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What would have happened if Margaery had died with Joffrey?


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5 hours ago, falcotron said:

At least as far as Varys can figure out, offering Margy to Robert was an idea that Renly and/or Loras came up with, and only even mentioned to Mace after they'd already tried to bring Ned in.

Varys could be wrong here—he doesn't seem to know much about the plan, and seems to think of it as less important than the other plots converging at the same time—but still, I don't think we can ever just assume Varys is out of the loop without evidence.

Also, if it's such a simple and obvious plan that Renly could believably have originated it, then even if it was Mace's plan, how much credit does that give him?

I doubt Olenna had much to do with it. In fact, I get the impression that she only found out that Margy & Joff were to be married after Mace had proposed it, hence her desperately wanting to learn more about Joff in a hurry.

But remember that Littlefinger was there to negotiate the deal. (And he also probably seeded the information that Olenna found.) Sure, it's actually a pretty good deal for both sides—but still, if either LF or Mace was manipulating the other one, my money isn't on Mace as the chessmaster there.

But that's exactly what Tywin thinks of Mace—that he cares about visible high status. If he needed to make a deal with Mace that was only going to make him great-uncle instead of grandfather of the next king, he'd throw in a grander title and a corner office, and Mace would take it. And I don't see any evidence that Tywin is reading him wrong.

Well, Venice is definitely Braavos, and Edinburgh is definitely White Harbor. But I don't think Hamburg matches anything.* One of the problems with having only 15 cities to match all of Europe** is that, even matching each one to multiple European cities, you can't plausibly make the multifunction surjective.

I don't think Desmera is important in the current story. After all, fans aren't even speculating on whether she's secretly Ashara or Euron or a time-traveling member of the Great Empire of the Dawn.

But if Margy died while Mace survived and still had an army and navy worth negotiating for, that would be a different story.

---

* The best match is Braavos, but only in that Hamburg is sort of like the Amsterdam of Germany, the big trade (but not banking) city built on a history of independence (but not immigration) and lots of bridges (but not canals). Everything else—you've got the poorer trade city stuck on an island in the northern sea, the big hot southern river delta city, the central city built on traditional crafts, the three cities that connect the southern sea with the western one, the inland upriver city with weird gods, and the other inland upriver city with weird gods and a forest.

** There's 5 Westerosi cities for Britain, 1 Ibbish city for Scandinavian, and 9 Free Cities for everything else. You can stretch it to 11 if you count Volantis's two colonies, and maybe you can toss Greece over to Slaver's Bay instead of western Essos, but 11 still isn't enough to cover every important city in Europe minus Greece.

[I need to figure out how to multi-quote in this forum...]

Anyway, my post is a bit reduced, since I accidentally lost the more detailed post I was writing, including various warging bits in four part harmony, including references to the Ottoman siege of Vienna, Brexit, and, tenuously, Donald Trump.

I proposed Mace to be contrarian, and also where, surely Mace would be seriously involved in any dynastic Tyrell bits. And, contrary to my prior post, surely showOleanna (ie Emma Peal) is worth some consideration... :)

Geographically, Hamburg clearly = Meeren. All are going there for the annual fair. And Julian Assange Varys is the headliner speaker. There are great rumours that his speech will be a great data dump revealing critical things like the credit-worthiness of the IT, and of the hedge funds run by the Maesters of Old Town, not to mention the Iron Bank's serious exposure to the presumed North Wall Bubble.

Copyright Wild Bill Enterprises, etc...

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18 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

While there is much better explanation that she gets strangler in Highgarden in her safezone that she created and she knew she was going to kill Joffrey back than. Or even buys strangler in kingslanding but seller doesn't knows the buyer and gives the strangler at once. 

Please. Unless you have a textual support that Olenna had such a safe zone, the author's words that the strangler is rare and hard to come by prevail.

18 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Textual support:

Wine is mostly water, so is sea water. When things dissolve they usually cause no color change because they dissolve into ions which are so small (can you tell difference between salty water or clean just by looking at it?) you can't see them. There is no change of color ever mentioned in description of strangler. There is no reason to believe it should cause color change. It is purple crystal but it is very small. And since it is rare and top tier poison it probably shouldn't show color when dissolved.

Man, you really shouldn't try to use chemistry to support your argument when you don't know basic facts. You can't see dissolved salt because it doesn't contain any pigments or anything like that. Try dissolving potassium permanganate - a bit the size of a poppy seed will turn a glass of water purple. When you drop it in water, you can even watch it produce a "trail" of purple particles as it descends.

18 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

I also find it really weird you argue that strangler shouldn't follow laws of science (so that being it is polar crystal that dissolves in polar liquids) while, science is important when it comes to strangler's effect on humans (saying Joffrey took 3 times longer to react to poison than Cressen because Cressen is an old man).

I didn't say it shouldn't, I said it doesn't have to because it's GRRM's fabrication. Nor did I claim that th reason why Cressen died faster was due to his age.

