Wun Wun's response to "For The Watch"

[Leo of House Cartel]

The giant and Jon seem pretty tight, considering the wildling friendly Lord Commander gave Wun Wun the sanctuary of Castle Black, provided him with beer and vegetables, and went to the trouble of learning a bit of the old tongue.

Having already been enraged by Ser Patrek, how will Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun react to Jon's assasination? 

Will the conspirators or the Queen's Men be able to stop him?

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The giant and Jon seem pretty tight, considering the wildling friendly Lord Commander gave Wun Wun the sanctuary of Castle Black, provided him with beer and vegetables, and went to the trouble of learning a bit of the old tongue.

Having already been enraged by Ser Patrek, how will Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun react to Jon's assasination? 

Will the conspirators or the Queen's Men be able to stop him?

No. It will be a bloodbath, and the conspirators' days are numbered. Besides Leathers and Wun Wun, "men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men". And there are more arriving from other castles, Morna White Mask, Iron Emmett and the spearwives, and all are loyal to Jon. They'll be having pomegranate juice w/ their next meal.

 

 

[Faera]

7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The giant and Jon seem pretty tight, considering the wildling friendly Lord Commander gave Wun Wun the sanctuary of Castle Black, provided him with beer and vegetables, and went to the trouble of learning a bit of the old tongue.

Having already been enraged by Ser Patrek, how will Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun react to Jon's assasination? 

Will the conspirators or the Queen's Men be able to stop him?

Wun Wun will likely be smashing some more heads in, and Val and the rest of the wildlings still at the Wall will get stuck in, too. Melisandre and the remaining members of Stannis's party won't be happy about it, nor will the rest of the Night's Watchmen who didn't partake in the stabfest. Frankly, killing Jon, though an act of desperation, was about the stupidest thing Marsh and the rest of them could have done. It created a massive power vacuum at the Wall and surrounded them all with enemies who are going to seek swift justice.

Bottom line is - there are more people there loyal to Jon than not.

[Curled Finger]

Ah Leo, this is an interesting thing here with enraged Wun Wun in the throes of absolute chaos.   As our friend @kissdbyfire has offered, there are many factions at the Wall with many intentions and motives of their own.   They are bitter enemies with a very tentative alliance at the Wall.  Further, they are not just lined up Wildlings against Nights Watch; they have been at war among themselves on both sides.    The Nights Watch has to deal with Marsh and his gang.   We've already seen a vicious mutiny among the brothers.   The Wildlings have no reason to love Melisandre or any of Stannis' people, much less the NW at large.

Wun Wun seems to be happy eating his veggies and doing the work of 10 men.    Stress seems here for a minute.    He's already torn Ser Patrick to pieces, so he's already really agitated.  I have to go a little outside general consensus here and wonder if Wun Wun will even register anything going on outside his current rage.  I'm thinking our beloved Wun Wun won't last a paragraph into our 1st look at the Wall in TWOW.   The Kings Men are itching for a fight.  The Nights Watch is depleted by Jon's various assignments to castles along the Wall.  Ser Patrick wasn't the only Kings Man who felt he had earned a debt of gratitude for his er, valor in battle.   He wanted Val.  Did he get her?   Is Val raped, dying or gravely injured off page?   Will the Wildlings kill Shireen or Melisandre?   Will the NW brothers take this opportunity to rid themselves of some guests they perceive to be dangerous?  

As @Faera illustrated, there will be a blood bath in the aftermath of the stabbing of the man who brought these people together.   However, I have to temper all my worst case scenarios with the reminder that we don't actually know what state Jon is in?    He's been stabbed multiple times and will definitely be out of commission for a bit, leaving a potential free for all in the wings.   If he turns out to be dead I expect the full on war at the Wall.    If he's only injured I expect some cooler heads will prevail and Marsh & Gang will be rounded up quickly.    There may be a power vacuum if someone doesn't step up immediately.   But I don't see anyone except Leathers stepping up for Wun Wun who has already broken faith by the savage killing of Ser Patrick.   

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. It will be a bloodbath, and the conspirators' days are numbered. Besides Leathers and Wun Wun, "men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men". And there are more arriving from other castles, Morna White Mask, Iron Emmett and the spearwives, and all are loyal to Jon. They'll be having pomegranate juice w/ their next meal.

 

 

Are there pomegranates? Don't think the food is that great.

[rotting sea cow]

9 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No. It will be a bloodbath, and the conspirators' days are numbered. Besides Leathers and Wun Wun, "men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen’s men". And there are more arriving from other castles, Morna White Mask, Iron Emmett and the spearwives, and all are loyal to Jon. They'll be having pomegranate juice w/ their next meal.

Leathers is probably dead. That's why Wun Wun went amok. BTW, I think Val escaped with "Monster" in advance.

Whilst calming Wun Wun will be a difficult task, the conspirators have also an extra card against the wildings: hostages.

Remember, children from the clan's chiefs were sent to Eastwatch and to the Shadow Tower. Whilst Mallister and Pyke are loyal and honorable in their own way, Cotter is trapped now at Harthome and Ser Glendon Hewett (a friend of Alliser Thorne) has the command. If Alliser indeed returned through Eastwatch and participated in Jon's assassination, there isn't much what the wildings can do.

 

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Are there pomegranates? Don't think the food is that great.

There's Bowen Marsh, aka the Old Pomegranate.

