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Wun Wun's response to "For The Watch"


Leo of House Cartel

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21 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I don't know if this is wishful thinking on my part, but I reckon there's a chance Rickon will be seen as some kind of King like figure by the Skagosi.

He's been there for like a year, plenty of time for his powers to develop. If anything I reckon that living what might essentially be a wildling life would hasten Rickon's skinchanging ability - more time to run free.

It's fascinating to think how much more wolfish Rickon might be, due to spending so much time with his direwolf

His sibling have all undergone substantial development in their arcs, and while Rickon may still be a child, I imagine Osha will see he matures quickly, that's just how the Free Folk seem to raise there kids. 

Shaggy and Slick Rick always prefered a walk on the wild side, I imagine they will have taken to their new home quite well. We have already seen Shaggydog feasting on a beast, showing that there is at least some positivity to their current situation.

As to Skagos and Skane themselves, they could contain some real treats. If the Old Tongue is prevailent on these islands, then what other Old Northern things might we find? How about some Skanish Giants? :D

Gotta get them Unicorns, Davos and Manderly's mission is pointless otherwise ^_^

Oh yeah! And Osha is just the perfect surrogate mum for Rickon, especially in these circumstances. I totally agree that she will see to Rickon's "education". 

I can't wait to see them all again! :)

 

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14 hours ago, Seams said:

Skip this if you're not interested in some ideas about the symbolism of the giant. In my mind, the guesses about Wun Wun's likely response to the attack on Jon become more focused if we understand the layers of meaning the author has built up around giants.

Bowen Marsh said, "You have a great thirst for a small man."
"Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man," Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night's Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. "I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world."
Tyrion answered gently, "I've been called many things, my lord, but giant is seldom one of them." (AGoT, Tyrion III)

It's important to keep in mind that Tyrion was identified as a giant at the Wall. The author wants us to make a connection back to that feast scene when other giants show up in the story.

Consider, also, the similarity of the imagery in this scene of Tyrion at the Battle of the Blackwater with Jon at the Wall when the Free Folk attack:

Tyrion cursed and made for the steps with a rolling waddle. Podrick Payne waited below with their horses. They galloped off down River Row, Pod and Ser Mandon Moore coming hard behind him. . . . by the time they reached the King's Gate, he could hear a booming crash of wood on wood that told him the battering ram had been brought into play. The groaning of the great hinges sounded like the moans of a dying giant. The gatehouse square was littered with the wounded, but he saw lines of horses as well, not all of them hurt, and sellswords and gold cloaks enough to form a strong column. "Form up," he shouted as he leapt to the ground. The gate moved under the impact of another blow. "Who commands here? You're going out." (ACoK, Tyrion VIII)
 
In the excerpt from Tyrion's arc, the breaking hinges on the gate sound like a dying giant. So wait a minute, you're saying: Tyrion IS the giant, according to Maester Aemon, but he also witnesses a symbolic giant dying? At a hole in a "wall"? Yes. Exactly. It's no coincidence that Ser Mandon Moore is present when Tyrion remarks on the sound of the dying giant. Tyrion will soon suffer a symbolic death at that same battle, with Ser Mandon attacking him for no reason that the reader or Tyrion can pinpoint. But Tyrion is "reborn" when he emerges from his bandages in a cell in the Red Keep, losing his title (acting Hand of the King) but reinventing himself eventually as husband to Sansa, Master of Coin, accused kingslayer, fugitive, slave, etc.
 
Similar to the giant dying at the gate in Tyrion's POV, at the Wall, the giant Mag the Mighty enters the tunnel under the Wall at Castle Black, dying with Donal Noye's sword in his throat. Donal Noye dies in that same tunnel, but Jon Snow does not suffer a real or symbolic death at that point. (Although I haven't gone back to reread the scene - there may be a symbolic death for Jon that I don't remember or haven't noticed.) Like Tyrion, however, he is soon reborn under a new title as Lord Commander.
 

Thanks for your input Seams, you have a sharp eye for detail and I always enjoy the way you break things down.

Nice catch with the Blackwater/Mag the Mighty crossover. Could we consider Noye's passing as an aspect of Jon's symbolic death and rebirth? Perhaps as part of the "kill the boy" idea? Donal does give Jon plenty of sage advice during the course of the story, and could be considered one of Snow's main mentors during his initial time with the Watch. With Noye and Jeor gone, and Aemon soon to follow, Jon now has no real elder mentor figures left amongst the Crows.

The one armed blacksmith also forged Robert's warhammer, which eventually killed Jon's father. Could his death also point towards "new steel" at The Wall, or some kind of "re-forging".