 

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

At the trial Pycelle said Tyrion stole many concoctions from his shelves. If I believe Tyrion he took a concoction that gave his sister an upset tummy (diarrhea) Pycelle accuses Tyrion of taking multiple elixirs from his chambers and Pycelle accuses Tyrion of taking the strangler from his stash.

He did take some more poitions, after he had Pycelle dragged to the Black Cells, but still, no strangler was mentioned, and since Tyrion risks speaking out of turn again and asks if any such was found in his chambers, we must presume that he knows the answer is "no" because he didn't take any.

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That is part of the reason I think multiple plots are going on at the wedding. One part is LF getting Sansa. One part is Tyrell getting rid of Joffrey. One part is Pycelle and possibly Tywin getting rid of Tyrion.

I agree that there are more than one plot going on, but the key one which we don't know yet is the role of Taena Merryweather. Did she testify to have seen Tyrion to drop something into the chalice because:

- she wanted to ingratiate herself with Cersei?

- she wanted to divert any possible suspicion from the Tyrells?

- she was instructed to do so by LF, for some reward?

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21 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

There is no such dilemma as "would you kill Hitler as a child?". There is no way of predicting future for certain and I don't think anyone could tell Hitler would become what he did, so this is pointless dilemma that doesn't exists.

It is indeed a long-standing philosophical dilemma, based on what-if. If you'd prefer a less theoretical one, we have it right in AGOT, when the news of Dany's pregnancy reaches KL. Ned absolutely rejects a pre-emptive strike on a 14 -year-old girl, while others argue that her death would prevent the deaths of many.

 

16 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So your take is that the wine is just naturally "deep purple"? Then why does it look red on the dias?

Red is a more general term (red x white). When you want to specify the colour, you will go for a more specific description of the shade.

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Tyrion is the only one who sees the wine at the end,

So, none of the people watching the scandal can see the colour of the wine on Joffrey's chin? Quote, please.

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 and yes he does notice that it is deep purple, which is a very unusual color for wine and is not used to describe any other wines at the wedding or anywhere else in the story. No one else comments on this unusual color because no one else can see it.

He sees that it's deep purple but never thinks that it is unusual colouring for wine, which, given Tyrion's love for wine, he would recognize.

BTW, you don't drink wines much, right?

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For crying out loud, just read the book. The entire scene literally unfolds in real-time. Talk about making up facts to fit a theory: an entire sequence of unnoticed, unremarked events to account for the minutes it takes to cut pies and walk them all the way from the kitchen rather than taking the simple, common-sense approach of having them at the ready so the most important people at the feast don't end up twiddling their thumbs waiting for their pies.

From the time the pie is cut to the end of the scene, find me one sequence that is not described in real-time. 

Nice strawmen there because sure as hell I never said, or thought, that Joff cut the pie and only then they sent for the pies to the kitchen. The servants would be standing at the ready with the smaller pies to be cut, and those pies would be brought inside whole, not pre-cut, because that's how meals were served at medieval feasts and that's how we see them served in ASOIAF. So, the servants come in, put the pies on the tables, start cutting and serving them to the guests. And it's absolutely unnecessary to even mention such details because they don't contribute to anything and describing every single happening of every second would drag the chapter down, just as Tyrion describing every single thing he sees happening would.

15 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Not a dilemma, then, but my understanding of @Ygrain's comment was that there is no difference morality-wise between killing someone that you intend to kill and killing someone by mistake in your attempt to kill someone else.

You need to work on your reading comprehension, I said none of the kind. I said there is a huge difference between premeditated murder and accidental killing, and that GRRM is talking about the moral dilemma of intentionally killing a young boy before he becomes a real monster.

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And again, you guys are cherry-picking your comments. He is clearly talking about the show at this point.

Reading comprehension again, I'm afraid. If he wants the readers and viewers ponder the same dilemma, he is apparently talking about both book and show containing the very same dilemma.

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23 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

As discussed above, we do know that the poison was in the hairnet, and we know that Olenna was the only one who touched it because when Sansa is asked about the subject Olenna is the only person.  

Yes because she knew for the fact nobody else ever touched her hairnet. She just said Olenna because she was well aware of it.

22 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

No, he isn't, because the second paragraph flows from the first, and he refers to Joffrey as "a 13-year-old boy", which is his book age.  Show Joffrey was older than that.

You think he even knows Joffrey is made older in the show?

On 10/18/2017 at 10:05 PM, Colonel Green said:

4.  The Purple Wedding, including a maiden with poison in her hair, i.e., Sansa.

"Would you kill Hitler as a child?" is a longstanding theoretical dilemma asking to the morality of pre-emptive action, one that GRRM himself employed when explaining what he was going for in the story, so I'm not sure what you're on about here.

Even if the poison is in her hairnet that doesn't makes Olenna a killer and Joffrey the target.

This is no dilemma since it is only theoretical and can never be real., so why discuss and bother with something that can never happen. No-one could predict what Hitler was going to do when he grows up, he wanted to be an artist.

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23 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

No, he isn't, because the second paragraph flows from the first, and he refers to Joffrey as "a 13-year-old boy", which is his book age.  Show Joffrey was older than that.

