Damsel in Distress

In support of N + A = J

118 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, Faera said:

I agree that the biggest spanner in the works for N+A=J is that it flies in the face of Ned's character. Either way, Ned would have had to impregnate an eligible noblewoman and abandon her, or he married her to save her honour... but promptly adandoned her to commit bigamy, which appears to be the path TOoTGH are going down. Either one doesn't square.

Even worse - he impregnated her, married her secretly while letting her bear the brunt of public shaming when her pregnancy started to show, then dishonoured Catelyn by making their marriage invalid, then stole Ashara's baby and drove her to suicide - and that all without sparing the poor woman a single thought. And on top of that, he keeps bragging that unlike Robert, he keeps his vows and has kept his promises to Lyanna and what not, while conveniently ignoring his shameful breaking of his marriage vow to Ashara...

Nah, not happening.

1 hour ago, Faera said:

While in my head I have always reasoned that Rhaegar probably did marry Lyanna, using some sort of loophole that he didn't truly follow the Faith of the Seven and therefore didn't consider himself truly married to Elia. Or heck, it is suggested kings can just put aside their wives so why not crown princes. I certainly don't think polygamy is the answer because is causes a whole host of issues. Much more likely he got a divorce or set Elia aside... though even that wasn't going to go down well with the Martells or the rest of Dorne.

Would he even need a loophole, though? The Faith sure as hell didn't allow incest, yet Rhaegar himself, just like a whole lot of his ancestors, were born of one. So, if one exception could be granted just because someone's name was Targaryen, why not another?

Plus, I think that polygamy being controversial doesn't necessarily rule it out because a controversial solution is still better than none. Let's look at the outcome of both scenarios:

  • Lyanna as a mistress:

- Lyanna dishonoured in everyone's eyes; Starks are alienated

- Jon a bastard

- Jon's legitimisation by a royal decree doesn't change anything about Lyanna's status

  • Lyanna as a second wife

- her status accepted by at least some; Starks support the validity of the marriage out of necessity because it saves them from dishonour and opens a chance for the Stark blood on the throne in later generations

- Jon's legitimacy accepted by at least some

- Jon is born a prince, which might be important for Rhaegar's interpretation of the prophecy

At first sight, the second scenario appears to be the one that would rile the Martells more but it's actually not because the pontential succession crisis threatening the succession of Elia's children arises in both; Lannisters and Baratheons are bound to be pissed in both, too, so what does Rhaegar actually have to lose? He is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, but in the second scenario, there are at least some advantages as far as Lyanna and the prophecy are concerned. 

A lot would also depend on Elia's stance on the whole thing. The HotU vision seems to indicate that Rhaegar confided to her about the prophecy and his interpretation of his role in it. We have an example of a queen on board with the prophecy and willing to go into quite some lengths for it, in Selyse. Did she wave bye-bye to the throne that she most likely never wanted, did she agree to an Aegon the Conqueror arrangement, did she agree to let Rhaegar pursue his love interest in exchange for being allowed to follow hers? Too many options, and too many unknowns so far.

 

 

1 hour ago, Faera said:

As for TPtWP, as far as well know right now Rhaegar thought his son Aegon was going to be the Prince and that he needed two siblings to be his heads of the dragon. He already had a Rhaenys and now he needed a Visenya (or "Visenys") with Lyanna. So, it might not have mattered whether they were bastard or not, just that they *fit* the prophecy. Bastards can still be dragons, too. The Blackfyres proved that! :)

Only, the Blackfyres were legitimized. Orys Baratheon definitely didn't count as a fourth dragon head, either, and we have Jon point out, right at the beginning of AGOT, that a Snow is not a Stark and is not entitled to a direwolf.

- Now, the prophecy itself would most likely be interested in genetics, not legalities, but people interpreting it tend to be confined by the social constructs they have been brought up to take for granted. Besides, Rhaegar had been wrong before, so he may have been wrong again: Aegon wasn't PTWP, and the PTWP didn't need to be legitimate, but Rhaegar might have thought he did. Wouldn't it be very ironic - and perhaps very GRRMish - to fuck up so magnificently for something that was completely unncessary?