14 hours ago, Seams said:

After a search on the word "giant" in Jon and Tyrion's POVs, I am persuaded by the evidence that Tormund Giantsbane IS the Horn of Joramun. In Tormund's company, Jon counts:

... giants emerging from the blowing snow and pale mists that swirled along the Milkwater. He was well beyond fifty when Tormund said something and he lost the count. There must be hundreds. No matter how many went past, they just seemed to keep coming. (ASoS, Jon II)
 
Tormund also nudges Jon Snow to go ahead and get physical with Ygritte, who we know is kissed by fire. I know people don't like anagrams, but I suspect there is some sophisticated wordplay around giants and Targaryens. Jon is discovering his inner Targaryen ("I am the last of the giants, my people are gone from the earth") when he sees giants and when he kisses fire as eagerly as she kisses him. If you want to draw the logical conclusion that Tyrion must be a Targaryen, too, because he is identified as a giant, I won't argue with you. I think the giants are a symbol for Targaryens, and Jon meeting Tormund wakes the giants from the earth.

I dig this.

An interesting concept, and Tormund himself does go by several handles which have "loud" and "wall breaking" connotations - Tall Talker, Breaker of Ice, Thunderfist and Horn Blower. The alias "Giant's Bane" could relate to "Waking giants from the earth", after all, giants traditionally like their slumber, wouldn't they consider a walking alarm clock to be a bane? B)

By this theory do you reckon there is still a physical Horn of Joramund?

Your idea of giants being symbolic dragons also has alot a weight. If I may, I'd like to add a few.

  • Waking giants from the earth - Waking dragons from stone
  •  Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. (Compare this to)  Balerion . . . his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead."
  • We have Euron's Dragon Horn, said to be taken from the ruins of Old Valyria, and the fake horn Mance first displays - which turns out to have been taken from a giant's barrow.
  • The Titan of Braavos - the "protector" of an escaped Valyrian slave colony.
  • The Umber's castle Last Hearth - interesting that drunken and roaring giants make their home in the "Final Fire"
15 hours ago, Seams said:

So what is Wun Wun's specific role, vis-a-vis Jon's "death"? I think the earlier deaths - the hinges on the gate at King's Landing and Mag the Mighty dying in the tunnel at Castle Black - symbolize that the hole between death and rebirth cannot be easily opened. We get some "only death can pay for life" action in the deaths of giants at both locations. But Wun Wun is already through the Wall, at Jon's invitation; he is already "born" below the Wall and he has guest right because Jon has provided food for him.

 
This isn't clear in my mind yet, but I wonder whether the slaying of Ser Patrek is equivalent to the slaying of Tywin by Tyrion. Ser Patrek is from King's Mountain in the Stormlands and he is loyal to Stannis and Selyse. King's Mountain could be one of those thinly-veiled GRRM "equivalents" where he wants us to associate one location with another - King's Landing is built on hills names for Aegon and his sisters, so King's Mountain could be a euphemism for the Red Keep. "Patrek" might be a variation on "pater," the Latin word for "father." It might be too much of a stretch, I admit. The connection between Tyrion and giants is already established, however, even if Patrek =/= Tywin.
 

Ser Patrek of King's Mountain being a euphamism for "Father of the Red Keep" certainly works. Both Patrek's and Tywin's death at the hands of "giants" dramatically changed the landscape of both the Lannister regime and Night's Watch.

Ser Patrek's blue and silver attire with a starry cloak has much in common with Ser Hugh of The Vale's choice of raiment, blue and silver with crescent moons. Both share similiar colours decorated with astrological symbols, and both die at the hands of giants.

15 hours ago, Seams said:

In the short term, following Jon's death, I suspect that Wun Wun will pick up Jon's body and cradle it until it can be brought to safety - Tormund survived the ferocious snow storm by climbing into the belly of a giant and becoming Tormund the giant's babe; Cersei is picked up by the giant Ser Robert Strong at her rebirth after her walk of shame. She observes that she is picked up as easily as she lifted Joffrey when he was a babe. I admit, I'm not sure why a symbolic Targaryen would pick up Cersei to help her with her rebirth - maybe I'm wrong about the giants as symbolic Targaryens.

Then Jocelyn was bending over her, wrapping her in a soft clean blanket of green wool to cover her nakedness. A shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun. The queen felt cold steel slide beneath her, a pair of great armored arms lifting her off the ground, lifting her up into the air as easily as she had lifted Joffrey when he was still a babe. A giant, thought Cersei, dizzy, as he carried her with great strides toward the gatehouse. She had heard that giants could still be found in the godless wild beyond the Wall. That is just a tale. Am I dreaming?

