Damsel in Distress

In support of N + A = J

118 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, The Transporter said:

Jon could never become king by his deeds.  His awful deeds got him killed.  He just betrayed the kingdom and the Night's Watch over a sister.  There is no way Jon should become king.  And I don't think he will. 

True. Actually he became what he is by plot armor. But still, it is better for him to remain bastard. 

Edited by purple-eyes

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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ned is thinking about his children.  He doesn't include Jon even in his private thoughts

I agree with you. I don't think Ned is Jon's father. 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree with you. I don't think Ned is Jon's father. 

It's still worth it to look at the alternatives. I'm not convinced everything has been figured out about the parentage.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

People forget that Barristan, who knew both Dany and Ashera, has said that Dany looked so much like Ashera that she could be her daughter.

Easy to forget what's not true. Barristan never says that Dany looks like Ashara or could be her daughter. He thinks of her eyes as "Ashara's eyes" but that's it. The only thing about Dany that puts Barristan in mind of Ashara is that she has purple eyes.

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3 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Easy to forget what's not true. Barristan never says that Dany looks like Ashara or could be her daughter. He thinks of her eyes as "Ashara's eyes" but that's it. The only thing about Dany that puts Barristan in mind of Ashara is that she has purple eyes.

This is what he says:
 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions … though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

 

 

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Just now, LynnS said:

This is what he says:
 

 

Which does not say that she looks like Ashara.

Remember as far as Barristan knows, Ashara had a stillborn child who would be within a year of Dany's age. If he thinks Dany looks like that baby would have, it's a safe bet he thinks the father is a Targaryen, because there's never been any mistaking Dany's looks.

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12 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Which does not say that she looks like Ashara.

Remember as far as Barristan knows, Ashara had a stillborn child who would be within a year of Dany's age. If he thinks Dany looks like that baby would have, it's a safe bet he thinks the father is a Targaryen, because there's never been any mistaking Dany's looks.

I'm not going to dismiss it that easily.  She looks like Ashara as far as Barristan is concerned. He only dismisses the possibility because he heard that Ashara's child was stillborn.  Then there is Cersei who accuses Ned of stealing Ashara's girl child and causing Ashara to throw herself from a cliff.   There are far too many holes in Dany's backstory and Viserys' account of their lives together to leave the possibility that Dany is Ashara's missing girl child off the table.

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They have the same eyes, that's all. He doesn't say "Dany looks so much like Ashara that she could be her daughter". He says Dany has the same "haunting purple eyes", and that "when the Queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter". Which implies that when Dany's not looking at him (with her haunting purple eyes) there's very little similarity, or not enough to remark on.

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I dislike these two because of their arrogant attitude, they are exactly what they accuse the R+L crowd to be, but I will try to leave that aside and just consider the idea that N+A could be true.

I cannot find the reasoning sound because I cannot see what GRRM would have accomplished in making Ned an utter despicable man. He had another choice, he could be the one going to the Wall instead of Benjen, and leave his son to grow  at Starfall with his mother. Instead he decides that he will become a bigamist, and not only deprive his true born son of his position and give Winterfell to his bastards, but make him grow up with the shame of being a bastard to then accept to send him to live and die badly at the Wall.

What an utter piece of shit.

The only thing all this would accomplish is to connect Jon with Dawn, give him a chance to become the Sword of the morning, a very nice idea, that could have been accomplished by having Arthur+Lyanna or Brandon+Ashara and still have Ned be somewhat recognizable as a character.

I would think much less of GRRM as a writer if he came up with this kind of bullshit.

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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

The books have overwhelming evidence of Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I wont repeat all of it right now, nor will I talk about the show since this is the book section. But even without the show, I'm not convinced. There isn't enough evidence. Ashara's suicide would be strange if her son were alive and well.

Which evidence? "Promise me, Ned" and blue rose at the Wall? That ia all I can remember

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18 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

The Order of the Greenhand is one of my favorite programs on ASOIAF.  They released an episode yesterday that I consider as one of their best.  They present the theory that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  I have always agreed that Jon is not the son of Rhaegar but I believed Lyanna was where Jon came out of.  The father being Brandon or Mance.  After watching this video, I am no longer convinced that Jon is the son of Lyanna, but rather Ashara and Ned.

