manchester_babe

did the targs breed with dragons?

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according to the world of fire & ice; they bred with dragons and they did in inbreed.

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Posted (edited)

There does seem to be something to this rumour, although one could certainly take the Blood of The Dragon idea to be simple Valyrian posturing. Never the less, there are quite a few hints in the text

  • Reptilian featured Targ kids such as Rhaego and Rhaenyra's daughter.
  • The City of the Winged Men, located in eastern Essos, is said to be the haunt of humans who fly upon leathern wings.
  • There seems to have been a fair bit of Umbrella corporation/Dr. Moroe style bio engineering going on in the Freehold. Valyrians were known to mate woman with beast in places such as Gorgossos. 
  • The dragon dreams of Dany, Aerion Brightflame and others.
  • Valyrian sphinxes - the body of a dragon and face of a woman. The Freehold notoriously battered the Ghiscari in five consecutive wars. How much of their enemies culture did they take interest in? The scions of Grazdan were known for their love of harpy based imagery, perhaps the Valyrians were inspired by these hybrid statues and sought to turn themselves into humanoid dragons.
  • The Valyrians themselves could somehow have evolved from dragons. If you look at the shape of Drogon and co in TWOIAF Dany illustration, Drogon does have some humanoid characteristics such as his torso, chest and "hands". The Valyrians do claim descent from their fiery companions, this could explain the original "sheep farmers who found the dragons in the 14 flames", and why a bunch of human farmers were living in a mountainous active volcano range. 
Edited by Leo of House Cartel

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7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

There does seem to be something to this rumour, although one could certainly take the Blood of The Dragon idea to be simple Valyrian posturing. Never the less, there are quite a few hints in the text

  • Reptilian featured Targ kids such as Rhaego and Rhaenyra's daughter.
  • The City of the Winged Men, located in eastern Essos, is said to be the haunt of humans who fly upon leathern wings.
  • There seems to have been a fair bit of Umbrella corporation/Dr. Moroe style bio engineering going on in the Freehold. Valyrians were known to mate woman with beast in places such as Gorgossos. 
  • The dragon dreams of Dany, Aerion Brightflame and others.
  • Valyrian sphinxes - the body of a dragon and face of a woman. The Freehold notoriously battered the Ghiscari in five consecutive wars. How much of their enemies culture did they take interest in? The scions of Grazdan were known for their love of harpy based imagery, perhaps the Valyrians were inspired by these hybrid statues and sought to turn themselves into humanoid dragons.
  • The Valyrians themselves could somehow have evolved from dragons. If you look at the shape of Drogon and co in TWOIAF Dany illustration, Drogon does have some humanoid characteristics such as his torso, chest and "hands". The Valyrians do claim descent from their fiery companions, this could explain the original "sheep farmers who found the dragons in the 14 flames", and why a bunch of human farmers were living in a mountainous active volcano range. 

Hi, this is half off-topic, but by "sheep farmers" do you mean the sheep people of Miri the witch? So far, I've only watched the TV series, and recently read the first book (AGoT). That's when I realized, the whole dragon thing might actually have been the witch's plan - without her, Drogo would have lived, and the dragons never hatched. Is there such a theory, Miri/sheep people intentionally using Dany to make dragons great again? 

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Hey yo Ice C.

I was more refering to the original settlers of Valyria, who were said to tend to sheep before finding the dragons.

From the wiki; 

"Valyria was once a minor civilization of peaceful sheep-herding folk dwelling on the Valyrian peninsula, until the Valyrians discovered dragons lairing in the Fourteen Flames, a ring of volcanoes on the peninsula. The Valyrians tamed the dragons with magic and mastered the technique of raising and training the dragons into devastating weapons of war.

Take that with a pinch of salt, as by this point there are numerous variations on the Valyrian origin story, each with their respective merits and flaws.

In regards to Miri's plan to bring back dragons, you might be on to something dude. Remember in AGOT where Miri discusses her tutelage in the dark arts? There are several clues based around her tutor in later books. Keep reading homie! 

As far as I'm aware Miri's people the Lhazareen don't have a direct connection to Old Valyria. With their almond eyes, copper skin and black hair, the Lamb Men seem like they may share origins with the Dothraki.