 

26 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Leathers is probably dead. That's why Wun Wun went amok. BTW, I think Val escaped with "Monster" in advance.

Very much doubt Leathers is dead. The guys who stabbed Jon are a mess... one is crying, the other is apologetic, etc. And as the text clearly states, men are pouring in from the surrounding buildings. The Shieldhall is one such, since Jon hears the commotion as he steps out, and in there the ratio was 5 of the FF for each black brother. 

26 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Whilst calming Wun Wun will be a difficult task, the conspirators have also an extra card against the wildings: hostages.

Remember, children from the clan's chiefs were sent to Eastwatch and to the Shadow Tower. Whilst Mallister and Pyke are loyal and honorable in their own way, Cotter is trapped now at Harthome and Ser Glendon Hewett (a friend of Alliser Thorne) has the command. If Alliser indeed returned through Eastwatch and participated in Jon's assassination, there isn't much what the wildings can do.

 

All the things you mention would only help the conspirators later on. Much later on in the case of help from the Shadow Tower and/or Eastwatch. The bloodbath will happen immediately, without any sort of delay. The FF and black brothers loyal to Jon will fall upon Marsh &a co without mercy, and it will not end well for the conspirators. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And there are more arriving from other castles, Morna White Mask, Iron Emmett and the spearwives, and all are loyal to Jon. They'll be having pomegranate juice w/ their next meal.

I hope you have the right of it. A guy named the Old Pomegranate kinda has to meet his end in a pulpy mess doesn't he? 

Hopefully Wun Wun twists his top off and drinks him like a bottle of that "Pom" stuff. 

I wonder when Morna and company are due back. If they are close enough they might even hear the giant's roars, which would no doubt hasten their approach. I understand the shieldhall is some distance from Wun Wun, Bowen and Jon, but I can't see how Wun Wun's howling won't be picked up by at least one of Tormunds crew.

10 hours ago, Faera said:

 Frankly, killing Jon, though an act of desperation, was about the stupidest thing Marsh and the rest of them could have done. It created a massive power vacuum at the Wall and surrounded them all with enemies who are going to seek swift justice.

Bottom line is - there are more people there loyal to Jon than not.

Great points all. 

It's interesting to note how Bowen may have just initiated a power vaccum by knocking off the LC, while Jon seemed to avoid such an outcome from the Free Folk when he killed Mance. We didn't hear of any battles for Rayder's former position, although the Free Folk were seperated into several different groups, so such events could certainly be taking place.

Of the Wildlings at the Wall, Tormund could be looked at as a de facto-King to his people, based on the fact that he calls more shots and has more influence with the general Wildling populace.

We can look at Val as the de-facto Queen beyond the Wall, again due to her influence, the way other Free Folk treat her, aswell as her familial connection to Mance's child.

Jon could almost be called the interim Hand of The King Beyond The Wall, as he aids Tormund and his people in a political sence. By the way he delivers that speech in the shieldhall, rousing the Free Folk into agreeing to fight for him, I imagine if Jon wanted to be King Beyond The Wall a great portion of the people might accept him.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have to go a little outside general consensus here and wonder if Wun Wun will even register anything going on outside his current rage.  I'm thinking our beloved Wun Wun won't last a paragraph into our 1st look at the Wall in TWOW.   The Kings Men are itching for a fight.  The Nights Watch is depleted by Jon's various assignments to castles along the Wall.  Ser Patrick wasn't the only Kings Man who felt he had earned a debt of gratitude for his er, valor in battle.   He wanted Val.  Did he get her?   Is Val raped, dying or gravely injured off page?   Will the Wildlings kill Shireen or Melisandre?   Will the NW brothers take this opportunity to rid themselves of some guests they perceive to be dangerous?  

There's a great chance you are correct my friend. Ever since i first noticed how Jon had pretty much signed up a freakin' giant to his cause I've had a bad feeling it will turn out to be too good to be true. What a powerful ally to have on the field, and all of humanity is better off having him on their side. There's something deviously poetic about the idea of the Watch getting a new ally who posseses super strength, only for that newcomer to be killed by men who are fighting for the same side.

That being said, the heavy snow on the ground and general weather conditions might make it hard for armoured Knights and thickly layered Crows to move around quickly in the immediate battle. Giants have those powerful legs and splayed feet, perfect for bounding through the snow - Wun Wun might actually have the speed advantage in this situation, and if that's the case then it's gonna take a lot to bring the big guy down.

Val might be key to this whole situation. If she has been harmed in any way then the Free Folk will probably take this matter even more personally than they no doubt will. If she is unharmed, what will her reaction be when she looks out the window and sees Ser Partek's corpse doing it's best impression of Sweetrobin's doll?

 

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I hope you have the right of it. A guy named the Old Pomegranate kinda has to meet his end in a pulpy mess doesn't he? 

Hopefully Wun Wun twists his top off and drinks him like a bottle of that "Pom" stuff. 

I wonder when Morna and company are due back. If they are close enough they might even hear the giant's roars, which would no doubt hasten their approach. I understand the shieldhall is some distance from Wun Wun, Bowen and Jon, but I can't see how Wun Wun's howling won't be picked up by at least one of Tormunds crew.

Great points all. 

It's interesting to note how Bowen may have just initiated a power vaccum by knocking off the LC, while Jon seemed to avoid such an outcome from the Free Folk when he killed Mance. We didn't hear of any battles for Rayder's former position, although the Free Folk were seperated into several different groups, so such events could certainly be taking place.

