty ironic, given his usually sharp mind.

Quote

 

Yes, maybe it was bad for her or not in the end. Difference. You suggest she got pregnant at Harrenhal which would lead to a kid in 282AC. I suggest a slight at Harrenhal, that was fixed at K.L. at consummated there. Making Dany's conception before the sack, leading to a birth in 284AC that happened away from court. That most people would not be privy too. Her death following soon after and all accounts surrounding it clouded.

 

Only, a later conception is not supported by Barristan's thoughts, either. Why would he think about the HH events so much if Ashara gave birth way too late to have anything to do with HH?

Quote

Rhaena Targaryen had two kids with Aegon before she wed Maegor. All three were of proven fertility. Something a lord in need of an heir would be eager to find. Something King Henry VIII also looked for after a time. It's not always a shame. 

I agree that  need makes people overlook things they would mind otherwise (see Jon Arryn) but the wiki states that Rhaena and Aegon were married, so her children weren't bastards.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

In Brandon's tent.

If Ned wasn't really in love with Ashara, he wouldn't hate his brother. He might not respect him for cheating on his betrothed, but I imagine Ned's used to all the girls falling for Brandon and ignoring him.

The reason I'm bringing up B+A is because I'm arguing against R+A (or N+A) with what I believe the clues in the books tell us.

Except you just went on to say that you believe R+L=J. So what does B+A equal? Allyria? Daenerys? 

@Ygrain Ashara's age used to be stated as 284Ac on there, but your right, neither is actually stated in the text. It's technically unknown when she died. Ill answer the rest later, that's alot hahha but either way, Ashara getting pregnant at the end of 281 wouldn't lead to a kid in 283.

Daenerys being the child of Eddard or Brandon and Ashara Dayne makes no sense given Eddard would have no reason to hide her. None, what's so ever. Robert would clap Eddard on the back for that one. The child wouldn't be a Targ and wouldn't be hunted. 

Daenerys is the only likely scenario with Ashara once you except that R+L=J. And the only likely father has to be a Targaryen. 

2 scenario's exist that could make this happen. Though i believe the likelier candidate to be Rhaegar given that Rhaegar was about prophecy, and his best friend Arthur was helping him with this. Making at least Arthur aware. Arthur's sister, who is lady in waiting to Elia Martell and also has extremely close association to Rhaegar through this too. Also you have house Dayne who has Dawn and may also be expecting a prophesied figure to take on the sword of the morning position. 

Daenerys thinks of Rhaegar more than any body, even seeing her self as Rhaegar. 

Daenerys also has dreams of lemon trees which are associated to Dorne. Of which Starfall is a part of and would have Lemon Trees. 

Barristan also associates Daenerys with Ashara Dayne. Ashara killed her self for the man who dishonored her, plus the song about a lady jumping from a tower for her dead prince. Rhaegar the only prince. Dany sees a vision in which Rhaegar seems to look up to her when speaking during Aegon's birth. Ashara Dayne is lady in waiting to Elia and was likely there. This is also when Rhaegar learns Elia can't have more kids. 

There is a very strong likely hood that Ashara Dayne was planned to be the surrogate mother from the start. That it was only the events of Harrenhal that complicated things by meeting Lyanna and putting child in her. Which was Jon, that Eddard got at the Tower of Joy. 

There is absolutely NOTHING in Daenerys's chapters to suggest Eddard or Brandon. Nothing. Yet Rhaegar and Ashara do come up. There are alot of clues that show this to be what happened. Once again, ignore them, pick them apart individually but together it shows the Ashara and Rhaegar are the parents of Daenerys. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

BTW, Ashara's death is stated as 283, not 284 in the wiki, where did you get the date?

Not only is Ashara's death not stated, but Daenerys's date of birth isn't stated either. To be technical. If the sack of K.L. happened in March, then Daenerys could be born in 283Ac. Given that the only events to transpire are the Battle of the Bells (Jan?) then a wedding (Feb?) then they rode to war at the Trident, a very short journey from River Run. Making Jon born in the spring and Dany born in the Winter. Since after all, the date for the Sack of K.L. isn't stated either. Making everything i just said very possible. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Except you just went on to say that you believe R+L=J. So what does B+A equal? Allyria? Daenerys? 