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Maybe 2 years ago I was utterly convinced there was some blood mingling between Valyrians and dragons.   Then I was introduced to the soul transfer hypotheses.  Then Sons of the Dragon was released and I'm back to absolutely sure there is lots of beastiality in the way back of time.    There are lots of strange strange people on Planetos.  Those poor folks on Ib bother me most, I think.  This blood magic and sorcery goes back through time immemoriam.   Valyrians themselves ran the penal colony on Gorgossos.  They were the ones mating women with beasts.  Makes a simple reader sure wonder why they would do this.   Although I'm sure there was more to it than women and wyvern, it's clear that actual sex was involved in the process.   Ewww.   I'm looking at my iguana wondering how a woman could pull this off.    It had to be human male to female beast.   These reptiles are no so easy to figure out.   

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On 10/14/2017 at 11:44 PM, Curled Finger said:

Maybe 2 years ago I was utterly convinced there was some blood mingling between Valyrians and dragons.   Then I was introduced to the soul transfer hypotheses.  Then Sons of the Dragon was released and I'm back to absolutely sure there is lots of beastiality in the way back of time.    There are lots of strange strange people on Planetos.  Those poor folks on Ib bother me most, I think.  This blood magic and sorcery goes back through time immemoriam.   Valyrians themselves ran the penal colony on Gorgossos.  They were the ones mating women with beasts.  Makes a simple reader sure wonder why they would do this.   Although I'm sure there was more to it than women and wyvern, it's clear that actual sex was involved in the process.   Ewww.   I'm looking at my iguana wondering how a woman could pull this off.    It had to be human male to female beast.   These reptiles are no so easy to figure out.   

And the hybrids like Rhaego and Visenya, daughter of Rhaenyra are utterly non-functional.

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On 10/7/2017 at 7:03 PM, manchester_babe said:

according to the world of fire & ice; they bred with dragons and they did in inbreed.

It seems so far-fetched, but then,,,

On 10/8/2017 at 4:34 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

There does seem to be something to this rumour, although one could certainly take the Blood of The Dragon idea to be simple Valyrian posturing. Never the less, there are quite a few hints in the text

  • Reptilian featured Targ kids such as Rhaego and Rhaenyra's daughter.
  • The City of the Winged Men, located in eastern Essos, is said to be the haunt of humans who fly upon leathern wings.
  • There seems to have been a fair bit of Umbrella corporation/Dr. Moroe style bio engineering going on in the Freehold. Valyrians were known to mate woman with beast in places such as Gorgossos. 
  • The dragon dreams of Dany, Aerion Brightflame and others.
  • Valyrian sphinxes - the body of a dragon and face of a woman. The Freehold notoriously battered the Ghiscari in five consecutive wars. How much of their enemies culture did they take interest in? The scions of Grazdan were known for their love of harpy based imagery, perhaps the Valyrians were inspired by these hybrid statues and sought to turn themselves into humanoid dragons.
  • The Valyrians themselves could somehow have evolved from dragons. If you look at the shape of Drogon and co in TWOIAF Dany illustration, Drogon does have some humanoid characteristics such as his torso, chest and "hands". The Valyrians do claim descent from their fiery companions, this could explain the original "sheep farmers who found the dragons in the 14 flames", and why a bunch of human farmers were living in a mountainous active volcano range. 

So, there does seem to be something there. I suspect it probably has something to do with some fell sorcery fusing the blood of the dragon with the blood of forty noble Valyrian families. 

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

And the hybrids like Rhaego and Visenya, daughter of Rhaenyra are utterly non-functional.

True, but these children died in the womb or shortly after entering the world.    If these children survived who knows how they might function.   Still I think they are proof of genetic manipulation.   

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You guys might appreciate this severely cracked pot...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off from the Painted Dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but I still think Alys fits the roll of a fire witch better, so...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? Maybe one of those deformed dragon babies, kept alive by sorcery! And what if Timett is not only the true heir to the Vale (it is known), but also a descendant of ol' One-Eye?!?

C'mon, that'd be cool. 

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On 10/19/2017 at 9:10 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

You guys might appreciate this severely cracked pot...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off from the Painted Dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but I still think Alys fits the roll of a fire witch better, so...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? Maybe one of those deformed dragon babies, kept alive by sorcery! And what if Timett is not only the true heir to the Vale (it is known), but also a descendant of ol' One-Eye?!?