23 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

Whether or not you think it's definitive, he is explicitly talking about the books, which is what I was responding to.

 

Again, you're splitting hairs. This is a live interview focused on the show and you're going to base your whole theory on the idea that Martin has such a steel trap of a mind that he can impart clues and truths at any given moment off the top of his head.

The clear-cut, incontrovertible evidence is in the book. The timelines are different, the logistics are impossible and the motivations of the plotters to want to kill Joffrey at this point are absurd.

And again, I'll point to the definitive statement in that interview: "and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal ."

 

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On ‎10‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:20 AM, Wild Bill said:

I think you may be underestimating Mace. He might even be considered the Kingmaker, if he ever actually succeeded, that is. He offered out Maegory to Robert, but that didn't quite work out. But he did marry her to King Renly - score! OK, that didn't quite work out. Nor did Maegory with Joffery, or with Tommen (still to be seen), but still!

1) Mace is clearly the Kingmaker here - no doubt he put Maegory in play, and wed her to Renly after the notion of distracting Robert with a bit of stuff didn't quite work out. Them he pounced on the notion of Maegory + Joffery.

2) Some will argue about Olleana influence (but that's HBO talk) - Mace arranged for Maegory + Joffery, and then Tommen. Much better, and shuts cranky Olleana up for a bit.

3) Mace, slyly, sets himself with lots of high-status positions, including Master of Coin, which gives him the great privilege of attending festivals in Hamburg, Venice, and Edinburgh [nb, my translation service is down, so I'm not sure, exactly, what these place names are vs Westeros or Esteros].

So, is Mace, Mace? Or is Desmera Redwyne important? Inquiring minds want to know...

 

Mace is the kingmaker? How do you figure that? Every scene with Mace reveals himself to be a big, blustering blowhard:

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SoS, Tyrion III

Mace Tyrell spoke up. "Is there anything as pointless as a king without a kingdom? No, it's plain, the boy must abandon the riverlands, join his forces to Roose Bolton's once more, and throw all his strength against Moat Cailin."

... snip...

Lord Redwyne laughed. "What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky."

"Truly," agreed Mace Tyrell. "That's what I would do. Let King Balon finish the northmen whilst we finish Stannis."

...snip...

discussing Lysa Arryn: "Oh," said Mace Tyrell cheerfully, "women have no stomach for war. Let her be, I say, she's not like to trouble us."

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FfC, Cersei II

Mace gaped at her (Cersei). "Rosby? That...cougher? But...the matter was agreed Your Grace. Garth is on his way to Oldtown."

"Best send a raven to Lord Hightower and make sure you uncle does not take ship" ... snip...

A flush crept up Tyrell's thick neck. "This...your lord father assured me..." He began to sputter.

Then his mother appeared and slid her arm through his own. "It would seem that Lord Tywin did not share his plans with our regent. I can't imagine why. Still, there tis, no use hectoring Her Grace..."

...snip...

"I await that day (Tommen's marriage to Margaery) eagerly as well," Tyrell put in. "Lord Tywin and I were on the point of setting a date, as it happens. Perhaps you and I might take up that discussion, Your Grace?

"Soon."

"Soon will serve," said Lady Olenna with a sniff. "Now come along, Mace, let Her Grace get on with her ... grief."

I can't imagine any other lord who would allow his mother to chide him in front of their sovereign like that.

People say that this is all a ruse, but come on. Mace has a 20-year history of being a piss-poor commander and a feckless lord, all to what end? What possible strategic and/or political advantage could there be in pretending that the lord of the most powerful house in the realm is an idiot. Wayman Manderly can get away with it because he has the power of Winterfell to back him up. With Mace, all it does is make the Reach look weak and vulnerable. 

Lady O is the one who makes the decisions in Highgarden, although they are announced in Mace's name. The match between Joffrey and Margaery would not have been made unless Lady O agreed to it.

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Red is a more general term (red x white). When you want to specify the colour, you will go for a more specific description of the shade.

So, none of the people watching the scandal can see the colour of the wine on Joffrey's chin? Quote, please.

He sees that it's deep purple but never thinks that it is unusual colouring for wine, which, given Tyrion's love for wine, he would recognize.

BTW, you don't drink wines much, right?

And yet Tyrion pours the wine into the chalice to begin with and makes no note of this unusual color, nor any other deep purple wines at the feast or in his long history of drinking wine.

We don't know what other people are seeing. Joffrey has the cup to his lips and Tyrion is standing right in front of him looking up from below.

He notes that it is deep purple. If that looked normal, and the same color as when he first filled the chalice, he would just see a half-inch of wine.

I prefer reds to whites, but they give me a headache, especially in the spring and fall.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Nice strawmen there because sure as hell I never said, or thought, that Joff cut the pie and only then they sent for the pies to the kitchen. The servants would be standing at the ready with the smaller pies to be cut, and those pies would be brought inside whole, not pre-cut, because that's how meals were served at medieval feasts and that's how we see them served in ASOIAF. So, the servants come in, put the pies on the tables, start cutting and serving them to the guests. And it's absolutely unnecessary to even mention such details because they don't contribute to anything and describing every single happening of every second would drag the chapter down, just as Tyrion describing every single thing he sees happening would.