 

This theory also presents an interesting parallel to the story of Gillie, Mance Rayder Junior, Craster Junior, Jon Snow, and young Griffin.  The story of Jon and Ned are similar in some ways.  Ned sends a royal baby away to safety with the mother of his own child in order to protect that child.  Jon sends away the baby boy of the king-beyond-the-wall to protect that child.  You could say that both the child of Rhaegar and Mance have king's blood.  Griffin is the equivalent of Mance Rayder junior.  Craster junior is the current day equal of baby Jon.  The irony is that the boys sent away to safety may play lesser roles in the story than the "lesser" boys who stayed behind.  In Jon's case, he went with Ned to the north.  I can see Ashara going along with this because she is loyal to the Targaryens.  It also saved her honor because Ned was never going to marry her anyway.  She had to disappear for many reasons.  Gillie is the current day equivalent of Ashara in the sense that they agreed to care for the baby of another woman in order to save that life.  Both women made sacrifices.

Never mind the fact that their math on Little Finger is way off some how, and i dont know how they managed that.

At the turn of 283 Peter was 14 and turned 15 in 283, so in 298 when Cat see's Peter, it is likely early in the year before Peter's birthday. Making Peter 29, just shy of 30. Just like Cat said. 

Sometimes people can make a nice argument based on incorrect facts. Happens. Everything else in their theory requires Gulltown, Summerhal, Ashford, and such to happen in 283 even though the books repeatedly tell us these events happen in 282. It falls apart fast, like, real fast.

R+L=J? Reaching? How? Rhaegar was accused of raping Lyanna that whole time. Even if it wasn't love, the assumption Jon is Rhaegar's is not a far reach at all. 

Further, like many on this thread. They begin their video by insulting any one who disagree's with them and are condescending and rude to their followers. Poor way to make a debate.

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6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Easy to forget what's not true. Barristan never says that Dany looks like Ashara or could be her daughter. He thinks of her eyes as "Ashara's eyes" but that's it. The only thing about Dany that puts Barristan in mind of Ashara is that she has purple eyes.

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …
But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

A lil more than that but kind of i guess. He say's right out that he feels he is looking at Ashara's daughter. He unlike Cersei though, is under the impression that her daughter was dead. Cersei never mentions the sex of the baby that Eddard took from Ashara.

Further, Eddard never denies taking Ashara's child, he simply goes on to warn Cersei to hide her children as well, or Robert will kill them too. 

I wont bog this thread with my thoughts, i have a thread in my signature with more than enough info. The only Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys though, IMO :)

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22 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

Which evidence? "Promise me, Ned" and blue rose at the Wall? That ia all I can remember

Then why don't you visit the current R+L=J thread? A summary of evidence is usually listed in the first post.

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

People forget that Barristan, who knew both Dany and Ashera, has said that Dany looked so much like Ashera that she could be her daughter.

I haven't forgotten. I just don't think it necessarily means anything.

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea that Dany might not be who she thinks she is, as it would parallel well with Aegon's plot.

 

7 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Jon should be a bastard who became king by his deeds, not a hidden prince with best claim to throne. 

2

He can still be a bastard if R+L=J. There is no reason for us to believe that Jon's parents were married. Moreover, a big point of TOotGH's theories is that Jon is the legitimate Stark while all his siblings are the true bastards. While I agree that is just their personal preference and not tethered to the theory, it isn't tethered to the R+L theory either. If anything, it's even less likely they were married because Rhaegar was already married and Lyanna was betrothed (which itself is a proto-marriage in this world).

 

7 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

It was Brandon who bagged her.

Well, we know that he has done it before with Barbrey Ryswell. As I said, I fully expect all these N+A smokescreen rumours are leading to a bit of a twist.

One tiny detail I've never been able to get passed is the question of tents. Harwin says to Arya about N+A, "...maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more." in ASOS. However, earlier in Bran's chapter, Meera tells him the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is still the most complete version of what happened. While she obviously would not have included details of the Maid with the Purple Eyes getting dishonoured in her story to the nine-year-old, she states that "The quiet wolf [Ned] offered him [The crannogman, Howland] a place in his tent."

Now, we can read this in several ways: maybe Howland slept in Ned's tent while he went off to Ashara's, or maybe even Ashara went to the tent and found only Howland there, even! Nonetheless, the most obvious explanation is that Ned and Howland were both sharing a tent during the tourney and that was how they became good friends. Meanwhile, "a Stark" - who the world presumes was Ned because he was the young, unattached lad who danced with Ashara - went to the lady in question's tent and possibly had some nookie with her.