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On 10/8/2017 at 4:49 AM, IMNHAAO said:

I dislike these two because of their arrogant attitude, they are exactly what they accuse the R+L crowd to be, but I will try to leave that aside and just consider the idea that N+A could be true.

I cannot find the reasoning sound because I cannot see what GRRM would have accomplished in making Ned an utter despicable man. He had another choice, he could be the one going to the Wall instead of Benjen, and leave his son to grow  at Starfall with his mother. Instead he decides that he will become a bigamist, and not only deprive his true born son of his position and give Winterfell to his bastards, but make him grow up with the shame of being a bastard to then accept to send him to live and die badly at the Wall.

What an utter piece of shit.

The only thing all this would accomplish is to connect Jon with Dawn, give him a chance to become the Sword of the morning, a very nice idea, that could have been accomplished by having Arthur+Lyanna or Brandon+Ashara and still have Ned be somewhat recognizable as a character.

I would think much less of GRRM as a writer if he came up with this kind of bullshit.

But he is not a piece of shit if he let his nephew and rightful king take the black? Not a piece of shit for ever telling him what the NW actually had become? 

The boy goes there seeking an honorable future, thinks all brothers were searching the same fate. Turns out his brothers are thieves and rapists.

On 10/8/2017 at 7:34 AM, Dragonsbone said:

Ok. Here we go again. Sometimes I have a feeling that this topic is older than the internet. I guess we have run out of theories due to the lack of new material. Anyway, here are my two cents, and I won't go into evidence, since there are like 100 Threads alone in this forum regarding that, in both directions. So I will only use logic.

1. Some claim that  R+L=J is too obvious, therefore it won't be the answer:  

GRRM begann working in ASOIAF in 1991. This is 26 years ago. Since he introduced Jon and the mistery about his parents, he had no Idea how big this work would turn out to be. He had no idea that we will literally take every sentence and analyse it to death, like we do now. And as he pointed out by himself: He had no Idea how the internet is gonna change the discussion. Like he said, before the internet, just a few people usually got the point of a book. But this information could not spread over the world like today. Now, you just have to come up with an idea, and it is available for everyone just in time. R+L=J is not that obvious if you read the book by yourself and have no access to the fanbase. The hidden clues are not that obvious. They seem to be obvious now, because we had time to analyse it for 20 years and put it on the internet. Everything seems obvious once you work out every idea that comes to your mind, put it online and let the discussion take place for 20 years. 

Secondly, when he created Jon, one of, if not the main character, he had not yet created this whole world that we now know. He had to come up imidiatly with his identity. He did not made him a bastard and said to himself, "eeeeh...I have to figure out later who his mother/parents are. Let just make him a bastard first". Which brings me to my main point: 

2. His identity must have a deep meaning for the story:

Him making the true heir to the Throne, is a complete Gamechanger. A bastard from Winterfell has a bigger claim to the Throne than Robbert Baratheon, Stanis and even Daenerys, was completely shoking, if you have not been spoiled like I pointed out in my Point one. Plus, it makes the secret important. It is not just a small secret that will be somehow be discovered, but it is THE secret of the book series. It makes sense of the rebellion, other than it was just because Rhaegar could not get his pants closed, it makes sense why Ned still kept it a secret until death, and why GRRM won't spoil it until the near end of the story.

3. What is the point of him being Asharas child: 

You would get an answer who his mother is. A Dayne. That's basically is. Wow, big change. Besides that he may wield Dawn, there is no other consequence. And I don't even know, whether he would be the official heir for Dawn. Just being relative to the Daynes, does not make you the owner of Dawn. So GRRM would have to put something out of his ass, to deal with this problem. And even if he has thought about this in 1991 until 1996 when GoT came out (which seems uterly far fetched), what consequences would that have, compared to him being the true born king who has to save the realm? The only reason to make him a bastard, is to reveal that he is way more important than the readers think he is. And if you think that this seems to obvious, read Point 1 again. In Book one, everyone thought that Ned is the main character. Until book three, everyone thought Robb is. Jon was not the only main character when you read the first two or three books. 