Yet another claim with absolute no textual support. Everything that Tyrion sees, hears and even thinks is described moment-by-moment, but just because you need it to fit your theory you invent entire sequences of hidden action. When you can provide some actual proof that lowborn, sweaty kitchen servants are wielding sharp knives right next to the glitterati of the realm, then we'll talk. Until then, we can consider this idea to be another wine-theory fantasy.

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You need to work on your reading comprehension, I said none of the kind. I said there is a huge difference between premeditated murder and accidental killing, and that GRRM is talking about the moral dilemma of intentionally killing a young boy before he becomes a real monster.

Reading comprehension again, I'm afraid. If he wants the readers and viewers ponder the same dilemma, he is apparently talking about both book and show containing the very same dilemma.

GR never said "intentionally". That is another invention on your part. And as I say above, this statement trumps all conclusions you hope to draw from that interview:

"I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal."

Gee, if everything about the Purple Wedding has been fully explained, I wonder what more surprises are waiting? Maybe Joffrey was wearing leopard-spotted underwear at the time? Maybe Margaery was really a man? All possible when the writer can put anything he wants into his books.

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1 hour ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

Yes because she knew for the fact nobody else ever touched her hairnet. She just said Olenna because she was well aware of it.

Fiddling with a person's hairnet to remove a gemstone from a fixed setting in it would be a highly noticeable action.

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You think he even knows Joffrey is made older in the show?

Seeing as he's talked at some length about the younger characters being aged up, yes.

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This is no dilemma since it is only theoretical and can never be real., so why discuss and bother with something that can never happen. No-one could predict what Hitler was going to do when he grows up, he wanted to be an artist.

Er, yes, it is a theoretical dilemma used to discuss the moral issue of preemption.  I'm not sure what you're even arguing here; this is a longstanding idea used in ethical debates, including explicitly by the author, who thinks it's an interesting question.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, you're splitting hairs. This is a live interview focused on the show and you're going to base your whole theory on the idea that Martin has such a steel trap of a mind that he can impart clues and truths at any given moment off the top of his head.

No, I'm not splitting hairs.  You said he was talking about the show, and I pointed out that he was explicitly talking about the books, at which point you changed the subject.

One doesn't need a steel trap mind to openly discuss something.  He's not being vague, he's talking about something he presumes the reader already knows, in fact (even though, in the course of doing so, he actually gave new information -- the whole choking angle -- that nobody had guessed, and in so doing clarified certain aspects of the story considerably).

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The clear-cut, incontrovertible evidence is in the book.  

On that, we agree.

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I agree that there are more than one plot going on, but the key one which we don't know yet is the role of Taena Merryweather. Did she testify to have seen Tyrion to drop something into the chalice because:

- she wanted to ingratiate herself with Cersei?

- she wanted to divert any possible suspicion from the Tyrells?

- she was instructed to do so by LF, for some reward?

I can’t add anything about Taena. I didn’t pay close attention to that character.

The rest of this post is me yammering about various ideas not directed at you particular. Thanks btw for being easy with me.

It may not be explicitly stated but it appears that Shae did have opportunity to have her fingers on Sansa’s hair net. Most likely, an irrelevant piece of trivia that means nothing.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII         Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together.  <snip>  . Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

 

That wedding chalice is rather large, three feet tall.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV      Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

 

As to the wine that @John Suburbs mentions, it does change colors.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "Let the cups be filled!" Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII       But suddenly he felt Ser Garlan's hand on his sleeve. "My lord, beware," the knight warned. "The king."     Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent.

Trivia information below.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII       "Bend down and pick up my chalice." Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. "Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?" He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. "Good, now fill it with wine." He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. "No, on your knees, dwarf." Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. "You can get up now, Uncle."

 

The chalice is placed upon the table, the King & his bride go off to cut the pie and after the whoopla return to the chalice.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

 

The wine was red when Joffrey doused Tyrion.  When Joff ^ came back to his chalice after cutting the ceremonial pie he took  a long drink from his chalice ^.  The wine runs purple down his chin ^.     Joff starts talking and eating Tyrion’s pie. Then Joff starts coughing.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

 

The above is not the reaction Cressen experienced. What I just realized is Cressen had a regular size cup while Joff had a three foot chalice. The poison would have been diluted by volume but still as deadly.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      Margaery looked at him with concern. "Your Grace?"

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . ." The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais. <snip>  Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone.

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII     The boy's only thirteen. Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand . . .  <snip>  . But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He [Tyrion] went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

 

I don’t remember if it is said that Joff’s face turned purple. Tyrion did say about Joff, “Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone” and Cressen did say, “it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist.”

A Clash of Kings - Prologue      Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

 

Now that I have had my ahha!  moment that Cressen had a regular size cup whereas Joffrey had a three foot tall chalice I think I will stfu for a while.