No. Her savior was real. Eight feet tall or maybe taller, with legs as thick around as trees, he had a chest worthy of a plow horse and shoulders that would not disgrace an ox. His armor was plate steel, enameled white and bright as a maiden's hopes, and worn over gilded mail. A greathelm hid his face. From its crest streamed seven silken plumes in the rainbow colors of the Faith. A pair of golden seven-pointed stars clasped his billowing cloak at the shoulders.

A white cloak. (ADwD, Cersei II)

Of course, "Ser Robert" is also a symbolic King Robert. Maybe the giant Robert Strong is a symbolic Targaryen in the sense that King Robert inherited some Targaryen blood on his mother's side of the family.
 
So the giant becomes a symbolic mother for the "new born" character. Brienne is also a "giant," and she is associated with Jaime's redemption arc (teaming up with Podrick Payne, who is associated with Tyrion's death and rebirth at the Blackwater). I think Jaime has a symbolic rebirth when he and Brienne are in the hot bath together and she cradles his body after he faints from exhaustion and blood loss. Maybe Wun Wun's role in Jon's arc will involve some kind of quest on behalf of the hero, such as the one made by Brienne at Jaime's request, or the champion role for which Robert Strong has been created.
 

I like the idea of giants as mother figures, perhaps this is why George snuck in the bit about male and female members of the species looking similiar.

All the names you listen certainly do go through major shifts during these encounters with giants. Great work my friend.

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4 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Nice catch with the Blackwater/Mag the Mighty crossover. Could we consider Noye's passing as an aspect of Jon's symbolic death and rebirth? Perhaps as part of the "kill the boy" idea? Donal does give Jon plenty of sage advice during the course of the story, and could be considered one of Snow's main mentors during his initial time with the Watch. With Noye and Jeor gone, and Aemon soon to follow, Jon now has no real elder mentor figures left amongst the Crows.

The one armed blacksmith also forged Robert's warhammer, which eventually killed Jon's father. Could his death also point towards "new steel" at The Wall, or some kind of "re-forging".

A lot of this was new to me yesterday as I was reading the "giant" search results but, yes, I suspect Donal Noye's death is a symbolic death for Jon. Jon sleeps in Donal's room after he becomes Lord Commander, and makes note of Donal's possessions. Also, I suspect Jon became a "smith" when he made a handle for his own ugly dagger - the obsidian blade he kept for himself out of the cache at the Fist.

But I also like the idea of Jon being reforged. I felt that began when he put his hand in the fire while fighting the wight, but this could advance the symbolism that began earlier. 

If we are comparing Tyrion (= giant) killing Tywin to Donal making the weapon that killed Rhaegar, this father-slaying motif could also strengthen the parallel between the two characters and the two scenes. Donal's one arm also seems like a Jaime allusion.

This is not necessarily giant-related, but in an odd way, I do see Ser Alliser Thorne as a mentor for both Jon and Tyrion, even though he seems to have contempt for them both. I think "Thorne" is a pun on "throne" (Tyrion is sitting on the Iron Throne when Ser Alliser sees him at King's Landing). But there are other layers of symbolism with him.

I'll respond to your other point later. 

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Great topic.  I can't wait to see what happens at Castle Black as you have so many different factions already having tensions with each other- Jon's assassination is sure to be a powder keg that sets them all off against each other.  

As other posters have noted, Val is definitely the wildcard here.  I think obviously there's a lot more story left to tell with her and what was being set up- whether there is romance between her and Jon or violence on her part towards Shireen and the Queen's Men.  Val, while portrayed as capable and respected among the wildlings, does not actually command any of them as soldiers and as we know her "princess" designation is Southron nonsense that the wildlings don't respect any more than Gerrick Kingsblood and his claims of kingship.  It's interesting to note that you have Ser Patrek who is a Queen's Man really lighting the powder keg- his death will not go over well with Selyse and the Queen's Men who are in a precarious situation as well now that the wildlings outnumber them.  Do some of the other Queen's Men now attack Wun-Wun and make their move to "steal" Val?  That will not end well for them.  

It will be interesting to see whether Val goes after Shireen or we get something more along the lines of the show with Melisandre and her obsession with "King's Blood" getting the better of her and Melisandre going after Shireen.  Does book Selyse support Mel in that situation or her daughter?  We haven't been given much reason to think Selyse has any real love for Shireen and seems to be fiercely devoted to Melisandre.  