And of course I won't go into the show, since this is a book discussion. 

I did not visit any forums or any other community for this series until about a month ago. I read the series in 2003 and re-read for the release of  AFFC and again for the release of ADWD. I did a re-read again after the last season ended and a google search for a mention of marriage annulments brought me here. 

The ideas I had were Rhaegar and Lyanna. But I thought that if this is the case it is both too obvious, I mean we are told he kidnapped and raped her to death and we hear about Ned's honor so often that he could not sire a bastard. But also the symbolism around it would have been way to weak when he is litterally throwing parallels and themes around all the time. 

The other thought I had was Arthur Dayne + Lyanna, but I have not seen it mentionned here at all. I thought there was more symbolism and it was more subtle + more entertaining. 

After reading ADWD I was convinced neither Danny nor Aegon was who they thought they were. Granted, I had just read the First Law where some wizard keeps a bunch of bastards in different families, saying it is the bastard of the king. When all the legit heirs died, he had a few possible successors to choose from. He chose the easiest to manipulate. This is the only thing that made sense in having Vyserys on the throne. 

All in all, if R + L = J (Lol I <3 your lingo / abbr. here) then it takes a lot out of the story. Seeing the dip in quality in the last 2 books, especially ADWD... the final product would get a much lower rating then the first 3 books. Sadly reminiscent of a Dark Tower. 

 

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On 08/10/2017 at 11:17 PM, LynnS said:

Evidence is the available body of facts or 'information' to support a proposition. There is as much evidence to support RAD as there is to support RLJ.  Probably more for RAD because it makes more sense if you look at the text concerning Rhaegar's character according to Jorah and Barristan.  Rhaegar's relationship may have been as complicated as Renly's relationship with Margery and Loras; but I find it highly unlikely that Rhaegar would have kidnapped Lyanna for love or as a means for starting a war.

Sorry, what? Where is the evidence for Rhaegar and Ashara even talking to one another, let alone having a child together?

There is a fair amount of evidence for R+L because a whole bunch of characters acknowledge it (Ned, Robert, Barristan, Cersei etc). Can you point to anything in the books that would even hint at something between Rhaegar and Ashara?

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13 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Sorry, what? Where is the evidence for Rhaegar and Ashara even talking to one another, let alone having a child together?

There is a fair amount of evidence for R+L because a whole bunch of characters acknowledge it (Ned, Robert, Barristan, Cersei etc). Can you point to anything in the books that would even hint at something between Rhaegar and Ashara?

Well, there are two instances, both in the fifth book, where Rhaegar and Ashara are mentioned in the same paragraph. Hawt!

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36 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, there are two instances, both in the fifth book, where Rhaegar and Ashara are mentioned in the same paragraph. Hawt!

Rhaegar and Lyanna have 6 paragraphs.

Ned and Ashara have 5.

 

It is basically confirmed that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and at the same time the son of Ned and Ashara. Haha !

 

And now for the real parents TM:

Spoiler

Ned and Lyanna have 13 parapgraphs. Jon is the son of Ned and Lyanna. It is known.

 

Edited by SirArthur

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23 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna have 6 paragraphs.

Ned and Ashara have 5.

 

It is basically confirmed that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and at the same time the son of Ned and Ashara. Haha !

 

And now for the real parents TM:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ned and Lyanna have 13 parapgraphs. Jon is the son of Ned and Lyanna. It is known.

 

I know you were jesting, but your jests are weak all the same, sir.

First, Ashara and Rhaegar appearing semi-accidentally in two paragraphs is the only connection between them. In one of them, Barry thinks that Rhaegar's wife wasn't as pretty as the girl Barry had the hots for. In another, Barry muses how grand it would have been, had he been able to unhorse Rhaegar and give the wreath to Ashara. The connection between Rhaegar and Lyanna, on the other hand, is spelled in twelve-foot high letters from the early chapters of Book 1. "Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now". Rhaegar crowned Lyanna queen of love and beauty. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Ned found Lyanna in the tower christened by Rhaegar, guarded by Rhaegar's friends. Rhaegar has Lyanna now. What a sane person can't deny that there is a story of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Which simply can't be said of Rhaegar and Ashara.