What about:

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

Why doesn't it work? Save for the absence of any plot twists?

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is absolutely NOTHING in Daenerys's chapters to suggest Eddard or Brandon. Nothing. Yet Rhaegar and Ashara do come up.

Ashara? In Dany's chapters? Where, which one?

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You can argue that dishonour may relate to something else than just the obvious, but given that Ashara had a baby and was not married, she was dishonoured in that basic sense, as well. 

Whatever the dishonour at HH was, it wasn't rape because Barristan wouldn't consider the option of her grieving for the man.

The problem with Barristan's account is that we don't know what constitutes "soon after". I agree that it seems tad too late for a baby conceived at HH, but on the other hand, I'm not a man of sixty reminiscencing about events that happened over 15 years ago; perhaps a year's gap might seem "soon after" to me. 

BTW, Ashara's death is stated as 283, not 284 in the wiki, where did you get the date?

So that being said, about dates. 

True statement, but if Ashara died in 283Ac after birthing her child. This child wouldn't have been conceived in 281. It would have been conceived in late 282 or early 283Ac and since Ashara lived long enough to have been reported to wait for Eddard and that she killed her self after learning of her brothers death, would seem to put both causes for her death, near her death. 

Since Rhaegar was in K.L. around the time Daenerys was conceived and Ashara Dayne, lady in waiting to Elia Martell, was likely there too. 

Plus the differing accounts between Jamie and Viserys give us when she left. 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

There is nothing romantic about jousting skills on their own, it is the crowning that matters.

Exactly, which leaves only Barristan and our man Rhaegar.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps a bit, but what is the crucial difference between Rhaegar and Brandon? We never, ever, hear about Rhaegar exploiting his attractivity, whereas Brandon "was never shy about what he wanted", plus that moronic talk about "bloody sword". Rhaegar had the looks but not the character of a womanizer. Dany complains that Barristan's description makes him sound "dour", and he is also described as "dutiful". Definitely not the characteristics that Barristan associates with the wrong guys young girls to fall for.

Rhaegar taking advantage of his looks is irrelevant of others wanting him as Cersei did.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting that through the Westerosi lens, fathering a bastard on a commonborn woman is considered normal, married or not, it is the highborn maidens that are supposed to be untouchable. So, impregnating Ashara would be a scandal (though mainly for her), whereas impregnating Wylla...  About as interesting as yetserday's porridge because everyone does it.

True, but by Dornish customs, to which Ashara was. Her being a paramour of Rhaegar and getting pregnant with his child would be no dishonor at all. 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Er, that's still an unsupported, although logical conclusion, coloured by a present-day view. In Westeros, men fathering bastards on commonborn women is a commonplace, it is marrying another that shuts down all the chances, and it is the reason why young Edric gets all uncomfortable when talking to Catelyn's daughter - it would be very awkward to say, "your father broke my aunt's heart by marrying your mother"

Possibly, but as he leads off with, Wylla is Jons mother. To which Arya gets excited knowing who Eddard fathered Jon on, but then turns around and gets mad when he suggest Eddard and Ashara may have loved each other once. Alluding that the "broken heart" was the first thing he threw out, that Eddard fathered Jon on Wylla.

If Ashara is the paramour of Rhaegar of simply the surrogate mother, by Dornish customs, she is free to do either with no shame on her honor, including, falling in love with Eddard.

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I see what you mean but the problem is that I don't see that collective into which the clue might fall.

That i can understand. 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But if you think about it, that's enough - he talked to her and had some sway over her; she could have refused. Plus, it is exactly one conversation more than we have for Ashara and Rhaegar

Lol well that is definitely true on that haha, i just dont see Eddard harboring his brother ill will. Just a pressure he feels at having to take over Brandon's responsibilities. And actually as i write this and think about what you have told me.

