The Transporter

Effective Leadership

22 posts in this topic

Listed below are what I consider to be the best examples of capable leadership within the novels.

  1. Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  2. Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  3. Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  4. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  5. Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)

 

 

 

 

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Good list, but I'm not sure about Aenar. I mean all he did was move. Seems like the odd man out.

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I don't really agree with the Daenerys one. Going through the Red Waste was a horrible decision. Sure, it worked out okay (though it almost ended far worse), but that doesn't mean it was a good decision, nor that it was proof of Daenerys's capable leadership. She should've made a better decision, but instead she decided to follow the pretty comet. Though, to be fair, she wasn't in a great position, and she didn't have any truly good decisions she could've made. I... suppose you could say that she made the best of a bad situation (which is a very good thing for a leader to be able to do), but I don't know that she really made the best decision, regardless of how well it turned out.

It's kind of like if I jumped off of a cliff, somehow landed on something soft, and found a diamond. Sure, great, it worked out, but jumping off of that cliff is still not something to be lauded.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

I don't really agree with the Daenerys one. Going through the Red Waste was a horrible decision. Sure, it worked out okay (though it almost ended far worse), but that doesn't mean it was a good decision, nor that it was proof of Daenerys's capable leadership. She should've made a better decision, but instead she decided to follow the pretty comet. Though, to be fair, she wasn't in a great position, and she didn't have any truly good decisions she could've made. I... suppose you could say that she made the best of a bad situation (which is a very good thing for a leader to be able to do), but I don't know that she really made the best decision, regardless of how well it turned out.

It's kind of like if I jumped off of a cliff, somehow landed on something soft, and found a diamond. Sure, great, it worked out, but jumping off of that cliff is still not something to be lauded.

Going through the red waste was the only good decision that was available to her. It was either that, or go one of the other ways and risk getting killed or enslaved. It's not a decision she made impulsively (Jorah insists on it). Also, she follows the red comet because there's nothing else to do. And the Dothraki are superstitious, so following the comet keep their hope and faith intact (the reason for her vocal insistence on following the comet). In the end, it turns out to be the right decision. Whether it was coincidence or not depends. The red comet obviously has magical connotations in the books. And it was the bloodrider that followed the comet who finds Quarth, Dany's destination after that dead city. I wouldn't say Dany's decision in this regard is like jumping off a cliff. She faced an impossible situation and did the best she could. If she had jumped off a cliff, she would have abandoned the remains of Drogo's khalasar and sailed off to Asshai with Jorah. She doesn't do that. She stays with the elderly and the sick and leads them to safety. She's a bit like Nymeria (the Rhoynar queen) in this regard. 

Edited by Ghost+Nymeria4Eva

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Posted (edited)

On 10/7/2017 at 10:34 PM, The Transporter said:

Listed below are what I consider to be the best examples of capable leadership within the novels.

  1. Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  2. Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  3. Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  4. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  5. Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)

 

 

 

 

That was awesome accomplishment.  She had to be strong for all of them.  Her khalasar was small, with women and old men among the ranks.  She got them through and into Vaes Toloro.  Dany is a natural leader and very good at it.

23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good list, but I'm not sure about Aenar. I mean all he did was move. Seems like the odd man out.

I can agree with you a little bit.  To his credit, Aenar set aside his pride and must have taken financial loses when he sold his considerable holdings back home in Valyria.  He was ridiculed back home and yet he remained steadfast and moved his House to a backwards outpost.  I predict the same situation will face the lords of Westeros during the long night and those who swallow their pride and migrate to safety will survive and inherit what's left when winter finally ends, just like the Targaryens inherited the world after the Doom.

Edited by 300 H&H Magnum

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On 10/7/2017 at 10:34 PM, The Transporter said:

Listed below are what I consider to be the best examples of capable leadership within the novels.

  1. Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  2. Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  3. Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  4. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  5. Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)

 

 

 

 

6 - Dany planning and leading the rescue of the eunuch slave soldiers from their oppressors in Astapor.

7 - Walder Frey's leadership helped his house recover from the political mess left behind by his father's association with the Butterwells.  He made his family even more wealthy with his good business skills.

8 - Barristan in Mereen.  He took over the government and organized the city for battle.