Of the Wildlings at the Wall, Tormund could be looked at as a de facto-King to his people, based on the fact that he calls more shots and has more influence with the general Wildling populace.

We can look at Val as the de-facto Queen beyond the Wall, again due to her influence, the way other Free Folk treat her, aswell as her familial connection to Mance's child.

Jon could almost be called the interim Hand of The King Beyond The Wall, as he aids Tormund and his people in a political sence. By the way he delivers that speech in the shieldhall, rousing the Free Folk into agreeing to fight for him, I imagine if Jon wanted to be King Beyond The Wall a great portion of the people might accept him.

There's a great chance you are correct my friend. Ever since i first noticed how Jon had pretty much signed up a freakin' giant to his cause I've had a bad feeling it will turn out to be too good to be true. What a powerful ally to have on the field, and all of humanity is better off having him on their side. There's something deviously poetic about the idea of the Watch getting a new ally who posseses super strength, only for that newcomer to be killed by men who are fighting for the same side.

That being said, the heavy snow on the ground and general weather conditions might make it hard for armoured Knights and thickly layered Crows to move around quickly in the immediate battle. Giants have those powerful legs and splayed feet, perfect for bounding through the snow - Wun Wun might actually have the speed advantage in this situation, and if that's the case then it's gonna take a lot to bring the big guy down.

Val might be key to this whole situation. If she has been harmed in any way then the Free Folk will probably take this matter even more personally than they no doubt will. If she is unharmed, what will her reaction be when she looks out the window and sees Ser Partek's corpse doing it's best impression of Sweetrobin's doll?

 

You know, Val as a sort of Queen of the Wildlings isn't a bad projection at all.   And she is mostly level headed, seeming to understand making hard compromise for the greater good.   I've read so much Val + Jon speculation it sort distracted me from her real talents.   She knows and is respected by these people.    Will she have the presence of mind to call for calm in the immediate aftermath of Jon's stabbing?   Why yes Ser, I believe she will.  Selyse has already given her all this power and legend with the Kings Men.   Because of the threats in the pink letter a force will have to be mustered to deal with Winterfell and Val has already shown that she can rally Wildlings to her cause.   Still I wonder how she will deal with the Red Witch who burned her trees, the Mustachioed Queen who gave her legitimacy and the Scarred Princess whom she considers unclean?   Hmmm, I may have just found the way Mel needs to burn Shireen.   

One thing is certain, if Wun Wun can recover his senses quickly he can survive--maybe even take some hostages of his own or at least tear off Bowen Marsh's head.  He's worth far more alive than dead at the Wall. 

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I hope you have the right of it. A guy named the Old Pomegranate kinda has to meet his end in a pulpy mess doesn't he? 

As do I!  But I do believe that's the most likely scenario.

And yes to the pulpy mess. a very loud and resounding YES! 

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hopefully Wun Wun twists his top off and drinks him like a bottle of that "Pom" stuff. 

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder when Morna and company are due back. If they are close enough they might even hear the giant's roars, which would no doubt hasten their approach. I understand the shieldhall is some distance from Wun Wun, Bowen and Jon, but I can't see how Wun Wun's howling won't be picked up by at least one of Tormunds crew.

Morna, I can't wait to see her again. She should have been at the meeting in the Shieldhall. After all, Jon called all leaders of the FF, and she's not only a leader but was given a castle as well. And right next to CB. There's even a chance she's there already. 

And I'm not so sure about the Shieldhall being far from Hardin's Tower b/c Jon hears the shouting as he steps out of the Shieldhall.

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Great points all. 

It's interesting to note how Bowen may have just initiated a power vaccum by knocking off the LC, while Jon seemed to avoid such an outcome from the Free Folk when he killed Mance. We didn't hear of any battles for Rayder's former position, although the Free Folk were seperated into several different groups, so such events could certainly be taking place.

Maybe, or maybe the wildlings take over. 

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Of the Wildlings at the Wall, Tormund could be looked at as a de facto-King to his people, based on the fact that he calls more shots and has more influence with the general Wildling populace.

We can look at Val as the de-facto Queen beyond the Wall, again due to her influence, the way other Free Folk treat her, aswell as her familial connection to Mance's child.

Jon could almost be called the interim Hand of The King Beyond The Wall, as he aids Tormund and his people in a political sence. By the way he delivers that speech in the shieldhall, rousing the Free Folk into agreeing to fight for him, I imagine if Jon wanted to be King Beyond The Wall a great portion of the people might accept him.

I think it's the other way around... Jon is the de facto king of the FF, Tormund is his hand. Jon will now become the King of Winter. 

4 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Val might be key to this whole situation. If she has been harmed in any way then the Free Folk will probably take this matter even more personally than they no doubt will. If she is unharmed, what will her reaction be when she looks out the window and sees Ser Partek's corpse doing it's best impression of Sweetrobin's doll?

 

I think she will, together w/ Morna and very likely Borroq will be important too. I don't think Val is hurt. Ser Patrek tried to steal her to show his worth but he never got past Wun Wun. 

[300 H&H Magnum]

17 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The giant and Jon seem pretty tight, considering the wildling friendly Lord Commander gave Wun Wun the sanctuary of Castle Black, provided him with beer and vegetables, and went to the trouble of learning a bit of the old tongue.

Having already been enraged by Ser Patrek, how will Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun react to Jon's assasination? 

Will the conspirators or the Queen's Men be able to stop him?