 

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16 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I can’t add anything about Taena. I didn’t pay close attention to that character.

The rest of this post is me yammering about various ideas not directed at you particular. Thanks btw for being easy with me.

It may not be explicitly stated but it appears that Shae did have opportunity to have her fingers on Sansa’s hair net. Most likely, an irrelevant piece of trivia that means nothing.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII         Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together.  <snip>  . Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

 

 

That wedding chalice is rather large, three feet tall.

A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV      Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

 

 

 

As to the wine that @John Suburbs mentions, it does change colors.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "Let the cups be filled!" Joffrey proclaimed, when the gods had been given their due. His cupbearer poured a whole flagon of dark Arbor red into the golden wedding chalice that Lord Tyrell had given him that morning. The king had to use both hands to lift it.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII       But suddenly he felt Ser Garlan's hand on his sleeve. "My lord, beware," the knight warned. "The king."     Tyrion turned in his seat. Joffrey was almost upon him, red-faced and staggering, wine slopping over the rim of the great golden wedding chalice he carried in both hands. "Your Grace," was all he had time to say before the king upended the chalice over his head. The wine washed down over his face in a red torrent.

 

Trivia information below.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII       "Bend down and pick up my chalice." Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. "Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?" He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. "Good, now fill it with wine." He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. "No, on your knees, dwarf." Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. "You can get up now, Uncle."

 

 

 

The chalice is placed upon the table, the King & his bride go off to cut the pie and after the whoopla return to the chalice.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "The king's chalice was on the table where he'd left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

 

The wine was red when Joffrey doused Tyrion.  When Joff ^ came back to his chalice after cutting the ceremonial pie he took  a long drink from his chalice ^.  The wine runs purple down his chin ^.     Joff starts talking and eating Tyrion’s pie. Then Joff starts coughing.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      "My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. "It's ill luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. "Dry, though. Needs washing down." Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. "I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want . . ." His words broke up in a fit of coughing.

 

 

The above is not the reaction Cressen experienced. What I just realized is Cressen had a regular size cup while Joff had a three foot chalice. The poison would have been diluted by volume but still as deadly.

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII      Margaery looked at him with concern. "Your Grace?"

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . ." The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais. <snip>  Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone.

 

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII     The boy's only thirteen. Joffrey was making a dry clacking noise, trying to speak. His eyes bulged white with terror, and he lifted a hand . . .  <snip>  . But his eyes fell on the wedding chalice, forgotten on the floor. He [Tyrion] went and scooped it up. There was still a half-inch of deep purple wine in the bottom of it. Tyrion considered it a moment, then poured it on the floor.

 

 

I don’t remember if it is said that Joff’s face turned purple. Tyrion did say about Joff, “Beneath the skin, the muscles stood out hard as stone” and Cressen did say, “it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist.”

A Clash of Kings - Prologue      Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food.

 

 

Now that I have had my ahha!  moment that Cressen had a regular size cup whereas Joffrey had a three foot tall chalice I think I will stfu for a while.

 

I give up it was the wine. Shit plot, shit books.

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2 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

You think he even knows Joffrey is made older in the show?

Not getting into the rest of this ridiculous argument about whether when GRRM explicitly talks about the books in an interview about the show it counts as talking about the books, but…

Of course GRRM knows that Joffrey is older in the show. He was part of the decision to age up the child characters by two years, he wrote episodes for those characters, and he got asked about it countless times in interviews and at conventions and so on. For just one of many examples, at a book signing in Burlington, MA, he was asked why all of the characters are aged up in the show:

Quote

The prime reason was Dany, since it was felt they couldn't show a thirteen year old girl going through what she goes through. Real medieval culture had no adolescence so he goes with that in the books. Modern society doesn't go with that, so while a married thirteen year old having sex is fine in a book, but moving to tv would necessitate either removal of sex scenes or aging her. In the UK an adult actor can't portray an underage character in sexual situations legally. So by upping her age they ended up upping other kids' ages.

The other factor being that casting child actors is harder than casting teenage and young adult actors. Kid actors recite words but don't act much or else try overact and overemote.

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18 minutes ago, falcotron said:

Not getting into the rest of this ridiculous argument about whether when GRRM explicitly talks about the books in an interview about the show it counts as talking about the books, but…

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-on-who-killed-joffrey-20140414

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

 

I’m a bit wary of written interviews. I would rather hear Martin speak the words. I have a couple nitpicks about the above statement. One is that he may have more surprises to reveal. The other is the remark about what conclusion the careful reader draws. That is not a confirmation of anything, in my opinion.

If you or anyone would/could provide a link to the entire interview I would appreciate it. Thanks.

And if you or anyone could supply an interpreter to Martin's ambiguous remarks I would be grateful.