C'mon, that'd be cool. 

Reminds me of the story "The Colour Out of Space" by Lovecraft.

Which means, yeah- that's be AWESOME!

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On 10/19/2017 at 6:10 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

You guys might appreciate this severely cracked pot...

So there's that little box about the Mountain Clans in the Vale, TWOIAF that says the Burned Men were spun off from the Painted Dogs when they were enthralled by a fire a witch with a dragon. I read Alys into this when I first read it but the more likely candidate was Nettles since the fire witch commanded a dragon, but I still think Alys fits the roll of a fire witch better, so...

What if the dragon wasn't a dragon like Sheepstealer but the child of Aemond One-Eye?!? Maybe one of those deformed dragon babies, kept alive by sorcery! And what if Timett is not only the true heir to the Vale (it is known), but also a descendant of ol' One-Eye?!?

C'mon, that'd be cool. 

That would be beyond cool.   I'd like to see one of those little Valyrian Sphinxes alive and capable of well something.   You are a scary dude, but I like it! 

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Nah. Sort of.

When someone skin changes a beast and fucks a like beast, a resulting pregnancy is going to produce some weird shit. Abominations. Hence the rules. Targs were not one's for rules but that's not what has caused their issue. Point is skin changing, or second lifing, not only fucks with mind, but also with the blood, it impacts the DNA, and so too future generations of offspring. In terms the text uses, the bones remember, a shadow on the soul, blood of the dragon, wolf's blood.

Varamyr couldn't take full grown Thistle, she fought back and Varamyr lost the battle with her mind for her body. Bran can take Hodor, a less capable mind. The Others want Craster's children, the least of developed minds, apparently they become Others. The less substantial a mind, the easier it is to take, to move out the way, to make thrall.

To second life a dragon one has to either co-exist with the dragon inside, probably not an easy feat, or, possibly one could expel it, move it on. If that's possible then having an empty vessel, like a baby, to move it to might be key. Thus you get deformed Targaryens with dragon traits in the womb and live dragon eggs whose hatchlings consider the mother theirs. But more than that you get mothers who share the blood with their child in the womb, blood that is tainted with dragon's blood.

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I always thought that the Blood of the Dragon came from magical sympathy and proximity to dragons rather than actual sex with them...

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3 hours ago, LionoftheWest said:

I always thought that the Blood of the Dragon came from magical sympathy and proximity to dragons rather than actual sex with them...

If the blood has mingled, I would think it was through a magical process rather than... eww... just eww... 

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If the blood has mingled, I would think it was through a magical process rather than... eww... just eww... 

We really just don't know. We can speculate but it is really not worth the time. It could be actual sex, working because of magic. Remember Yandel's talk about what the Valyrians did in Gogossos. It could be some sort of magical ritual involving an exchange of blood, with or without real blood sacrifices. It could some sort of bath in dragon blood - after an early Valyrian slew a dragon - like Siegfried does in the legend.

The possibilities there are endless.

My personal feeling is that - assuming George is ever exploring this back story (and there is really no need for him to do so - it would be nice, but it is just some background detail) - he would savor this thing. Which means he would go with the ugliest and grossest version of this kind of thing. And that likely means that the ancient Valyrians actually had real sex with some dragons.

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My view of it all is that no actual blood mixing was taking place, but that the whole "blood of dragons" thing is something akin to a rumour that took hold among the Valyrians and their enemies.
It just seems to me that once they were out and about using dragons for warfare and conquering places stories would fly about allover the place about dragons and the power they brought. I'd imagine that eventually the Valyrians simply became blended into the idea of the dragons as their enemies didn't distinguish between the war machine and the pilot. 
And by that stage i suspect the Valyrians were so into their whole dragon/magic/fire cultism that they probably believed they themselves were dragons too.

After that the stories spread and eventually when people refer to the dragons, it's unclear if they mean just the animals or their riders themselves.

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 I'm of ths camp that thinks some skinchanging Westerosi migrated to Valyria after the Long Night ended, found some dragons, some of them were strong enough to skinchange them and the bond was formed.  

But the hybrid thing permeates WOIAF, and I don't even want to know what experiments Qyburn is conducting, so who knows?