Wun doesn't care enough about Jon to start a fight with the NW.  Whatever triggered the fight with Patrek is not directly about Jon.  It's wishful thinking on the part of Jon's fans to think the giant would go out of his way to avenge the reasonable execution of a nutty lord commander.  Wun will be too busy trying to keep from losing his own life to worry about what happened to Jon. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

4 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Wun doesn't care enough about Jon to start a fight with the NW.  Whatever triggered the fight with Patrek is not directly about Jon.  It's wishful thinking on the part of Jon's fans to think the giant would go out of his way to avenge the reasonable execution of a nutty lord commander.  Wun will be too busy trying to keep from losing his own life to worry about what happened to Jon. 

I agree that Wun Wun is rather occupied at the moment, and a giant in the passionate throws of rage is too unpredictable for us readers to properly guess which way the wind will blow him.

I'm not sure if a giant would look at the betrayal as a "reasonable execution". Wun Wun probably does view Jon as a bit of a "nutty Lord Commander",  just on the basis of Snow's non Free Folk human culture being alien to the giant. That said, Jon has been pretty helpful to Wun Wun, feeding and watering him while also giving him sanctuary from the Others. Giants are clearly intelligent enough to comprehend such good treatment. When we first see Mag the Mighty he and Tormund are cracking jokes about Jon's "feminine" appearance. Lazy joke or no, a sence of humour is a sign of intelligence and abstract thought.

As Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun has been given the position of Val's protector, and Val clearly views Jon in a positive light, I think theres a great chance the beer loving giant will take offence to Jon's stabbing, if he notices that is. 

I'm not sure why he wouldn't notice Jon's betrayal, close as he is. He might even smell Jon's blood/death, if the the big man's constant sniffing and snuffling is anything to go by. While his main goal will be to protect himself, the sight of one of his few allies bleeding out on the ground has a great chance of enraging Wun Wun even more.

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know, Val as a sort of Queen of the Wildlings isn't a bad projection at all.   And she is mostly level headed, seeming to understand making hard compromise for the greater good.   I've read so much Val + Jon speculation it sort distracted me from her real talents.   She knows and is respected by these people.    Will she have the presence of mind to call for calm in the immediate aftermath of Jon's stabbing?   Why yes Ser, I believe she will.  Selyse has already given her all this power and legend with the Kings Men.   Because of the threats in the pink letter a force will have to be mustered to deal with Winterfell and Val has already shown that she can rally Wildlings to her cause.   Still I wonder how she will deal with the Red Witch who burned her trees, the Mustachioed Queen who gave her legitimacy and the Scarred Princess whom she considers unclean?   Hmmm, I may have just found the way Mel needs to burn Shireen.   

One thing is certain, if Wun Wun can recover his senses quickly he can survive--maybe even take some hostages of his own or at least tear off Bowen Marsh's head.  He's worth far more alive than dead at the Wall. 

Now I'm wondering if Val might attempt a coup of her own at Castle Black.

The harshness in her tone while discussing Shireen's condition was pretty unnerving. If Val really does see the girl's Greyscale as having the potential to wipe out everyone at Castle Black, quickening the Other's victory as it would, then one would think this would be playing on her mind constantly.

The mayhem unfolding could be the perfect distaction for Val and her Free Folk to take control of the Wall; if no one else is going to "prevent the grey scale from spreading", then Val might even feel it is her duty to take command and dispose of the child. Val simply making some kind of deal with Mel to get rid of Shireen could serve the same purpose

As a fan of Val, I'm not sure how I would feel about her burning Shireen, but such a controversial move from a pretty well respected character would no doubt make for wild reading!

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Morna, I can't wait to see her again. She should have been at the meeting in the Shieldhall. After all, Jon called all leaders of the FF, and she's not only a leader but was given a castle as well. And right next to CB. There's even a chance she's there already. 

The Arch Maester of the Old Gods! That mask is very jazzy, wearing weirwood so close to one's third eye does give the impression that she might have "visions" of her own. With all this trouble at Castle Black, the Old God's may have alerted this woman in the white mask to whats going on.

Such a high profile member of the community being absent from the shieldhall is puzzling. If she is already at Castle Black then I've gotta wonder if she is planning something big, away from any prying eyes.

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think it's the other way around... Jon is the de facto king of the FF, Tormund is his hand. Jon will now become the King of Winter. 

I do think this is the direction we are heading. The Lord Commander takes Mance's place, aswell as possibly the titles once held by Stannis and Robb Stark.

Tormund Tall Talker already has a crown anyway, and I can't see "The Mead King of Ruddy Hall" being too effective at the long term governing of his people 

8 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think she will, together w/ Morna and very likely Borroq will be important too. I don't think Val is hurt. Ser Patrek tried to steal her to show his worth but he never got past Wun Wun. 

Val, Morna, Borroq, Wun Wun and Leathers; the old ways are certainly returning. It's almost like Castle Black has went back in time by thousands of years. I think these Free Folk, each of whom probably wouldn't be out of place in the Dawn Era, will have a big hand in bringing forward more traditional Northern vaules to Jon and his allies. They will need that old school grit in the wars to come.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Val, Morna, Borroq, Wun Wun and Leathers; the old ways are certainly returning. It's almost like Castle Black has went back in time by thousands of years. I think these Free Folk, each of whom probably wouldn't be out of place in the Dawn Era, will have a big hand in bringing forward more traditional Northern vaules to Jon and his allies. They will need that old school grit in the wars to come.