Wylla did come from Starfall, and is part of the lie and cover up of Jon Snow. So Eddard never told Ashara Dayne the truth!!!  So she did think the man she loved had fathered a son on another woman. 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting the problem with logistics. Ned couldn't have shown up with a baby without Wylla, or else all of castle Starfall would have to participate on the coverup and never blow it. If Wylla had been at Starfall the whole time, people would know that she was not pregnant, or that her baby died or whatever. For the ruse to work, Wylla must have arrived with the baby. And the fact that the Daynes kept her there means that no-one in Starfall holds Ned responsible for impregnating Ashara, because it doesn't fit with the Daynes' willingness to keep his bastard's mother in their household. But since people around Westeros don't know about Wylla, the rumour that he may have been the father of Ashara's baby keeps circulating.

And this is why i do like discussing with you  

• So Ashara is Paramour and or planned surrogate mother for Rhaegar. 
• Rhaegar dishonors her and his wife by choosing some new woman out of no wheres that he had fallen for. So Ashara "turned" at first to Lyanna Stark, the woman who just displaced her, then to Eddard Stark, with whom she had shared a dance and knew of his good kind heart. They shared a tent, a kiss, and may hap some words. 
• Rhaegar then goes and kidnaps Lyanna starting the war and impregnating her with Jon, born early in 283 around the Sack of K.L.
• Rhaegar (or rapey Aerys) gets Ashara with child shortly before the sack when all 3 are in K.L. 
• Eddard shows up to the Tower of Joy and leaves with Wylla, Jon, and a promise, not to mention having to have married Caitlynn to secure the victory of war with a Tully alliance.
• Eddard arrives in Starfall in late 283ac and claims he fathered Jon on Wylla after already having wed Caitlynn.
• Ashara, not at Starfall, is birthing Daenerys on Dragonstone.
• House Dayne, and Eddard, aware of Stannis's forces fixing to sail to Dragonstone and siege it, send aid to rescue Ashara Dayne.
• Ser William Dustin and the other 4 loyal Northmen, sail to Dragonstone and rescue Ashara.
• Ashara Dayne dies on Dragonstone before or after the men arrive, possibly even while birthing Dany. Possibly after the Stark men tell he of Jon and Wylla, and of her brother Arthur, and also, Rhaegar, the man who dishonored her. Or not, none of that is needed, and can be speculated at by Barristan or Cersei. While maybe in truth she died birthing.
• The 5 Stark men do not leave Dragonstone with out a fight, and only one survives. And as far as Eddard and his story is concerned, they did die in the South.
• Ser William Dustin does not sail to Braavos, but to Dorne. While in Dorne though he is murdered and Illyrio come in with a Varys mummer disguise. 

Or something along those line, i cant be expected to know the full narrative haha

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Only, a later conception is not supported by Barristan's thoughts, either. Why would he think about the HH events so much if Ashara gave birth way too late to have anything to do with HH?

Because that was his "one moment" and apparently he didn't listen to Eminem and 8 mile. 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I agree that  need makes people overlook things they would mind otherwise (see Jon Arryn) but the wiki states that Rhaena and Aegon were married, so her children weren't bastards.

Never said her children were bastard, just that she was of proven fertility and that sometimes it was a sought after thing. 

[AlaskanSandman]

32 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

What about:

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

Why doesn't it work? Save for the absence of any plot twists?

Ashara? In Dany's chapters? Where, which one?

On its own it could work, does it serve the plot. No. 

Not directly spoken in her chapters, but in Barristans directly of Daenerys. Barristan who is also with her. Close enough associations, and the Barristan one is a direct association. 

Still doesn't change the fact that their is nothing in her chapters, or any one associated with her arch to suggest Brandon or Eddard is her father.

[AlaskanSandman]

@Ygrain the point of dates we were talking about would fit with the other events told too. Brandon died a few days before he was to wed cat, and that Jon Arryn calling his banners after Brandon and his father was killed would work with the war starting around March of 282, with the Siege of Storms end (which also last a year) a couple months after the war started and ending a couple months after the Sack of K.L.

[AlaskanSandman]

There is the real possibility that Dany is who she thinks she is, and that Eddard coming from the Tower with Jon and Wylla and the lie in place would account for most everything. Eddard simply didn't tell Ashara the truth. 

The only problem i have with this then, is why mention Ashara Dayne looking like Daenerys? And it still wouldn't explain what the "dishonor' of Harrenhal was. So that being the case, im still inclined to believe Ashara is indeed the mother of Dany.