That Selmy is still bitter about losing the tourney and losing Ashara to "a Stark". The fact that he was perfectly fine with Ned during their interactions strongly indicates that no such bitterness is held against Ned. Had it been him who won Ashara only to dishonour her, he would have expected him to be colder.

So, yep, it's all circumstantial but I agree that Brandon Stark was probably the one whodunnit. And, if it produced a baby, it may have been a girl - not a boy - and may have been stillborn, or maybe Allyria Dayne, or maybe Daenerys.

Edited by Faera

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We can agree that one of Jon parents must be a Stark, so:

- Ned and Ashara

As TOOTGH said. It all makes sense. It doesn't have enough evidence to suport whole theory, but is most likely to be true. Jon would become the SOTM and weild Dawn. Jon looks like Ned. Great theory. I suport it

- Lyanna and Rhaegar

It could be true but it's a story we've heard million times. I don't believe GRRM would want to do as same as many before him. But I guess Jon would become THE king and THE hero and save the day. Makes sense, Jon looks like his uncle and Arya looks like her aunt. Cliche, but could be true

- Brandon/Ned/Benjen and Lyanna :blink:

If N+A=J and R+L=J aren't true, Ned wouldn't have to lie if Jon wasn't born as a product of incest of two of Stark siblings. Maybe he was ashamed. Maybe that's why Benjen went to the Wall and why he and Ned don't speak when Benjen comes to Winterfell. But Starks aren't Lannisters or Targaryens. I don't believe this, but it could be true

- Rickard and Lyanna :blink::blink:

Again, Ned would do anything to keep honor of his House. But not likely to be true

- Lyanna and Aerys

If Aerys raped Lyanna (his son's love) and she gave birth to a Targaeryan bastard, Robert would've killed him. I see a reason to lie. Could be true, but very unlikely

- Rickard and Rhaella

This is more likely than A+L=J. Rickard and Rhaella maybe fell in love and had a child. Robert would've killed a Targaryen bastard. There's a reason to lie. But then Dany wouldn't be daughter of Rhaella. Could be, but not likely

- Brandon and Rhaella

Not true, but Robert would've killed Jon - I see a reason to lie

- Ned and The Fisherman's Daughter or other irrelevant girl

Ned loved her and didn't want to talk about her with Cat. Could be true, but The Fisherman's Daughter was either Ashara or maybe Lyanna or i don't know

- Ned and Wylla

If he and Wylla met before Starfall, it could be true. But very unlikely. Wylla just was Jon's wet nurse

- a Stark and someone no one thought about

It's probaly the truth

- Brandon and Ashara

Why would Ned lie? Brandon and Ashara probably never met after Harenhall. Not true

- Lyanna and Howland

Bring your child to the Neck and lie if you want, if you don't than don't. Just let Ned and Cat be happy. Not true

- Lyanna and Robert

Ned wouldn't lie to his friend. Robert has enough bastards. One more is nothing. Raise him as Jon Snow in Winterfell as Robert bastard and let Ned and Cat be happy with their children. Not true

- Lyanna and Arthur

Just tell everybody Jon's bastard of your sister. Jon becomes SOTM and everybody happy. Not true

- Brandon/Benjen and an irrelevant girl

Just tell that he's your brother's bastard son and be happy. Not true

- Rickard and an irrelevant girl

Say he's your bastard brother and be happy. Not true

 

I probably didn't reconsider everything, so feel free to correct me and add more

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4 minutes ago, Faera said:

I haven't forgotten. I just don't think it necessarily means anything.

Fair enough, you have your own mind.  A great deal of emphasis has been placed on looks, especially with Robert's bastards. It's a curious thing that Martin uses portraiture only on rare occassions.  So the reader has to rely on other characters for descriptions of appearance. Robert for example also has a memory of Lyanna and complains that the sculptor didn't do her justice.  Ned is bemused that Renly should ask if Margary looks like Lyanna.  Ned also tells us that Renly looks like a spitting image of Robert when he was young.  Littlefinger has made off with the Targaryen tapestries with the only known portraits of Targ ancestors. 

So I think Barristan's testimony has some weight when it comes to Dany's appearance.