 

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18 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

I proposed Mace to be contrarian, and also where, surely Mace would be seriously involved in any dynastic Tyrell bits. And, contrary to my prior post, surely showOleanna (ie Emma Peal) is worth some consideration... :)

Well, Mace does have to be involved, if for no other reason than he has to do all the official handshakes and signatures and so on. And I don't think he's as much of an oaf as his mom makes him out to be. But I do think he could be easily swayed with fancy titles and other empty shows of respect instead of by actual power or other concrete advantages, at least by someone like Tywin.

As for Olenna, Desmera is just as much her granddaughter as Margy is, and she's a Redwyne, and I think Olenna even says something about how the girl got all the smarts Paxter had to give in that family, so I think she'd be happy.

Meanwhile, I think I gave Mrs. Peel enough consideration as a teenager. Between her and a few of the Doctor Who companions, I was very disappointed the first time I went to London and realized that not every woman there is a hacker genius/martial artist/wine expert/history nerd and also incredibly sexy and usually wearing a catsuit.

18 hours ago, Wild Bill said:

Geographically, Hamburg clearly = Meeren.

The only one-to-one identification I'm sure about besides KL=London is Qohor=Stuttgart. They're both at the end of a branch off the continent's main river, and sit right next to its most famous forest. Qohor is famous for weapons and armor smithing, like the Swabian kingdoms were during the 30 Years War. They both make wine in the middle of the city that the rest of the world has no interest in it. And they both sacrifice their firstborn children to a Lovecraftian monster god in their quest to make the fastest sports cars in the world.

But even there, it's hard to find any connection between their respective most famous citizens. I mean, we don't know for a fact that Schiller never ate anyone the way Vargo Hoat did, but I think it's a pretty good guess that he didn't.

 

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4 hours ago, falcotron said:

blah, blah, blah...

I don't think anyone can argue (amongst straight males of a certain age...) about Emma Peel in a catsuit. And, certainly, her driving a Lotus Europa... oops that is Tara King, maybe representing Maegory. Though, Honor Blackman (Cercei?) might take issue with the whole bit. And we certainly don;t want to get into the The New Avengers, which sadly presages bad aspects of the GoT show, in the later years...

Blather, John Steed, Tyrion?...

blah, blah, blah...

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5 hours ago, falcotron said:

Well, Mace does have to be involved, if for no other reason than he has to do all the official handshakes and signatures and so on. And I don't think he's as much of an oaf as his mom makes him out to be. But I do think he could be easily swayed with fancy titles and other empty shows of respect instead of by actual power or other concrete advantages, at least by someone like Tywin.

As for Olenna, Desmera is just as much her granddaughter as Margy is, and she's a Redwyne, and I think Olenna even says something about how the girl got all the smarts Paxter had to give in that family, so I think she'd be happy.

Meanwhile, I think I gave Mrs. Peel enough consideration as a teenager. Between her and a few of the Doctor Who companions, I was very disappointed the first time I went to London and realized that not every woman there is a hacker genius/martial artist/wine expert/history nerd and also incredibly sexy and usually wearing a catsuit.

The only one-to-one identification I'm sure about besides KL=London is Qohor=Stuttgart. They're both at the end of a branch off the continent's main river, and sit right next to its most famous forest. Qohor is famous for weapons and armor smithing, like the Swabian kingdoms were during the 30 Years War. They both make wine in the middle of the city that the rest of the world has no interest in it. And they both sacrifice their firstborn children to a Lovecraftian monster god in their quest to make the fastest sports cars in the world.

But even there, it's hard to find any connection between their respective most famous citizens. I mean, we don't know for a fact that Schiller never ate anyone the way Vargo Hoat did, but I think it's a pretty good guess that he didn't.

 

OK, I see Mace as solely a figure-head, though I was proposing him more in a crack-pot mode, which does not work...

Desmera, assuming similar status as Maegory, does not seem to express any amibition, and therefor, might be out of bounds...

And... I belatedly realize that Emma Peel's husband is lost in the Amazon (Meeren?) Bother...

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14 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

And, certainly, her driving a Lotus Europa... oops that is Tara King, maybe representing Maegory.

Now I understand everything. You're one of those viewers who thinks Tara King only got the job because she was Martin King's daughter. That's why you think Mace is being the whole Margy thing. But Martin was useless. Cathy did the David Keel lines, and fight scenes, better than him, and by the time Lady Olenna took over, everyone already knew they didn't have any use for a Keel/King/Mace character, which is probably why she's always calling Mace an oaf.

Plus, there's nothing in the canon, even including the iOS app that GRRM didn't write, that says Tara King is Martin King's daughter in the first place. And this isn't like the Strongs in the Golden Company, because what would a Martin King relationship bring to the story of fAegon's administration in Westeros?

Also, Emma's Elan >> Tara's Europa, but I don't want to continue to objectify Lotuses like that. So, since since you brought up The New Avengers, Joanna Lumley's Midget, MGB, TR7, and whatever that bike was that looked like a Honda CR250 but wasn't were all pretty nice too. Really, anything is better than Uma Thurman's extended K Jag.

Also also, I think Emma Peel in her goth dominatrix outfit from A Touch of Brimstone could argue with Emma Peel in her catsuit, especially with that "I know this is ridiculous, but I'm pulling it off anyway" smirk when Steed sees her.