[AlaskanSandman]

Ive gotta say, you've guy's have talked me deeper into Ashara Dayne as Daenery's mother as ever. Just helped me work out some of the time points and details. Though not all are panned out. I think most are. 

Her one night with Eddard may have even been something she regretted after. 

Ned and her falling for each other or spending a night together at Harrenhal. Ok.

Eddard getting Jon, Wylla, and the "Lie" at the Tower of Joy and being forced to lie to Ashara. OK

This answers almosttttt everything. 

Except Barristan's claim that Dany and Ashara have the same eye's and that some one dishonored her at Harrenhal that drove her into the arms of Eddard Stark. Even if only for a night.

Yet Barristan claims she killed her self over the loss of the man that drove her into Eddard arms. Once again circling back to Rhaegar, as Barristan feels he could have prevented it all by winning and crowning Ashara Dayne the Queen of Love and Beauty. 

The dishonor couldn't be Brandon dishonoring her and that being what drove her into Eddard's arms as Barristan still would have gutted Brandon Stark. And likely could have. The only person who could dishonor her on any level that Barristan couldn't cut the man down for, would be Aerys and Rhaegar.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar taking advantage of his looks is irrelevant of others wanting him as Cersei did.

Not at all! It makes all the difference.

Let's take a look at Barristan's assessment of Quentyn:

Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

The blued parts fit what have learned about Rhaegar so far, the red ones don't; laughter even contradicts what we know about Rhaegar's doom and gloom attitude. Barristan then muses that Drink had the looks that would attract Dany - tall and lean and comely -  but not just looks: a swordsman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. While the grace was certainly Rhaegar's as well, we never hear about any exploits in sweettalking girls, not to mention sexual exploits that Barristan is sure Drink has had. Also, compare this with the personality and looks of Daario, about whom Barristan thinks that Dany's love for him is a poison, and that Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Drink and Daario come off as the same type of man - handsome, witty, smooth talker, womanizer. Basically the bad boy type for whom young girls fall for so often. Very much Brandon, from what little we know about him, but Rhaegar, not so much. 

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

True, but by Dornish customs, to which Ashara was. Her being a paramour of Rhaegar and getting pregnant with his child would be no dishonor at all. 

It's stated somewhere in the SSM that while the Dornishwomen enjoyed more sexual freedom, highborn girls were still expected not to sleep around. 

Plus, the point about dishonour is from Barristan's PoV, who, on one hand, is not Dornish, and on the other, knew enough about the difference in customs not to think badly about Lewyn Martell having a paramour. So, the dishonour would be either solely non-Dornish concept, or it would be one for both the Dornish as well as the rest of Westeros. Which having a child out of wedlock would.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Possibly, but as he leads off with, Wylla is Jons mother. To which Arya gets excited knowing who Eddard fathered Jon on, but then turns around and gets mad when he suggest Eddard and Ashara may have loved each other once. Alluding that the "broken heart" was the first thing he threw out, that Eddard fathered Jon on Wylla.

No. Look at the whole conversation: the thing that makes the topic so uncomfortable for Ned is the same that upsets Arya - that her father loved one woman but married another. Arya hadn't known that, so young Ned basically makes a blunder.

“My father was Ser Arthur’s elder brother. Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.”
“Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled.
Ned looked wary. Maybe he was afraid that she was going to throw something at him. “Your lord father never spoke of her?” he said. “The Lady Ashara Dayne, of Starfall?”
“No. Did he know her?”
“Before Robert was king. She met your father and his brothers at Harrenhal, during the year of the false spring.”
“Oh.” Arya did not know what else to say. “Why did she jump in the sea, though?”
“Her heart was broken.”
Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid. She couldn’t say that to Ned, though, not about his own aunt. “Did someone break it?”
He hesitated. “Perhaps it’s not my place...”
“Tell me.”
He looked at her uncomfortably. “My aunt Allyria says Lady Ashara and your father fell in love at Harrenhal -”
“That’s not so. He loved my lady mother.”
“I’m sure he did, my lady, but -”
“She was the only one he loved.”

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If Ashara is the paramour of Rhaegar of simply the surrogate mother, by Dornish customs, she is free to do either with no shame on her honor, including, falling in love with Eddard.