Is it possible dragons could skinchange humans in a reciprocal bond?  Because that might make sense of it.  A dragon skinchanges a human, the humans mate, and the offspring have traces of dragon minds, madness, ferocity, and even, since we know spirit clings to bone, physical characteristics too in the form of of deformed offspring.  Hypothetical but you do see somethkng of it in berserkers, for instance, channelling their inner wolf or in Jorah's case at that tournament, inner bears.  Maybe the offspring inherit these part dragon spirits so we get someone like Aerys savaging his wife and obsessed with fire?

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On 10/23/2017 at 4:31 PM, Lord Varys said:

We really just don't know. We can speculate but it is really not worth the time. It could be actual sex, working because of magic. Remember Yandel's talk about what the Valyrians did in Gogossos. It could be some sort of magical ritual involving an exchange of blood, with or without real blood sacrifices. It could some sort of bath in dragon blood - after an early Valyrian slew a dragon - like Siegfried does in the legend.

The possibilities there are endless.

My personal feeling is that - assuming George is ever exploring this back story (and there is really no need for him to do so - it would be nice, but it is just some background detail) - he would savor this thing. Which means he would go with the ugliest and grossest version of this kind of thing. And that likely means that the ancient Valyrians actually had real sex with some dragons.

I'm leaning towards insertion of dragonblood into their bodies as well.

However, I don't deny that your argument that GRRM would go with grossest version has weight. The question is how would they go about it? Would they jerk the dragons off like with bulls hogs, etc. and artificially inseminate their daughters? Because, if a dragon's body temperature is hot enough to melt iron, then I don't think a guy could have sex with a dragon without burning off his prick. They would have to artificially inseminate the dragons in that scenario, and wait for kids to hatch out of the eggs. To even mate with dragons, they would need a good amount of dragon pheromones.  

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2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I'm leaning towards insertion of dragonblood into their bodies as well.

Having 'the blood of the dragon' can actually being just aristocratic speech for 'I'm descended from a dragon' or 'one of my ancestors was conceived by dragon semen' or 'one of my ancestors was born by a she-dragon/hatched from a dragon egg' (although the latter image is actually pretty weird).

I mean, if people are running around telling us that they have Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, etc. blood they mean they are descended from such people - either through the male or the female line.

In the end it might be the same with the descendants of the Valyrian dragonlords.

2 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

However, I don't deny that your argument that GRRM would go with grossest version has weight. The question is how would they go about it? Would they jerk the dragons off like with bulls hogs, etc. and artificially inseminate their daughters? Because, if a dragon's body temperature is hot enough to melt iron, then I don't think a guy could have sex with a dragon without burning off his prick. They would have to artificially inseminate the dragons in that scenario, and wait for kids to hatch out of the eggs. To even mate with dragons, they would need a good amount of dragon pheromones.  

I have literally no idea. The only explanation I can offer that (quite literally) a wizard would have made it work. The idea that dragons - or people appearing like dragons or serpents or whatever - actually fathered children is a very old trope in legendary literature (just think of Alexander the Great in the Alexander romances).

A possibility it is that there is some sort of weirdo miracle at the beginning - say, some children being protected, cared for, and fed by a dragon, like Romulus and Remus were cared for by the she-wolf. Such children could then already have been 'different' with an already established connection to dragons, and then eventually embarked on the journey to really professionally harness the power of dragons.

It is not all that likely that some shepherd just woke up at a morning, asking: 'Wouldn't it be cool if we were controlling those dragons from the volcanoes down there - who are preying on us and our sheep alike - instead of constantly hiding from them?' It would be cool, but the road from that idea to actually accomplishing that thing must have been very stony. Especially since no other culture could ever mimic that Valyrian trick - indicating that it wasn't exactly easy to pull off.

One would assume the way to make it work would involved first making a dragon (bloodline) more human by spells and magic (which could have been possible for those ancient Valyrian sorcerers in their prime - they apparently continued to explore the creation of human-animal hybrids later on) and then reaching the point where actual intercourse could take place. That could have involved a lot of blood sacrifices and the like.

If you want to have it less gross would could also have a (pregnant) woman be made more and more 'dragon-like' through magical means without there ever being any intercourse (perhaps by killing a lot dragons and having the woman bathe in its blood, eat parts of the dragon corpses, etc.). Or male semen could have been 'dragonized' magically before being inserted in a vagina (that would have been 'the cleanest way' and thus perhaps not so likely).