Exactly that. Once the wildlings take over at CB, it will be the closest to what it used to be back when the first LN happened: "pure" First Men blood.

We even see through Jon's eyes how it's all changing already before the stabbing. 

ADwD, Jon XII

“That’s done, then,” Rory said when they were gone.
No, thought Jon Snow, it has only just begun.
Bowen Marsh was waiting for him south of the Wall, with a tablet full of numbers. “Three thousand one hundred and nineteen wildlings passed through the gate today,” the Lord Steward told him. “Sixty of your hostages were sent off to Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower after they’d been fed. Edd Tollett took six wagons of women back to Long Barrow. The rest remain with us.”
“Not for long,” Jon promised him. “Tormund means to lead his own folk to Oakenshield within a day or two. The rest will follow, as soon as we sort where to put them.”
“As you say, Lord Snow.” The words were stiff. The tone suggested that Bowen Marsh knew where he would put them.
The castle Jon returned to was far different from the one he’d left that morning. For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbered. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before. Strange voices echoed down the yards, and free folk were coming and going along icy paths that had only known the black boots of crows for years. Outside the old Flint Barracks, he came across a dozen men pelting one another with snow. Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.”

 

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly that. Once the wildlings take over at CB, it will be the closest to what it used to be back when the first LN happened: "pure" First Men blood.

We even see through Jon's eyes how it's all changing already before the stabbing. 

ADwD, Jon XII

“That’s done, then,” Rory said when they were gone.
No, thought Jon Snow, it has only just begun.
Bowen Marsh was waiting for him south of the Wall, with a tablet full of numbers. “Three thousand one hundred and nineteen wildlings passed through the gate today,” the Lord Steward told him. “Sixty of your hostages were sent off to Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower after they’d been fed. Edd Tollett took six wagons of women back to Long Barrow. The rest remain with us.”
“Not for long,” Jon promised him. “Tormund means to lead his own folk to Oakenshield within a day or two. The rest will follow, as soon as we sort where to put them.”
“As you say, Lord Snow.” The words were stiff. The tone suggested that Bowen Marsh knew where he would put them.
The castle Jon returned to was far different from the one he’d left that morning. For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbered. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before. Strange voices echoed down the yards, and free folk were coming and going along icy paths that had only known the black boots of crows for years. Outside the old Flint Barracks, he came across a dozen men pelting one another with snow. Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.”

That's a really nice quote isn't it? Very lush with imagery in regards to the cultural shift, my faviroute part has to be;

For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbered. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before.

How ominous is it that Jon would compare the dwindling Crows to ghosts, while also making a connection between the Free Folk and "shining lights"? 

The old school blood of the First Men beliefs seem to be dripping over into the rest of Westeros too 

• The Mountain Clans of The Vale are said to be getting bold, and might not want to stay in their barren hills when winter comes. We already have a contingent of them wreaking havoc in the Kingswood.
• The Mountain Clans of Norrey, Flint and such are already in the Central North, and each has a very traditional way of thinking. Considering there are multiple branches of House Flint, they could hold great power in the events of TWOW.
• The Skagosi could have reason to sail to the mainland, should they have developed some connection to Rickon. 
• The Weeper has passed The Wall, along with a crew of bloodthirsty raiders.
• Mance and his spearwives are already in Winterfell, who knows what influence they may hold over future events.
• The whole "North Remembers" way of thinking does seem to have emboldened certain Northerners. The Red Wedding was considered by many up North to be an infamous breech of sacred laws. It's almost like it spurred many towards a more Old Gods-centric way of thinking. How many Northerners will become more pious in their faith when Winter finally comes?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

And there's more going on with the old gods. Theon has started praying to them, Arya started identifying more with Ned's gods while she was in Harrenhal and so has Sansa if I'm not mistaken. Satin and Arron, two kids from the south took their NW vows in front of a heart tree, just as Sam had done before them. 

With regard to Wun Wun, I'm not sure he's registering anything in his anger. What I've been wondering is if the Norrey and the Flint will make common cause with the wildlings at Castle Black. I doubt they will take well to the stabbing of not just the Lord Commander, but also the son of Ned Stark. If those two have any sort of inkling about Robb's will, they will have a cow.

(I'm also worried some people will take advantage of the chaos and kill Satin. I'm worried about a lot of characters)

[LynnS]

Will Borroqbe  waiting in the lichyard for Jon?  I wonder how many would survive an attack by Borroq and his boar?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The skinchanger stopped ten yards away. His monster pawed at the mud, snuffling. A light powdering of snow covered the boar's humped black back. He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge. To either side of him, his men lowered their spears.

"Brother," Borroq said.

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

"You do that," Borroq said. "You close it good and tight. They're coming, crow." He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them. 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"It is those duties I would speak of." She made her way down, the hem of her scarlet skirts swishing over the steps. It almost seemed as if she floated. "Where is your direwolf?"