That is unsupported by the text, though.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol well that is definitely true on that haha, i just dont see Eddard harboring his brother ill will. Just a pressure he feels at having to take over Brandon's responsibilities. And actually as i write this and think about what you have told me.

"Everything was always for Brandon" seems a bit more than taking over the duties...

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Wylla did come from Starfall, and is part of the lie and cover up of Jon Snow. So Eddard never told Ashara Dayne the truth!!!  So she did think the man she loved had fathered a son on another woman. 

IF she loved him in the first place. The mud man...

It is possible that Wylla did come from Starfall but she must have been absent for such an amount of time that would make the claim of being Jon's mother believable (it would be perfectly possible if she was a servant at ToJ).

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And this is why i do like discussing with you  

You do? Well, I am certainly complimented :-)

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

•  
• Ser William Dustin and the other 4 loyal Northmen, sail to Dragonstone and rescue Ashara.

Not 4, only 3. Martyn Cassel is positively dead and buried at ToJ. With "the rest", as the quote goes:

“I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather.”
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

So, sorry, it seems that there were no Northmen available for what you propose.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

• Ashara Dayne dies on Dragonstone before or after the men arrive, possibly even while birthing Dany. Possibly after the Stark men tell he of Jon and Wylla, and of her brother Arthur, and also, Rhaegar, the man who dishonored her. Or not, none of that is needed, and can be speculated at by Barristan or Cersei. While maybe in truth she died birthing.

I certainly do not expect you to get every detail right but if Ashara was at DS, it would be very difficult to fake a suicide at Starfall, I'm afraid.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

•  

Never said her children were bastard, just that she was of proven fertility and that sometimes it was a sought after thing. 

But that's how this debate started - I claimed that by impregnating Ashara - whoever may have done the deed - her chances for a good marriage were ruined.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The only problem i have with this then, is why mention Ashara Dayne looking like Daenerys? And it still wouldn't explain what the "dishonor' of Harrenhal was. So that being the case, im still inclined to believe Ashara is indeed the mother of Dany.

I think that it explains the affection Barristan holds for his queen. She is his chance for redemption, she is Rhaegar come again, and she looks like his old crush. There would be very little that he wouldn't do for her, I think. Might be potentially important in the story.

[AlaskanSandman]

25 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not at all! It makes all the difference.

Let's take a look at Barristan's assessment of Quentyn:

Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

The blued parts fit what have learned about Rhaegar so far, the red ones don't; laughter even contradicts what we know about Rhaegar's doom and gloom attitude. Barristan then muses that Drink had the looks that would attract Dany - tall and lean and comely -  but not just looks: a swordsman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. While the grace was certainly Rhaegar's as well, we never hear about any exploits in sweettalking girls, not to mention sexual exploits that Barristan is sure Drink has had. Also, compare this with the personality and looks of Daario, about whom Barristan thinks that Dany's love for him is a poison, and that Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Drink and Daario come off as the same type of man - handsome, witty, smooth talker, womanizer. Basically the bad boy type for whom young girls fall for so often. Very much Brandon, from what little we know about him, but Rhaegar, not so much.

Barristans thoughts and assessments are irrelevant to reality im afraid lol the thing about Rhaegar proves it. Rhaegar is your "fire" not "mud" whether he tries to or not. Women just think he is absolutely stunning. Specially considering even Caitlynn had to admit just how good looking Jamie was even covered in his own shit. Then Cersei say's even her Jamie paled to Rhaegar. So your parrallels in Barristans thoughts are indeed irrelevant. Barristan is a putz who knows nothing about women and what they want.

 

29 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It's stated somewhere in the SSM that while the Dornishwomen enjoyed more sexual freedom, highborn girls were still expected not to sleep around. 

Plus, the point about dishonour is from Barristan's PoV, who, on one hand, is not Dornish, and on the other, knew enough about the difference in customs not to think badly about Lewyn Martell having a paramour. So, the dishonour would be either solely non-Dornish concept, or it would be one for both the Dornish as well as the rest of Westeros. Which having a child out of wedlock would.