 

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1 hour ago, falcotron said:

yNow I understand everything. You're one of those viewers who thinks Tara King only got the job because she was Martin King's daughter. That's why you think Mace is being the whole Margy thing. But Martin was useless. Cathy did the David Keel lines, and fight scenes, better than him, and by the time Lady Olenna took over, everyone already knew they didn't have any use for a Keel/King/Mace character, which is probably why she's always calling Mace an oaf.

Plus, there's nothing in the canon, even including the iOS app that GRRM didn't write, that says Tara King is Martin King's daughter in the first place. And this isn't like the Strongs in the Golden Company, because what would a Martin King relationship bring to the story of fAegon's administration in Westeros?

Also, Emma's Elan >> Tara's Europa, but I don't want to continue to objectify Lotuses like that. So, since since you brought up The New Avengers, Joanna Lumley's Midget, MGB, TR7, and whatever that bike was that looked like a Honda CR250 but wasn't were all pretty nice too. Really, anything is better than Uma Thurman's extended K Jag.

Also also, I think Emma Peel in her goth dominatrix outfit from A Touch of Brimstone could argue with Emma Peel in her catsuit, especially with that "I know this is ridiculous, but I'm pulling it off anyway" smirk when Steed sees her.

 

Once again, I've somehow lost a post, so I must improvise something.

I don't wish to bring up R'hillor and the various bits surrounding him/it/her/somethingelse but, since you brought it up, and the comparison to British Leyland, and more importantly, Lucas, - the Prince of Darkness - is very interesting. And, shock!, is there a Lucas -> to Loras bit here? I know, casual vowel substitution, but still?

Then, I to, get a dominatrix vibe from Dany - is there something with Lady Olenna that foretells some future result? Not directly of course, since they are in different continents, but still...

[btw, I would be happy to objectify MGB's, TR6's, Spitfires, and Triumph Stags, assuming... that they would run.]

edit: minor grammatical bits and references to MGB-GT, MGB Midgets, Austin Healy anything, and particularly references to the Mini-Cooper....

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if Marge had died at the Purple Wedding, The Tyrells would have been Fd. Would they expose any potential involvement by LF for some reason? Maybe, maybe not.

Sansa still would be where she is and the trial of Tyrion would have been about the same but the Dornish would have had a massive uptick in power as Myrcella would have been wedded and bedded by Trystane as soon as she was flowered I am sure.

Tommen would be King but a new alliance would be necessary for Tywin and the Lannisters.

Tywin dying would have really made things interesting as the Tyrells would have maybe declared independence, went home or even led a coup and took the KL from the Lannisters after Tywin's death.

As for a marriage alliance for Tommen, Shireen, depending on the timeline would have been mentioned, maybe, cough, cough, one of Walder Frey's daughters or grandaughters.

Cersei would have not gone though all that she did with the Faith/High sparrow/walk of shame etc. Who knows what her mental state would have been.

The truth is that in the books, the Tyrells basically saved The Lannisters collective asses and their alliance bascially led to Roose Bolton turning against Robb as they all knew, eventually the Westerlands and Reach armies would be headed for the Riverlands where Robb was essentually trapped South of the Twins. The Tyrell/Lannister alliance and their surprise victory at the Blackwater over True King Stannis changed everything.

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17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And yet Tyrion pours the wine into the chalice to begin with and makes no note of this unusual color, nor any other deep purple wines at the feast or in his long history of drinking wine.

And what colour were the wines that you have drunk? I'd happily go with "deep purple" for quite a few of them. As does this chart: http://winefolly.com/review/complete-wine-color-chart/

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know what other people are seeing. Joffrey has the cup to his lips and Tyrion is standing right in front of him looking up from below.

He notes that it is deep purple. If that looked normal, and the same color as when he first filled the chalice, he would just see a half-inch of wine.

Let's take a look at the quote about the colours that Clegane's Pup kindly collected:

  • original wine - dark Arbor red
  • poured over Tyrion  - red
  • on Joff's chin - purple
  • spilt on the dais - dark red
  • the remains in the chalice - deep purple

So, before the poisoning, we get the description of both dark red and red, and after the poisoning, we have dark red and (deep) purple used interchangeably because that's what they are - dark red is a more general term, deep purple a more precise one.

 

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As to the wine that @John Suburbs mentions, it does change colors.

Not really. It is not changing colours but descriptions, with emphasis ont he colour that ties it to the poison.

18 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

When you can provide some actual proof that lowborn, sweaty kitchen servants are wielding sharp knives right next to the glitterati of the realm, then we'll talk

When I find the part which says that Cersei personally picked all the staff, which is why Shae cannot go, I'll let you know. But, you know, that's how it was done at medieval feasts - you had reliable folks who cut the stuff for you, or you helped yourself with your own dagger.

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yet another claim with absolute no textual support. Everything that Tyrion sees, hears and even thinks is described moment-by-moment, but just because you need it to fit your theory you invent entire sequences of hidden action.