Your count is off, by the way, possibly for the fact that you forgot "The World of Ice and Fire".

And I wasn't discussing every single imaginable possibility, just pointing out the silliness of the notion of Rhaegar and Ashara. It's simply not there.

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46 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

I know you were jesting, but your jests are weak all the same, sir.

Maybe I have no text reference but there is also nothing that suggests they haven't talked. Maybe being at the tourney in Harrenhal is not enough but a lady-in-waiting to Rhaegars wife is certainly enough to at least acknowledge them talking with each other.

And on top of that Ser Arthur Dayne is Rhaegars best buddy. 

It is like Stannis and Littlefinger. They are both part of the small council but there is no text evidence (I can think of) suggesting they ever talked to each other. And that idea is just bizarre.

That does not mean that there is any relationship between each other but they certainly know each other through Rhaegars wife and closest friend. (this is more to @maudisdottir )

Edited by SirArthur

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13 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe I have no text reference but there is also nothing that suggests they haven't talked. Maybe being at the tourney in Harrenhal is not enough but a lady-in-waiting to Rhaegars wife is certainly enough to at least acknowledge them talking with each other.

And on top of that Ser Arthur Dayne is Rhaegars best buddy. 

It is like Stannis and Littlefinger. They are both part of the small council but there is no text evidence (I can think of) suggesting they ever talked to each other. And that idea is just bizarre.

That does not mean that there is any relationship between each other but they certainly know each other through Rhaegars wife and closest friend. (this is more to @maudisdottir )

Of course they knew each other and must have talked, but wouldn't you think that for people who supposedly got intimate and together created a main character of the story, there should be wee bit more information on their interaction? In this respect, your parallel with Stannis and LF is actually quite fitting: the two never had a relationship, and their conversations, which were bound to happen from time to time, are of no significance for the story. Whatever conversations Rhaegar might have had with Ashara, were apparently insignificant to the story, and so was anything else that might have happened between them, because five books into the story, there should have been at least some hints. Living under one roof and being a sister to Rhaegar's buddy doesn't qualify as a hint; by such logic, Rhaegar must have bedded the young Whent daughter at HH, too.

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59 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

Maybe I have no text reference but there is also nothing that suggests they haven't talked.

That is true.

However: "you can't prove that those two never talked" does not make a gripping story. Or a story at all.

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56 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That is true.

However: "you can't prove that those two never talked" does not make a gripping story. Or a story at all.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand this is why I do not buy the R+A=D theory.

 

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Well, there are two instances, both in the fifth book, where Rhaegar and Ashara are mentioned in the same paragraph. Hawt!

R+L=J &/or D, eat your heart out! :laugh:

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On 10/11/2017 at 9:10 PM, maudisdottir said:

Sorry, what? Where is the evidence for Rhaegar and Ashara even talking to one another, let alone having a child together?

There is a fair amount of evidence for R+L because a whole bunch of characters acknowledge it (Ned, Robert, Barristan, Cersei etc). Can you point to anything in the books that would even hint at something between Rhaegar and Ashara?

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …
But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead

 

Combine with the fact that Eddard wouldn't cheat on Cat, and Jon is the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the only prince to die during Robert's Rebellion other than baby Prince Aegon and Prince Lewyn Martell.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

 Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
 
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

"Exile," she said. "A bitter cup to drink from."
"A sweeter cup than your father served Rhaegar's children," Ned said, "and kinder than you deserve. Your father and your brothers would do well to go with you. Lord Tywin's gold will buy you comfort and hire swords to keep you safe. You shall need them. I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be."