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On 10/21/2017 at 0:46 AM, Agent Orange said:

6 - Dany planning and leading the rescue of the eunuch slave soldiers from their oppressors in Astapor.

7 - Walder Frey's leadership helped his house recover from the political mess left behind by his father's association with the Butterwells.  He made his family even more wealthy with his good business skills.

I just hope someone capable can take over when old Walder dies.  I don't want to see them lose their bridge. 

On 10/21/2017 at 0:46 AM, Agent Orange said:

8 - Barristan in Mereen.  He took over the government and organized the city for battle.

Edited by The Transporter

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On 10/7/2017 at 7:34 PM, The Transporter said:

Listed below are what I consider to be the best examples of capable leadership within the novels.

  1. Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  2. Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  3. Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  4. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  5. Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)

6: Breaking the siege of and retaking riverrun and Defeating the westerland army and pillaging the countryside (Robb Stark)

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2. Setting the Westerlands to rights and reestablishing strong Lannister rule there for all to see. Which helped land him the position of Hand of the King. With his first term as Hand of the King Westeros was not only peaceful, for the most part, but prosperous under his leadership. So much so that many believed the man defecated currency.

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On 08/10/2017 at 3:34 AM, The Transporter said:

 

  1. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)

Did he do that great of a job?

"And King's Landing is not, as we both know perfectly well. While Father plays lion and fawn with the Stark boy, Renly marches up the roseroad. He could be at our gates any day now!"
"The city will not fall in a day. 
 
It seems after all his work King Landing is no more secure than it was the day he got there when it should have been able to hold out for more than a day.
 
He does little to defend the walls or improve the defences of Kings Landing, instead focusing on the water despite Renly having no actual Navy
 
Another smith spoke up. "Her Grace commanded us to make chainmail and armor, swords and daggers and axes, all in great numbers. For arming her new gold cloaks, m'lord."
"That work can wait," Tyrion said. "The chain first."
 
And his leadership style is not to work with people. but to play games with them and work against them. They are some of the best chapters of the series, were he is working against the current Regent and King, as well as the smallfolk, expect Varys who he seems to trust the most,  and removing people he thinks loyal to Cersei. 
 
He did a good job, like Stannis defending Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion, bit I would hardly call it one of the five best leadership displays in the (known) history of Westeros. 

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On 08.10.2017 at 7:34 AM, The Transporter said:
  • Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  • Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  • Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  • Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  • Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)

 

And all these people are Targaryen.

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12 minutes ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

 

And all these people are Targaryen.

Moral of entire series: blood is all that matters.

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On 08/10/2017 at 3:34 AM, The Transporter said:

Listed below are what I consider to be the best examples of capable leadership within the novels.

  1. Formation of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros.  (Aegon Targaryen)
  2. Unification of the wildlings under one king.  (Mance Rayder)
  3. Successfully leading the khalasar through the Red Waste.  (Daenerys Targaryen)
  4. Defending King's Landing against Stannis.  (Tyrion Lannister)
  5. Relocating the Targaryen family from Valyria to Dragonstone.  (Aenar Targaryen)
1

1. He united the kingdoms, yes, but he had dragons so, I'm not all that impressed. I would say someone like Torrhen Stark was a more effective leader because he knew when he was beaten and knelt rather than risk damage done to the North and his people, despite his half-brother bellyaching for battle. Same for those who had the sense to treat with Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys rather than fight them. I also think that the Dornish showed some outstandingly good tactics in being able to render the dragons pretty useless.

2. Yes, this is a genuinely good act of leadership. Keeping wildlings is a difficult feat. The only thing that was difficult for him was the lack of discipline among the free folk, which makes them unruly subjects.

3. Daenerys's choice to go that way wasn't a good idea - so I don't give her points on that front, personally. She was super lucky. Still, she did it and got through it so that took some good leadership. She could have done a lot worse but a lot of Daenerys's story is the tale of how not to be an effective diplomat. One thing I will give her credit for is that she tries her best and does at least listen to other people -- though she runs the risk of doing what Aegon did and over-rely on dragons.