And yet it's stated in the books that Paramours are pretty common. Also

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

"So do others," suggested Gerris Drinkwater. "Naharis, for one. The queen's …"

"… paramour," Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen's honor. "That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?" He did not wait for a reply. "Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that."

"No," said Quentyn, red-faced, "but …"

 

So Barristan does indeed think being a paramour is dishonorable. So Rhaegar would indeed have dishonored her just on those grounds in his eyes. Even though, as above shows, it is common in Dorne, but not Westeros, to which Quentyn becomes red faced over. 

Gerris presents Quentyn as Daenerys's paramour, yet you think simple Ashara Dayne can't be Rhaegar's? I think may haps Dornish customs seems to think this is quite acceptable by their standard.

36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

No. Look at the whole conversation: the thing that makes the topic so uncomfortable for Ned is the same that upsets Arya - that her father loved one woman but married another. Arya hadn't known that, so young Ned basically makes a blunder.

You do that, but dont actually include the whole conversation haha the whole conversation begins with him telling Arya that Jon's mother is Wylla. Some thing Arya gets excited over. Over finally knowing who her father knocked up to produce Jon..... Then mentions Ashara killing her self over a broken heart, thennnn turns around and gets upset when Edric suggest that prior to this Eddard and Ashara had fallen in love at Harrenhal. Which is funny since she's peachy with knowing who her dad knocked up, just not him loving any one else. MMmmmmmhmmmmm. Mean while, Edric's implication is that it was Eddard's knocking up of Wylla that broke Ashara's heart.

40 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That is unsupported by the text, though

No, its supported in the quote above about paramours, and in Jon Con's thoughts about Elia being unable to birth any more children. Combined with Dany's vision of Rhaegar stating that their must be one more. Setting up the need of a 3rd child. So not hard to imagine he had one in place beforrrre meeting Lyanna.

41 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

"Everything was always for Brandon" seems a bit more than taking over the duties...

Might seem like that, but nothing implies anything further. IMO

42 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

IF she loved him in the first place. The mud man...

It is possible that Wylla did come from Starfall but she must have been absent for such an amount of time that would make the claim of being Jon's mother believable (it would be perfectly possible if she was a servant at ToJ).

Dont back peddle on me now hahah you suggested it. 

 

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You do? Well, I am certainly complimented :-)

I do

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not 4, only 3. Martyn Cassel is positively dead and buried at ToJ. With "the rest", as the quote goes:

“I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather.”
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

So, sorry, it seems that there were no Northmen available for what you propose

I didn't miss the first time you posted it hahaha I already covered that as Eddard is lying, or as far as he's concerned, they did die. 

Either way, this is hardly needed for Dany to be the child of Ashara Dayne.

45 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I certainly do not expect you to get every detail right but if Ashara was at DS, it would be very difficult to fake a suicide at Starfall, I'm afraid.

You mean a suicide in which her body was never found???? How is that hard to fake? No one saw her again after the war. No one can disprove that she didn't throw her self from the cliff.

Im not even sure she is dead any ways. Quiathe.

46 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But that's how this debate started - I claimed that by impregnating Ashara - whoever may have done the deed - her chances for a good marriage were ruined

I get that, but again, i never stated that Rhaella's children were bastards. Just that she was of proven fertility and that Ashara having children prior to marriage, does not ruin her chances as their are examples or people seeking such women.

 

48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think that it explains the affection Barristan holds for his queen. She is his chance for redemption, she is Rhaegar come again, and she looks like his old crush. There would be very little that he wouldn't do for her, I think. Might be potentially important in the story.

Yea except that if you can actually except the fact that the dishonor had nothing to do with Eddard and Ashara and everything to do with the moment (The only thing mentioned by Barristan to have happened even) Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. Ignore it all you want, but he gave you the answer with in the same page. The dishonor and the thing preventable are all the only thing mentioned by Barristan to have happened, the crowing of Lyanna. To which his biggest failure is that he failed and didn't crown Ashara instead. Everything is there in a cute lil bow.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Barristans thoughts and assessments are irrelevant to reality im afraid lol the thing about Rhaegar proves it. Rhaegar is your "fire" not "mud" whether he tries to or not. Women just think he is absolutely stunning. Specially considering even Caitlynn had to admit just how good looking Jamie was even covered in his own shit. Then Cersei say's even her Jamie paled to Rhaegar. So your parrallels in Barristans thoughts are indeed irrelevant. Barristan is a putz who knows nothing about women and what they want.