Also, as noted earlier, the Ides of Marsh was a poorly calculated desperation attack that won't end well for the mutineers, who are surrounded on all sides by an overwhelming number of wildlings and Night's Watchmen, a majority of which have sworn some kind of oath of loyalty to Jon.  The mutineers certainly will not be surviving much longer, even with varying levels of support among the Night's Watchmen.

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22 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

What!? That southron milk!? :P

Nitpicking is always welcome dude! I wonder if it's the mulled wine favoured by the Old Bear?

What's the stuff Jon drinks that feels like tendrills of fire creeping down his throat? I can't remember the circumtances, but I always took it to be some kind of "wildling whisky"?

It doesn't specify what kind of wine.

Quote

Leathers grinned. "I will, m'lord, but Hardin's is bone cold. Perhaps m'lord could send out some wine to warm us?"

"For you. Not him." Wun Wun had never tasted wine until he came to Castle Black, but once he had, he had taken a gigantic liking to it. Too much a liking. Jon had enough to contend with just now without adding a drunken giant to the mix.--A Dance with Dragons - Jon IX

It was when Jon was going to Mance Rader's tent to murder him and he ran into Tormund "Mead-King of Ruddy Hall".  Fitting that it was mead.

Quote

"To Donal Noye, and Mag the Mighty." The skin was full of mead, but a mead so potent that it made Jon's eyes water and sent tendrils of fire snaking through his chest. After the ice cell and the cold ride down in the cage, the warmth was welcome.--A Storm of Swords - Jon X

 

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7 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

An interesting concept, and Tormund himself does go by several handles which have "loud" and "wall breaking" connotations - Tall Talker, Breaker of Ice, Thunderfist and Horn Blower. The alias "Giant's Bane" could relate to "Waking giants from the earth", after all, giants traditionally like their slumber, wouldn't they consider a walking alarm clock to be a bane? B)

By this theory do you reckon there is still a physical Horn of Joramun?

After extensive discussions in this forum and many searches for hints in the text, I had started to wonder whether some of the legendary Valyrian steel swords will never reappear in literal form. But I was also seeing that a number of characters personify weapons (Theon as the sword Ice was one of the earliest examples that became apparent to me). So it would not surprise me if we never see a literal Horn of Joramun, but we do see someone like Tormund fulfill the legend of the horn - waking giants and bringing down the Wall. I suspect that his encounter with Jon Snow, where giants appear from the mist in numbers too great for Jon to count, is GRRM's hint to us that we can expect Tormund to be responsible for bringing down the Wall.

I had already noted the similarity between Tormund's arm bands, covered with runes, and the bands on the large horn that Melisandre burns (which turns out not to be "the" horn).

These passages may hold some more clues.

One of the giants coming up on them looked older than the rest. His pelt was grey and streaked with white, and the mammoth he rode, larger than any of the others, was grey and white as well. Tormund shouted something up to him as he passed, harsh clanging words in a tongue that Jon did not comprehend. The giant's lips split apart to reveal a mouth full of huge square teeth, and he made a sound half belch and half rumble. After a moment Jon realized he was laughing. The mammoth turned its massive head to regard the two of them briefly, one huge tusk passing over the top of Jon's head as the beast lumbered by, leaving huge footprints in the soft mud and fresh snow along the river. The giant shouted down something in the same coarse tongue that Tormund had used.

"Was that their king?" asked Jon.

"Giants have no kings, no more'n mammoths do, nor snow bears, nor the great whales o' the grey sea. That was Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg. Mag the Mighty. You can kneel to him if you like, he won't mind. I know your kneeler's knees must be itching, for want of some king to bend to. Watch out he don't step on you, though. Giants have bad eyes, and might be he wouldn't see some little crow all the way down there by his feet." (ASoS, Jon II)

"Aye. I asked him if that was his father he was forking, they looked so much alike, except his father had a better smell."

"And what did he say to you?"

Tormund Thunderfist cracked a gap-toothed smile. "He asked me if that was my daughter riding there beside me, with her smooth pink cheeks." The wildling shook snow from his arm and turned his horse about. "It may be he never saw a man without a beard before. Come, we start back. Mance grows sore wroth when I'm not found in my accustomed place." (ASoS, Jon II)

Tormund has a "harsh clanging" voice that can be comprehended by giants and Mance worries when Tormund is not found in his accustomed place. We know that the thing Mance (and Jon) want to find is the horn. So these may be indirect hints that Tormund is the horn.