4. Tyrion was a surprisingly good rallier of troops in the midst of battle but ultimately it was a group effort that saved KL. They were within an inch of losing had it not been for Tywin and the Tyrell forces. Yet, yes I will give you this -- Tyrion was good in the field.

5. Um, I guess? It was more his daughter's dreams/visions that made him do it, though. I wouldn't call it "leadership" - more of a good call.
 

Edited by Faera

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4 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Moral of entire series: blood is all that matters.

 

If Targaryens are only dragonriders and Blackwood blood brings warging ability then yes.

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4 hours ago, Faera said:

5. Um, I guess? It was more his daughter's dreams/visions that made him do it, though. I wouldn't call it "leadership" - more of a good call.

 Nymeria is better than Aenar.

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On 10/21/2017 at 0:46 AM, Agent Orange said:

6 - Dany planning and leading the rescue of the eunuch slave soldiers from their oppressors in Astapor.

7 - Walder Frey's leadership helped his house recover from the political mess left behind by his father's association with the Butterwells.  He made his family even more wealthy with his good business skills.

8 - Barristan in Mereen.  He took over the government and organized the city for battle.

Nice examples.  I might also add Nymeria leading her ships to what is now Dorne, Drogo building his great khalasar, Dany making the right call to send Belwas to fight Oznak Zo Phal instead of Jorah and Selmy, and Aegon leading the Gc to attack Westeros.  The last may prove a mistake before long but it shows a young man knowing how to lead even if it is a suicide mission.

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On 10/29/2017 at 9:09 AM, Faera said:

1. He united the kingdoms, yes, but he had dragons so, I'm not all that impressed. I would say someone like Torrhen Stark was a more effective leader because he knew when he was beaten and knelt rather than risk damage done to the North and his people, despite his half-brother bellyaching for battle. Same for those who had the sense to treat with Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys rather than fight them. I also think that the Dornish showed some outstandingly good tactics in being able to render the dragons pretty useless.

I will agree that Torrhen was smart enough to kneel to a superior general and a superior mind.  Aegon is a great man with dragons.  Blood of the ancient dragonlords.  He was the better man and Torrhen was at least sensible enough to realize that he was outclassed.  That Stark with the weirwood arrows was not so much. 

2. Yes, this is a genuinely good act of leadership. Keeping wildlings is a difficult feat. The only thing that was difficult for him was the lack of discipline among the free folk, which makes them unruly subjects.

3. Daenerys's choice to go that way wasn't a good idea - so I don't give her points on that front, personally. She was super lucky. Still, she did it and got through it so that took some good leadership. She could have done a lot worse but a lot of Daenerys's story is the tale of how not to be an effective diplomat. One thing I will give her credit for is that she tries her best and does at least listen to other people -- though she runs the risk of doing what Aegon did and over-rely on dragons.

That was a smart move actually.  It demonstrated her strength and resolve.  Wise move to send her riders to scout.  It led her to Vaes Tolorro and onto Qarth where she bested the warlocks.  She is the best leader out of the young ones.  A lot better than the likes of Robb, Jon, and Joffrey. 

4. Tyrion was a surprisingly good rallier of troops in the midst of battle but ultimately it was a group effort that saved KL. They were within an inch of losing had it not been for Tywin and the Tyrell forces. Yet, yes I will give you this -- Tyrion was good in the field.

5. Um, I guess? It was more his daughter's dreams/visions that made him do it, though. I wouldn't call it "leadership" - more of a good call.

I can see we are coming from two different points of view here.  I am very biased towards loving the Targaryens because I am a fan of Dany.  You seem biased towards the Starks, which is a family that I don't like in the least.  Oh well.  It takes all kinds of opinions to make up the forum

 


 

 

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On 10/29/2017 at 8:19 AM, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

 

And all these people are Targaryen.

Not Mance.  That oathbreaking fool is not a Targaryen.  Tyrion is a possible Targ. 

 

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On 10/7/2017 at 11:55 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Good list, but I'm not sure about Aenar. I mean all he did was move. Seems like the odd man out.

He was focused enough to ignore the opinions of the 39 other Dragonlords.  They thought him a coward.  Yet he stuck to his beliefs and took his family to the safety of a desolate outpost on the edge of a backwards continent. 

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