 

Ned doesn't bat an eye or deny anything. Just simply goes on to warn Cersei to hide her children too, or else Robert will kill them too.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …
But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

 

The fact Ashara had a child is not disputed. Up till ADWD, all we knew was that Ashara had a child Eddard was accused of stealing. Then Barristan tells us the child was a daughter, but that it had been still born. Yet, Eddard couldn't take the child if it was still born. Barristan also cant remember that Symon Toyne never fought in the Tourney he recalls, as he had killed Simon by time that Tourney happened.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys IV

"He won some tourneys, surely," said Dany, disappointed.
"When he was young, His Grace rode brilliantly in a tourney at Storm's End, defeating Lord Steffon Baratheon, Lord Jason Mallister, the Red Viper of Dorne, and a mystery knight who proved to be the infamous Simon Toyne, chief of the kingswood outlaws. He broke twelve lances against Ser Arthur Dayne that day."
"Was he the champion, then?"

 

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon's tourney at Storm's End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I 

 And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him.What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

The world was simpler in those days, Jaime thought, and men as well as swords were made of finer steel. Or was it only that he had been fifteen? They were all in their graves now, the Sword of the Morning and the Smiling Knight, the White Bull and Prince Lewyn, Ser Oswell Whent with his black humor, earnest Jon Darry, Simon Toyne and his Kingswood Brotherhood, bluff old Sumner Crakehall. And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys's throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the SmilingKnight instead.

 

To which Martin clarifies. 

Quote

 

The information about this tourney is problematic because some details in A Storm of Swords conflict. In response, George R. R. Martin suggested that the outlaw Simon Toyne was already dead by this time and the elderly Ser Barristan misremembered.[15]

 
FEBRUARY 12, 2001

SOME CONTINUITY ODDITIES

[Note: The first part of this entry is an excerpt from a mail in response to a note that there seems to be a continuity error in SoS, concerning the date of the death of the outlaw Simon Toyne and Rhaegar's defeat of him at the tourney at Storm's End, as reported by Ser Barristan early in the book and as recorded in The White Book.]

Ooops. Good catch...

As to this glitch... I think my defense in that the account in The White Book is correct. Ser Barristan is an old man, after all, recounting things that happened in his youth. You ought to see me and my friends sitting around at a con:

ME: Hey, remember Torcon 2, when Joe Haldeman found two naked girls in a bathtub of grape jello. Alice and Angela, wasn't it?

SOMEONE ELSE: It was lime jello, you idiot, and it was Big Mac, not Torcon. Three were three girls -- Betty, Veronica, and Lee.

JOE: Lime jello, two girls, it was Applesusan and Avedon, and it was Discon.

In other words, Ser Barristan is undoubtingly conflating events that happened at two or three different tourneys. Any way, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

So the idea that Ashara's daughter is still alive and that Eddard had taken the child to protect it from Robert, isn't that hard to put together. 

 

Quote

 

AUGUST 29, 2002

CONJOSE (SAN JOSE, CA; AUGUST 29-SEPTEMBER 2)

A few questions I asked for Ran and a few I asked myself.

Can any noble have a paramour regardless of gender, rank, or marital status? For example, an unwed young heiress having a paramour. 
No comment.

Could each partner in a marriage have their own paramour? 
Yes, but it would depend on the rank of the partners.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1285

 

Ashara Dayne is of Dorne and of Dornish customs. 

Quote

Scifi.com Chat, December 2000:
Moderator: Elio> to <Moderator>: Hi, GRRM.  Ser Arthur Dayne is an evocative figure, both to characters in the books and to the readers. But ... after seeing that Barristan the Bold's illustrious career spans more than half a century, how is it that Dayne is so famed and well-regarded? He couldn't have been much older than his mid-20's when he died. 
GRRM: As for Arthur Dayne... well, you'll learn more of him in future books, but part of the mystique was certainly the sword he carried, which had an illustrious history of its own.

Moderator: <Linda> to <Moderator>: A couple of times in the books, the word "paramour" is used in connection with the Dornishmen (Lord Yronwood's paramour and Ellaria Sand), but no one else. Is that meant to connote customs and habits peculiar to the Dornish, or is it simply coincidence? 
GRRM: Dornish customs and habits. The Rhoynar influence. A Dornishman's paramour has a certain status, below that of a wife but not insignifcant

Ill save you all the quote examples of paramours in the story including Daenerys' own paramour. 