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27 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

- Brandon and Ashara

Why would Ned lie? Brandon and Ashara probably never met after Harenhall. Not true

Lie about what ? Jons parents ? Because that would create an inheritage crisis in the north and could very well create a problem with the Tullys in Robert's rebellion. The Blackfish even left his family over whatever happened. There are signs and indications that Jon is the true Stark heir and not Rob and this only works as a son of Brandon.

We will only know when Jon searches for "what is left for him" in the crypts.

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54 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

It could be true but it's a story we've heard million times. I don't believe GRRM would want to do as same as many before him. But I guess Jon would become THE king and THE hero and save the day. Makes sense, Jon looks like his uncle and Arya looks like her aunt. Cliche, but could be true

 

Like many people, you are running with the theory that Jon must be legitimate and that is not necessarily the case. Even if he was, being Rhaegar's son doesn't automatically qualify him to be a hero, either - Jon does all of that on his own. Or a king, especially if Aegon is the genuine article.

 

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So I think Barristan's testimony has some weight when it comes to Dany's appearance.

Perhaps, but I think I'd need more hints as to a connection between Daenerys and Ashara first before I pick up on that spool. I like it as an idea. I just need to know how such a set-up could work, first. It also brings us no close to knowing who did-done-did it to make Daenerys. I know people have said Rhaegar but there really is no evidence for that at all aside from Ashara being Elia's lady-in-waiting, of which she must have had many.

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Posted (edited)

Ok. Here we go again. Sometimes I have a feeling that this topic is older than the internet. I guess we have run out of theories due to the lack of new material. Anyway, here are my two cents, and I won't go into evidence, since there are like 100 Threads alone in this forum regarding that, in both directions. So I will only use logic.

1. Some claim that  R+L=J is too obvious, therefore it won't be the answer:  

GRRM begann working in ASOIAF in 1991. This is 26 years ago. Since he introduced Jon and the mistery about his parents, he had no Idea how big this work would turn out to be. He had no idea that we will literally take every sentence and analyse it to death, like we do now. And as he pointed out by himself: He had no Idea how the internet is gonna change the discussion. Like he said, before the internet, just a few people usually got the point of a book. But this information could not spread over the world like today. Now, you just have to come up with an idea, and it is available for everyone just in time. R+L=J is not that obvious if you read the book by yourself and have no access to the fanbase. The hidden clues are not that obvious. They seem to be obvious now, because we had time to analyse it for 20 years and put it on the internet. Everything seems obvious once you work out every idea that comes to your mind, put it online and let the discussion take place for 20 years. 

Secondly, when he created Jon, one of, if not the main character, he had not yet created this whole world that we now know. He had to come up imidiatly with his identity. He did not made him a bastard and said to himself, "eeeeh...I have to figure out later who his mother/parents are. Let just make him a bastard first". Which brings me to my main point: 

2. His identity must have a deep meaning for the story:

Him making the true heir to the Throne, is a complete Gamechanger. A bastard from Winterfell has a bigger claim to the Throne than Robbert Baratheon, Stanis and even Daenerys, was completely shoking, if you have not been spoiled like I pointed out in my Point one. Plus, it makes the secret important. It is not just a small secret that will be somehow be discovered, but it is THE secret of the book series. It makes sense of the rebellion, other than it was just because Rhaegar could not get his pants closed, it makes sense why Ned still kept it a secret until death, and why GRRM won't spoil it until the near end of the story.

3. What is the point of him being Asharas child: 

You would get an answer who his mother is. A Dayne. That's basically is. Wow, big change. Besides that he may wield Dawn, there is no other consequence. And I don't even know, whether he would be the official heir for Dawn. Just being relative to the Daynes, does not make you the owner of Dawn. So GRRM would have to put something out of his ass, to deal with this problem. And even if he has thought about this in 1991 until 1996 when GoT came out (which seems uterly far fetched), what consequences would that have, compared to him being the true born king who has to save the realm? The only reason to make him a bastard, is to reveal that he is way more important than the readers think he is. And if you think that this seems to obvious, read Point 1 again. In Book one, everyone thought that Ned is the main character. Until book three, everyone thought Robb is. Jon was not the only main character when you read the first two or three books. 

And of course I won't go into the show, since this is a book discussion. 

Edited by Dragonsbone

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