You still don't understand. There is one hell of a difference between a stunning guy who doesn't take advantage of his charm, and one who does. In the times when girls were not supposed to have sex outside marriage, that difference would ruin their lives. 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet it's stated in the books that Paramours are pretty common. Also

So Barristan does indeed think being a paramour is dishonorable. So Rhaegar would indeed have dishonored her just on those grounds in his eyes. Even though, as above shows, it is common in Dorne, but not Westeros, to which Quentyn becomes red faced over. 

IIRC, the only mentioned paramour is Ellaria Sand. To my best memory, we don't have an example of a high-born maiden becoming someone's paramour, or do we?

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Gerris presents Quentyn as Daenerys's paramour, yet you think simple Ashara Dayne can't be Rhaegar's? I think may haps Dornish customs seems to think this is quite acceptable by their standard.

Double standards - what is alright for a man may not be considered alright for a woman, and especially not for a maiden.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You do that, but dont actually include the whole conversation haha the whole conversation begins with him telling Arya that Jon's mother is Wylla. Some thing Arya gets excited over. Over finally knowing who her father knocked up to produce Jon..... Then mentions Ashara killing her self over a broken heart, thennnn turns around and gets upset when Edric suggest that prior to this Eddard and Ashara had fallen in love at Harrenhal. Which is funny since she's peachy with knowing who her dad knocked up, just not him loving any one else. MMmmmmmhmmmmm. Mean while, Edric's implication is that it was Eddard's knocking up of Wylla that broke Ashara's heart.

Young Ned seems to have similar feelings - perfectly alright talking about an extramarital affair, but a broken heart, d'oh.

I still think it's about the marriage to Cat and not knocking up Wylla, exactly because Ned talks about Wylla so easily. But, agree to disagree.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, its supported in the quote above about paramours, and in Jon Con's thoughts about Elia being unable to birth any more children. Combined with Dany's vision of Rhaegar stating that their must be one more. Setting up the need of a 3rd child. So not hard to imagine he had one in place beforrrre meeting Lyanna.

Agreed on looking for a surrogate mother, but since it was only Aegon's birth that made Elia unable to bear any more children, and that was post-HH, there is nothing to suggest that Rhaegar had been looking for one prior.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I didn't miss the first time you posted it hahaha I already covered that as Eddard is lying, or as far as he's concerned, they did die. 

Man, if it was in direct speech to someone, I might concede a point, but he is hardly lying to himself in his own thoughts, and I don't think there was a multiple case of mistaken identity going on there.

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

You mean a suicide in which her body was never found???? How is that hard to fake? No one saw her again after the war. No one can disprove that she didn't throw her self from the cliff.

It is hard to fake a jump from the Palestone Sword tower if Ashara hadn't been home for months. If Daynes telegraphed this as their version of events while every single servant at Starfall could easily babble to any passing stranger that Ashara hadn't even been there, the rumours would eventually reach wrong ears. So, Ashara must have been at Starfall at the time of her presumed suicide.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im not even sure she is dead any ways. Quiathe.

It is certainly an option, but I sure hope that for a change, someone presumed dead is actually dead.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I get that, but again, i never stated that Rhaella's children were bastards. Just that she was of proven fertility and that Ashara having children prior to marriage, does not ruin her chances as their are examples or people seeking such women.

You're really forgetting about the cultural bias. A widow of proven fertility is a boon. A deflowered, impregnated maiden is soiled goods and forced to marry low under her status unless the "stain on honour" is kept secret.

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yea except that if you can actually except the fact that the dishonor had nothing to do with Eddard and Ashara and everything to do with the moment (The only thing mentioned by Barristan to have happened even) Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. Ignore it all you want, but he gave you the answer with in the same page. The dishonor and the thing preventable are all the only thing mentioned by Barristan to have happened, the crowing of Lyanna. To which his biggest failure is that he failed and didn't crown Ashara instead. Everything is there in a cute lil bow.

Cannot help but I don't see it that way, especially when a much more simple explanation is at hands.