As Elia Martell is of Dorne also, and Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia. Its quite possible she was the paramour of Elia and Rhaegar.

So the dishonoring of Harrenhal.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …
But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Barristan- If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

So for one, the dishonoring happened upon Rhaegar's victory, as Barristan feels had he won, he could've avoided her dishonoring. So Rhaegar's victory and crowning Lyanna was the dishonor, preventable by Barristan. Which is why Ashara looked to Stark, Lyanna Stark. The woman who just took her place.

Edit-               The Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys :)

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As Elia Martell is of Dorne also, and Ashara was lady in waiting to Elia. Its quite possible she was the paramour of Elia and Rhaegar.

Edit-               The Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys :)

So after all of those quotes, this is all you've got, "It's quite possible". There's still nothing to connect Rhaegar to Ashara - no conversations, no looks, no dancing, no rumours. Yet Barristan goes so far as to name "Stark" as the one Ashara looked to, and said that her suicide might have been partly due to grief for the one who dishonoured her. I'm not buying the argument that she "looked to Stark" for help or for comfort, or for anything other than sex/romance; and of course as far as I'm concerned, "Stark" is Brandon. If all Ashara was looking for was comfort or help, why would Barristan regret not winning the tourney because he could have stopped Ashara from looking to "Stark", and avoiding all the trouble to come?

And I'm also not buying that Daenerys means Dayne-heiress. Just no.

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1 minute ago, maudisdottir said:

So after all of those quotes, this is all you've got, "It's quite possible". There's still nothing to connect Rhaegar to Ashara - no conversations, no looks, no dancing, no rumours. Yet Barristan goes so far as to name "Stark" as the one Ashara looked to, and said that her suicide might have been partly due to grief for the one who dishonoured her. I'm not buying the argument that she "looked to Stark" for help or for comfort, or for anything other than sex/romance; and of course as far as I'm concerned, "Stark" is Brandon. If all Ashara was looking for was comfort or help, why would Barristan regret not winning the tourney because he could have stopped Ashara from looking to "Stark", and avoiding all the trouble to come?

And I'm also not buying that Daenerys means Dayne-heiress. Just no.

You asked for evidence they may have spoke. If your looking for an exact quote of them talking, that's just desperate and a weak argument against something. Especially when you go on at the end to propose Ashara and Brandon. Ashara was the lady in waiting to Elia Martell, Rhaegar's wife. What further proximity do you need for these two to have spoken with each other? Really? I mean, run with it if it's all you got, but ignoring every logical set up already in the quotes for something extremely weak all because in the 5th book, Brandon is alluded to as taking what he wanted. Even though Martin said everything to figure it out is in the first book.... ok.

I never said she looked to Stark for help or comfort so your bringing up other peoples arguments to steer off onto your apparent thoughts of Brandon. Who has just as little evidence for. Really? There is nothing saying they talked other than Brandon telling her Eddard wants to dance with her. Nothing else. That's even worse than the idea of Eddard and Ashara having kids. Brandon died way to soon to father either Jon or Dany and Allyria was introduced so late that i think that its a weak argument. 

As far as Eddard and Ashara. It just doesnt add up no matter how people wanna twist the facts. Even House Dayne does not acknowledge Jon as one of them. Edric gets mad when being called a liar. His story being Eddard fathered Jon on Wylla breaking Ashara's heart. All while after being wed to Cat, making Ned as bad a Robert. I just do not buy that. 

I have a hard time rereading your response as it really ignores everything i said. Except your response to the play on Dany's name. Which, cool. There is more than enough evidence set up in the first book to allude to Dany being the child of Ashara and Jon being the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There is literally nothing to support your theory in the first book. At least the Eddard theorist have something to work on with the first book. 