Really? (spoilered for length)

Spoiler

“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”
The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it.
Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair. All he needed now was for a dove to shit on him and his day would be complete. The wine had soaked through his doublet and smallclothes, and he could feel the wetness against his skin. He ought to change, but no one was permitted to leave the feast until the time came for the bedding ceremony. That was still a good twenty or thirty dishes off, he judged.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s Wail was not meant for slicing pies.”
“True.” Joffrey lifted his voice. “Ser Ilyn, your sword!”
From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King’s justice stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he’d lost his tongue. He would have been a different man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his back.
Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in the shape of a grinning skull.
Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?”
Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silverybright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s sword?”
I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.
Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily.
A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream.

Please, find me the part where the approach of the serving man is described. Absolutely no servants are mentioned, the pie is cut 
(which is after it is wheeled slowly), and then, suddenly, there is a serving man. Did he teleport himself in front of Tyrion somehow? Or do you propose that the whole time the big pie was being wheeled in, there were servant hovering with the plates in their hands before the guests? 

Uninportant bits of information are left out. They are so unimportant that you don't even notice they are not there because the narrative runs so smoothly without them. 

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

GR never said "intentionally". That is another invention on your part. And as I say above, this statement trumps all conclusions you hope to draw from that interview:

Because that's the whole part of the philosophical dilemma - intentional killing of Hitler with the knowledge what he would do, not an accidental death. 

17 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Gee, if everything about the Purple Wedding has been fully explained, I wonder what more surprises are waiting? 

See below.

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

It may not be explicitly stated but it appears that Shae did have opportunity to have her fingers on Sansa’s hair net. Most likely, an irrelevant piece of trivia that means nothing.

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII         Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together.  <snip>  . Shae had arranged her hair artfully in a delicate silver net winking with dark purple gemstones.

Yeah, Shae theoretically had a chance to remove a stone, too. Unfortunately, we don't have anything to link Shae to the Tyrells or LF or anyone else involved. Also, giving Sansa the hairnet so that Shae, who could have done so at any other occasion, could take a stone... I don't know, I don't see how this might fit with anything.

 

16 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Now that I have had my ahha!  moment that Cressen had a regular size cup whereas Joffrey had a three foot tall chalice I think I will stfu for a while.

Yep :-)

16 hours ago, Tygett Greenshield said:

I give up it was the wine. Shit plot, shit books.

Well, sorry you're so disappointed. But, kudos for being able to concede, not many people are able to, or willing.

15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

And if you or anyone could supply an interpreter to Martin's ambiguous remarks I would be grateful.

Well, I'll give it a try: GRRM says that the careful reader will draw the conclusion that Olenna was the poisoner. However, a really careful reader notices that Olenna is described as notably short, and Joffrey's chalice is placed so far on the table that Tyrion has to climb on his seat to reach it. So, a very tall chalice rather far from the edge of the table - could Olenna slip the poison in it on her own? I believe that the mystery GRRM has in his sleeve is who Olenna passed the poison to. The persons seated next to Tyrion were Garlan and his wife Leonette, so we could have a generally likeable character doing a nasty deed. A third suspect is Butterbumps, who was freely moving around the hall without anyone paying much attention to him and who would have been to toss the crystal into the chalice. There have been several rounds of this debate on the forums, with Garlan and Butterbumps as the main favourites. I propose Leonette because a pregnant sweet wife seems to get off the hook too easily, though I also perceive the other two as more likely. Garlan also offers greatest narrative payback - he seems such a decent, caring guy. I can totally see him do it for his sister's sake but I'd hate it to be him :-(

 

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Well, sorry you're so disappointed. But, kudos for being able to concede, not many people are able to, or willing.

Well, I'll give it a try: GRRM says that the careful reader will draw the conclusion that Olenna was the poisoner. However, a really careful reader notices that Olenna is described as notably short, and Joffrey's chalice is placed so far on the table that Tyrion has to climb on his seat to reach it. So, a very tall chalice rather far from the edge of the table - could Olenna slip the poison in it on her own? I believe that the mystery GRRM has in his sleeve is who Olenna passed the poison to. The persons seated next to Tyrion were Garlan and his wife Leonette, so we could have a generally likeable character doing a nasty deed. A third suspect is Butterbumps, who was freely moving around the hall without anyone paying much attention to him and who would have been to toss the crystal into the chalice. There have been several rounds of this debate on the forums, with Garlan and Butterbumps as the main favourites. I propose Leonette because a pregnant sweet wife seems to get off the hook too easily, though I also perceive the other two as more likely. Garlan also offers greatest narrative payback - he seems such a decent, caring guy. I can totally see him do it for his sister's sake but I'd hate it to be him :-(

I'm not really disappointed, but I think Baelish trying to murder Tyrion but killing Joffrey instead would be a better story. And I still don't think Olenna had better options to acquire strangler.

I heard Olenna used to play basketball, she used to be the best player in SWBA for 3 seasons (South Westerosi Basketball Association). I bet she could still hit some three pointers.

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