But it is not something we really have to explore in detail. In fact, it could come off very easily as pretty silly if George ever did cover that in detail. But I guess there is a chance that we might learn more on the topic in one of Bran's visions, even if he doesn't have any visions going back to the founding of Valyria itself.

An interesting way to give the truth behind 'the blood of the dragon' away could be to actually present us with a viable human-dragon hybrid, perhaps via vision from the days of the Long Night, or early Valyrian days. 'The blood of the dragon' must have run a lot purer in those ancient days, and with Valyrian sorcerers around such creatures could actually have survived not only their births but even thrived later on. We don't know whether there were some Valyrian dragonlords with scales, wings instead of arms, forked tongues, etc. but it is certainly possible.

There is also the recurring theme of the 'mad belief' of Targaryens such as Aerion and Aerys II that they could physically transform into living dragons. I've briefly discussed that concept in the female characters thread with @lojzelote and we briefly touched upon George's 'The Skin Trade' were we are having werewolves following a Targaryen-like marriage policy (not sibling incest, but constantly marrying within the same few families) to ensure that the 'werewolf gene' isn't bred out of the bloodline - and, like with the Targaryens, you have powerful pure-blood werewolves, utter failures who can't even transform into a wolf, and less impressive wolves which are the descendants of people married outside the gene pool.

On the basis of that, we were wondering whether George actually considered at one point to make the Targaryens essentially 'were-dragons', originally having the ability to transform themselves into dragons. One could actually wonder whether the mad ideas of Aerion and Aerys II, the dragon-human hybrid children, and the talk that the Targaryens actually are dragons go back to such ideas.

I don't think we are going to see a Targaryen transform him- or herself into a living dragon, but I'd not rule out the possibility that such a thing might be possible for the right dragonlord descendant under the right circumstances with the right spells and magics helping them along.

But then - such a weird development certainly could help with defeating the Others. If Jon, Dany, Tyrion, etc. themselves could breathe fire in the right moments, that could come in pretty handy, especially if they discovered that ability in the Heart of Winter...

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I do believe that the Targs bred with dragons. Gene splicing (gene manipulation in general) and the repercussions of such actions are favorite topic of our author. He titles a section in one of his anthologies as "Hybrids and Horrors".

Quote

There is also the recurring theme of the 'mad belief' of Targaryens such as Aerion and Aerys II that they could physically transform into living dragons. I've briefly discussed that concept in the female characters thread with @lojzelote and we briefly touched upon George's 'The Skin Trade' were we are having werewolves following a Targaryen-like marriage policy (not sibling incest, but constantly marrying within the same few families) to ensure that the 'werewolf gene' isn't bred out of the bloodline - and, like with the Targaryens, you have powerful pure-blood werewolves, utter failures who can't even transform into a wolf, and less impressive wolves which are the descendants of people married outside the gene pool.

On the basis of that, we were wondering whether George actually considered at one point to make the Targaryens essentially 'were-dragons', originally having the ability to transform themselves into dragons. One could actually wonder whether the mad ideas of Aerion and Aerys II, the dragon-human hybrid children, and the talk that the Targaryens actually are dragons go back to such ideas.

I don't think we are going to see a Targaryen transform him- or herself into a living dragon, but I'd not rule out the possibility that such a thing might be possible for the right dragonlord descendant under the right circumstances with the right spells and magics helping them along.

But then - such a weird development certainly could help with defeating the Others. If Jon, Dany, Tyrion, etc. themselves could breathe fire in the right moments, that could come in pretty handy, especially if they discovered that ability in the Heart of Winter...

Except, The Skin Trade is not a Targaryen story all the way, just the once again theme of incest (forced genetic manipulation) brings the downfall of a dynasty, the idea of the Bloodstone emperor, and fire and such. Small details in comparison to the main point of the story. It is basically the history of the Bolton jealousy and animosity of toward the Starks that we get hints of in the ASOAIF series. I mean, Skin Trade (skin changing) is all about a "Reek" and actually trading skins and about a hundred other Bolton clued bits of story.

I don't think we will get a literal transformation into a dragon. I do think there will be some second-lifeing in a dragon, though. That is a skin trade, afterall.

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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