Never mind the fact the the first book covers Ned's account as being Wylla, and suggest Eddard angered at Robert killing Targ babies, was out hiding Targ babies. Ned was also in the North when Jon was being conceived. So unless Ashara decided to travel alll the way North cause Ned and her were just that horny and in a rush to get married, they had to do it in the middle of a war, when to two couldn't be any further apart. All for a supposed marriage that accomplishes nothing in the middle of a war. He's not Robb and wasn't nursed back to health by Ashara so i dont even wanna hear that idea or that as a justification for Eddard's possible actions. It just flies in the face of everything were told about Eddard from every body.

Eddard upon arriving at Starfall after killing Arthur and holding baby Jon, needs a huge favor from a house that other wise has no reason to help him. Ashara likely to be upset at the death of her brother.

Yet, House Dayne needs a huge favor as they need to hide Ashara's daughter. It fully explains the complexities of what happened. Varys very likely new of Ashara's pregnancy and certainly would explain Eddard's disliking of him upon arriving to the first counsel meeting. Something about Vary from back then bothers Eddard to this day. 

 

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I haven't watched those clips. I watched the original version and I didn't think the premise held water. And I don't buy the whole Dany isn't really Dany stuff or that her father is Rhaegar. This one just gives me a headache.

How old is Allyria Dayne? Beric is around 22 when he finally dies. If there's a cover-up, I'm more inclined to believe that she is the daughter Barristan is talking about. If she was born after Harrenhal then she'd be about 18. 

I also acknowledge that Allyria could be a half-sister and that may be why she is much younger than her other siblings. 

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8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

How old is Allyria Dayne? Beric is around 22 when he finally dies. If there's a cover-up, I'm more inclined to believe that she is the daughter Barristan is talking about. If she was born after Harrenhal then she'd be about 18. 

I also acknowledge that Allyria could be a half-sister and that may be why she is much younger than her other siblings. 

We know nothing about Allyria.

Are we even told that is she is a DAYNE at all?

Isn't all we know that she is Edric's aunt - and could just as well be his maternal aunt?

 

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13 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I haven't watched those clips. I watched the original version and I didn't think the premise held water. And I don't buy the whole Dany isn't really Dany stuff or that her father is Rhaegar. This one just gives me a headache.

How old is Allyria Dayne? Beric is around 22 when he finally dies. If there's a cover-up, I'm more inclined to believe that she is the daughter Barristan is talking about. If she was born after Harrenhal then she'd be about 18. 

I also acknowledge that Allyria could be a half-sister and that may be why she is much younger than her other siblings. 

Allyria is mentioned exactly once in the entire series. No details given save for first name. If she were to meant to be anyone even marginally important, GRRM would have bothered to write her name more than once, I think.

In fact, one needs to dig in the (in)famous app to confirm that Ned's aunt betrothed to Lord Beric, and Ned's aunt Allyria, are one and the same aunt, and that her surname is in fact Dayne. According to the wiki. (I still don't have the app).

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24 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

We know nothing about Allyria.

Are we even told that is she is a DAYNE at all?

Isn't all we know that she is Edric's aunt - and could just as well be his maternal aunt?

No, we don't know a single thing about her, and yeah, she could be an aunt from the other side, absolutely. All I was saying is that she'd be the right age to be this stillborn Stark baby, if we're throwing tinfoil around. Or maybe there's zero mystery and the baby is as dead as Barristan thinks she is.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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On 12.10.2017 at 9:45 PM, SirArthur said:

Maybe I have no text reference but there is also nothing that suggests they haven't talked. 

It is impossible to disprove something to not have existed. If I say, there is a small invisible teacup that is floating between the orbit of the Earth and Mars, but it is tiny, and also consists of no known matter and is not affected by gravity and does not interact with light, there is no way you can disprove this argument. You can not possibly ever prove that something does not exist. 

So saying, that we have no proof that they have NOT talked, is impossible to disprove. Therefore it is not a valid arguement, since you can say this about anything.

Edited by Dragonsbone

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

All I was saying is that she'd be the right age to be this stillborn Stark baby, if we're throwing tinfoil around.

Oh, OK :)

 

 

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