"Asleep in my chambers. Her Grace does not allow Ghost in her presence. She claims he scares the princess. And so long as Borroq and his boar are about, I dare not let him loose." The skinchanger was to accompany Soren Shieldbreaker to Stonedoor once the wayns carrying the Sealskinner's clan to Greenguard returned. Until such time, Borroq had taken up residence in one of the ancient tombs beside the castle lichyard. The company of men long dead seemed to suit him better than that of the living, and his boar seemed happy rooting amongst the graves, well away from other animals. "That thing is the size of a bull, with tusks as long as swords. Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting." 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"I summoned you to make plans for the relief of Hardhome," Jon Snow began. "Thousands of the free folk are gathered there, trapped and starving, and we have had reports of dead things in the wood." To his left he saw Marsh and Yarwyck. Othell was surrounded by his builders, whilst Bowen had Wick Whittlestick, Left Hand Lew, and Alf of Runnymudd beside him. To his right, Soren Shieldbreaker sat with his arms crossed against his chest. Farther back, Jon saw Gavin the Trader and Harle the Handsome whispering together. Ygon Oldfather sat amongst his wives, Howd Wanderer alone. Borroq leaned against a wall in a dark corner. Mercifully, his boar was nowhere in evidence. "The ships I sent to take off Mother Mole and her people have been wracked by storms. We must send what help we can by land or let them die." Two of Queen Selyse's knights had come as well, Jon saw. Ser Narbert and Ser Benethon stood near the door at the foot of the hall. But the rest of the queen's men were conspicuous in their absence. "I had hoped to lead the ranging myself and bring back as many of the free folk as could survive the journey." A flash of red in the back of the hall caught Jon's eye. Lady Melisandre had arrived. "But now I find I cannot go to Hardhome. The ranging will be led by Tormund Giantsbane, known to you all. I have promised him as many men as he requires."

"And where will you be, crow?" Borroq thundered. "Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?"

"No. I ride south." Then Jon read them the letter Ramsay Snow had written.

 

[Wolf of the Steppes]

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I agree that Wun Wun is rather occupied at the moment, and a giant in the passionate throws of rage is too unpredictable for us readers to properly guess which way the wind will blow him.

I'm not sure if a giant would look at the betrayal as a "reasonable execution". Wun Wun probably does view Jon as a bit of a "nutty Lord Commander",  just on the basis of Snow's non Free Folk human culture being alien to the giant. That said, Jon has been pretty helpful to Wun Wun, feeding and watering him while also giving him sanctuary from the Others. Giants are clearly intelligent enough to comprehend such good treatment. When we first see Mag the Mighty he and Tormund are cracking jokes about Jon's "feminine" appearance. Lazy joke or no, a sence of humour is a sign of intelligence and abstract thought.

As Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun has been given the position of Val's protector, and Val clearly views Jon in a positive light, I think theres a great chance the beer loving giant will take offence to Jon's stabbing, if he notices that is. 

I'm not sure why he wouldn't notice Jon's betrayal, close as he is. He might even smell Jon's blood/death, if the the big man's constant sniffing and snuffling is anything to go by. While his main goal will be to protect himself, the sight of one of his few allies bleeding out on the ground has a great chance of enraging Wun Wun even more.

I very much agree with this.  Definitely too unpredictable, but as you said, I think there's a great chance he will take offense to John's stabbing.

I know it's being really nitpicky, but it was wine, not beer. 

[kissdbyfire]

 

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That's a really nice quote isn't it? Very lush with imagery in regards to the cultural shift, my faviroute part has to be;

For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbered. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before.

 

Yes, absolutely! I love this passage, and the above part is my favourite as well.

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

How ominous is it that Jon would compare the dwindling Crows to ghosts, while also making a connection between the Free Folk and "shining lights"? 

Indeed. It doesn't get much clearer than that, does it?

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The old school blood of the First Men beliefs seem to be dripping over into the rest of Westeros too 

• The Mountain Clans of The Vale are said to be getting bold, and might not want to stay in their barren hills when winter comes. We already have a contingent of them wreaking havoc in the Kingswood.
• The Mountain Clans of Norrey, Flint and such are already in the Central North, and each has a very traditional way of thinking. Considering there are multiple branches of House Flint, they could hold great power in the events of TWOW.
• The Skagosi could have reason to sail to the mainland, should they have developed some connection to Rickon. 
• The Weeper has passed The Wall, along with a crew of bloodthirsty raiders.
• Mance and his spearwives are already in Winterfell, who knows what influence they may hold over future events.
• The whole "North Remembers" way of thinking does seem to have emboldened certain Northerners. The Red Wedding was considered by many up North to be an infamous breech of sacred laws. It's almost like it spurred many towards a more Old Gods-centric way of thinking. How many Northerners will become more pious in their faith when Winter finally comes?

Yeah, I agree. IRT the Skagosi, my pet theory is that they will come in force w/ Rickon, Shaggy, Osha and Davos. After all, we learn from both Cotter Pyke and Davos that there are ships stranded on Skagos and Skane. So, kind of perfect to carry an army. Right?

And preferably they'll bring their fierce unicorns w/ them!

4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

And there's more going on with the old gods. Theon has started praying to them, Arya started identifying more with Ned's gods while she was in Harrenhal and so has Sansa if I'm not mistaken. Satin and Arron, two kids from the south took their NW vows in front of a heart tree, just as Sam had done before them. 

With regard to Wun Wun, I'm not sure he's registering anything in his anger. What I've been wondering is if the Norrey and the Flint will make common cause with the wildlings at Castle Black. I doubt they will take well to the stabbing of not just the Lord Commander, but also the son of Ned Stark. If those two have any sort of inkling about Robb's will, they will have a cow.

(I'm also worried some people will take advantage of the chaos and kill Satin. I'm worried about a lot of characters)

Oh I don't think the Old Flint and Norrey will side w/ the conspirators at all. For the reasons you stated, and also the fact that they probably know more about Marsh. As in, enough to know he isn't LC material. After all, the previous LC was one of them, and if Mormont told Tyrion about Marsh I find it quite likely that he would have told his fellow northerners as well. 

(I'm also very worried about too many characters, and I especially want Satin, Leathers, Iron Emmett and Mully to make it!).

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Will Borroqbe  waiting in the lichyard for Jon?  I wonder how many would survive an attack by Borroq and his boar?

 

Yes, I think Borroq will have an important part to play helping Jon, his "brother" to learn how to master his skinchanging skills. Can't. Wait.

 

[Seams]

Skip this if you're not interested in some ideas about the symbolism of the giant. In my mind, the guesses about Wun Wun's likely response to the attack on Jon become more focused if we understand the layers of meaning the author has built up around giants.

Bowen Marsh said, "You have a great thirst for a small man."

"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."

Tyrion answered gently, "I've been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them." (AGoT, Tyrion III)

It's important to keep in mind that Tyrion was identified as a giant at the Wall. The author wants us to make a connection back to that feast scene when other giants show up in the story.

Consider, also, the similarity of the imagery in this scene of Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater with Jon at the Wall when the Free Folk attack:

Tyrion cursed and made for the steps with a rolling waddle. Podrick Payne waited below with their horses. They galloped off down River Row, Pod and Ser Mandon Moore coming hard behind him. . . . by the time they reached the King's Gate, he could hear a booming crash of wood on wood that told him the battering ram had been brought into play. The groaning of the great hinges sounded like the moans of a dying giant. The gatehouse square was littered with the wounded, but he saw lines of horses as well, not all of them hurt, and sellswords and gold cloaks enough to form a strong column. "Form up," he shouted as he leapt to the ground. The gate moved under the impact of another blow. "Who commands here? You're going out." (ACoK, Tyrion VIII)

 

In the excerpt from Tyrion's arc, the breaking hinges on the gate sound like a dying giant. So wait a minute, you're saying: Tyrion IS the giant, according to Maester Aemon, but he also witnesses a symbolic giant dying? At a hole in a "wall"? Yes. Exactly. It's no coincidence that Ser Mandon Moore is present when Tyrion remarks on the sound of the dying giant. Tyrion will soon suffer a symbolic death at that same battle, with Ser Mandon attacking him for no reason that the reader or Tyrion can pinpoint. But Tyrion is "reborn" when he emerges from his bandages in a cell in the Red Keep, losing his title (acting Hand of the King) but reinventing himself eventually as husband to Sansa, Master of Coin, accused kingslayer, fugitive, slave, etc.

 

Similar to the giant dying at the gate in Tyrion's POV, at the Wall, the giant Mag the Mighty enters the tunnel under the Wall at Castle Black, dying with Donal Noye's sword in his throat. Donal Noye dies in that same tunnel, but Jon Snow does not suffer a real or symbolic death at that point. (Although I haven't gone back to reread the scene - there may be a symbolic death for Jon that I don't remember or haven't noticed.) Like Tyrion, however, he is soon reborn under a new title as Lord Commander.

 

After a search on the word "giant" in Jon and Tyrion's POVs, I am persuaded by the evidence that Tormund Giantsbane IS the Horn of Joramun. In Tormund's company, Jon counts:

 

... giants emerging from the blowing snow and pale mists that swirled along the Milkwater. He was well beyond fifty when Tormund said something and he lost the count. There must be hundreds. No matter how many went past, they just seemed to keep coming. (ASoS, Jon II)

 

Tormund also nudges Jon Snow to go ahead and get physical with Ygritte, who we know is kissed by fire. I know people don't like anagrams, but I suspect there is some sophisticated wordplay around giants and Targaryens. Jon is discovering his inner Targaryen ("I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth") when he sees giants and when he kisses fire as eagerly as she kisses him. If you want to draw the logical conclusion that Tyrion must be a Targaryen, too, because he is identified as a giant, I won't argue with you. I think the giants are a symbol for Targaryens, and Jon meeting Tormund wakes the giants from the earth.

 

So what is Wun Wun's specific role, vis-a-vis Jon's "death"? I think the earlier deaths - the hinges on the gate at King's Landing and Mag the Mighty dying in the tunnel at Castle Black - symbolize that the hole between death and rebirth cannot be easily opened. We get some "only death can pay for life" action in the deaths of giants at both locations. But Wun Wun is already through the Wall, at Jon's invitation; he is already "born" below the Wall and he has guest right because Jon has provided food for him.

 

This isn't clear in my mind yet, but I wonder whether the slaying of Ser Patrek is equivalent to the slaying of Tywin by Tyrion. Ser Patrek is from King's Mountain in the Stormlands and he is loyal to Stannis and Selyse. King's Mountain could be one of those thinly-veiled GRRM "equivalents" where he wants us to associate one location with another - King's Landing is built on hills names for Aegon and his sisters, so King's Mountain could be a euphemism for the Red Keep. "Patrek" might be a variation on "pater," the Latin word for "father." It might be too much of a stretch, I admit. The connection between Tyrion and giants is already established, however, even if Patrek =/= Tywin.

 

In the short term, following Jon's death, I suspect that Wun Wun will pick up Jon's body and cradle it until it can be brought to safety - Tormund survived the ferocious snow storm by climbing into the belly of a giant and becoming Tormund the giant's babe; Cersei is picked up by the giant Ser Robert Strong at her rebirth after her walk of shame. She observes that she is picked up as easily as she lifted Joffrey when he was a babe. I admit, I'm not sure why a symbolic Targaryen would pick up Cersei to help her with her rebirth - maybe I'm wrong about the giants as symbolic Targaryens.

Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground, lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe. A giant, thought Cersei, dizzy, as he carried her with great strides toward the gatehouse. She had heard that giants could still be found in the godless wild beyond the Wall. That is just a tale. Am I dreaming?

No. Her savior was real. Eight feet tall or maybe taller, with legs as thick around as trees, he had a chest worthy of a plow horse and shoulders that would not disgrace an ox. His armor was plate steel, enameled white and bright as a maiden's hopes, and worn over gilded mail. A greathelm hid his face. From its crest streamed seven silken plumes in the rainbow colors of the Faith. A pair of golden seven-pointed stars clasped his billowing cloak at the shoulders.

A white cloak. (ADwD, Cersei II)

Of course, "Ser Robert" is also a symbolic King Robert. Maybe the giant Robert Strong is a symbolic Targaryen in the sense that King Robert inherited some Targaryen blood on his mother's side of the family.

 

So the giant becomes a symbolic mother for the "new born" character. Brienne is also a "giant," and she is associated with Jaime's redemption arc (teaming up with Podrick Payne, who is associated with Tyrion's death and rebirth at the Blackwater). I think Jaime has a symbolic rebirth when he and Brienne are in the hot bath together and she cradles his body after he faints from exhaustion and blood loss. Maybe Wun Wun's role in Jon's arc will involve some kind of quest on behalf of the hero, such as the one made by Brienne at Jaime's request, or the champion role for which Robert Strong has been created.

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Will Borroq be waiting in the lichyard for Jon?  I wonder how many would survive an attack by Borroq and his boar?

I wonder if he will. His Boar "rooting around the graves" certainly gave me pause, what's he looking for? That Borroq and his buddy decide to make their abode in an ancient tomb in also pretty conspicuous. Could they be recieving messages from the Old Gods?

The big wildling refers to Jon as "brother", an olive branch to a fellow skinchanger perhaps?

I'm not sure how one would even go about fighting a well muscled Boar of human height. Some kind of matadore scenario? Look at how well Robb and Grey Wind fought together against armoured knights, and that's whilst the direwolf was young and Stark was not directly warging him - imagine what a well seasoned skinchanger like Borroq might be able to do if he and his gargantuan Boar decide to join the fight.

5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

And there's more going on with the old gods. Theon has started praying to them, Arya started identifying more with Ned's gods while she was in Harrenhal and so has Sansa if I'm not mistaken. Satin and Arron, two kids from the south took their NW vows in front of a heart tree, just as Sam had done before them. 

With regard to Wun Wun, I'm not sure he's registering anything in his anger. What I've been wondering is if the Norrey and the Flint will make common cause with the wildlings at Castle Black. I doubt they will take well to the stabbing of not just the Lord Commander, but also the son of Ned Stark. If those two have any sort of inkling about Robb's will, they will have a cow.

(I'm also worried some people will take advantage of the chaos and kill Satin. I'm worried about a lot of characters)

I imagine the Flint and the Norrey considered Marsh and his cronies to be a bunch of cravenous southerners even before Jon's assasination. Betraying the son of "The Ned", bastard or no, will be viewed in a similiar light to the events of the Red Wedding.

Satin seems like a capable guy, hopefully he sruvives a while. One of Jon's main allies pretty much has to die in this situation don't they? 

57 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I very much agree with this.  Definitely too unpredictable, but as you said, I think there's a great chance he will take offense to John's stabbing.

I know it's being really nitpicky, but it was wine, not beer. 

What!? That southron milk!? 

Nitpicking is always welcome dude! I wonder if it's the mulled wine favoured by the Old Bear?

What's the stuff Jon drinks that feels like tendrills of fire creeping down his throat? I can't remember the circumtances, but I always took it to be some kind of "wildling whisky"?

43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah, I agree. IRT the Skagosi, my pet theory is that they will come in force w/ Rickon, Shaggy, Osha and Davos. After all, we learn from both Cotter Pyke and Davos that there are ships stranded on Skagos and Skane. So, kind of perfect to carry an army. Right?

And preferably they'll bring their fierce unicorns w/ them!

I don't know if this is wishful thinking on my part, but I reckon there's a chance Rickon will be seen as some kind of King like figure by the Skagosi.

He's been there for like a year, plenty of time for his powers to develop. If anything I reckon that living what might essentially be a wildling life would hasten Rickon's skinchanging ability - more time to run free.

It's fascinating to think how much more wolfish Rickon might be, due to spending so much time with his direwolf

His sibling have all undergone substantial development in their arcs, and while Rickon may still be a child, I imagine Osha will see he matures quickly, that's just how the Free Folk seem to raise there kids. 

Shaggy and Slick Rick always prefered a walk on the wild side, I imagine they will have taken to their new home quite well. We have already seen Shaggydog feasting on a beast, showing that there is at least some positivity to their current situation.

As to Skagos and Skane themselves, they could contain some real treats. If the Old Tongue is prevailent on these islands, then what other Old Northern things might we find? How about some Skanish Giants? 

Gotta get them Unicorns, Davos and Manderly's mission is pointless otherwise