But there are other interesting clues in those passages that may reinforce the giant / death-of-Tywin and death-of-Rhaegar allusions mentioned earlier in the thread. Tormund wants to know if the giant is forking (riding) his father (the mammoth). I suspect that words that end in -king might be references to - care to guess? - kings. (For instance, Arya describes Gendry as thinking and we all recall Joffrey choking.)

This may be a little complex but bear with me: If the giant is riding his father, and the father is a king (forking = for king), then maybe the giant symbolizes Jon, son of Rhaegar. So it might be that, when the giant and Donal Noye later die in the tunnel beneath the Wall, it's not Donal's death that symbolizes a death for Jon Snow, but the death of the giant, Mag the Mighty, that symbolizes the "son," Jon Snow. It might make sense that Donal Noye represents King Robert, since Donal made the war hammer that Robert used to kill Rhaegar. Dying in the Wall could represent dying in the river. (Not to get too far off topic, but Robert tells Ned that he never felt more dead than after he won the Iron Throne.) But this is obviously pretty complex as an allegory. Maybe Donal Noye represents Rhaegar, not Robert. A little detour back to AGoT:

The two from the Fingers pulled him off, throwing him roughly to the ground. Grenn began to kick at him. Jon was rolling away from the blows when a booming voice cut through the gloom of the armory. "STOP THIS! NOW!"

Jon pulled himself to his feet. Donal Noye stood glowering at them. "The yard is for fighting," the armorer said. "Keep your quarrels out of my armory, or I'll make them my quarrels. You won't like that."

Toad sat on the floor, gingerly feeling the back of his head. His fingers came away bloody. "He tried to kill me." (AGoT, Jon III)

Keep in mind that Tywin was killed with a crossbow quarrel. "Der Tod" is the German term for death, and this early struggle with the Night's Watch brother "Toad" may be foreshadowing Jon's future efforts to conquer death.

But back to Tormund and the giant. The exchange about the giant forking his father was preceded by the ironic conversation where Jon doesn't know anything about kings of the giants or mammoths or whales in the sea. Soon Jon will meet Mance and assume the other guy in the tent is the king. So Ygritte is right in saying that Jon knows nothing. Certainly nothing about himself and his heritage.

Tormund saying that the giant's father had a better smell strikes me as a very clear reference to Tywin, who becomes famous for his bad smell. So that reinforces the Tyrion = giant imagery we noted earlier. Tyrion is also associated with a fork as he challenged Alliser Thorne to a duel using a crab fork. (Arya also treasures a silver fork given to her by sailors along with some other odd gifts.)

Turning a horse around and shaking "snow" from his arm are also symbolic. Jon as Tormund's daughter is a new idea to me, but probably also significant. I think beards are used as disguises (Jon Connington with his blue beard, Tyrion cutting off dishonest Pycelle's beard, Barristan as Ser Arstan Whitebeard, etc.) so it's interesting that the giant believes the absence of a beard on Jon is worth noting. Jon is supposedly "disguised" as a NW deserter here but the giant's remark about his beardless face might mean that he sees Jon as not hiding anything. It does seem as if Jon is becoming himself and discovering himself when he is with the wildlings, and he certainly returns to the Night's Watch with a different attitude toward the free folk and the threat - or lack thereof - posed to the NW and the community below the Wall.

More later, if I get some time.

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4 hours ago, Seams said:

But I also like the idea of Jon being reforged

This is exactly my thinking on it. Jon is literally the "sword in the darkness"


The reforming of swords is a huge theme and I do not think it is an accident that "I am the sword in the darkness" is in the NW vows. I see the swords being reforged much in the way that the biblical renaming of prophets from god goes down. Abram is changed to Abraham and Sarai is changed to Sarah. Jacob has his name changed to Israel after wrestling with God, Simon was changed to Peter and many more. When God gave someone a new name it came along with a new mission in life. Sarai meant princess, but she was told to be the mother of nations and her name was changed to Sarah which means mother of nations.

 

When Ice is Reforged it was turned to Widows Wail wail and Oathkeeper. Oathkeeper was given an obvious mission in conjunction with the new name and I believe that we will see windows wail make a widow cry (though we do see cersei wailing at Joff's death but not really as direct result of the sword). Longclaw may not have been reforged but I believe it was repurposed (I just don't buy the story of it being the Mormont family blade) but at the very least was given a new pommel before given to john. Dany "reforges" Saduleon, Joso's PRank and Summer Sun. And with people surely we see Lord Beric reforged, I would argue that both Arya and Sansa do more than just grow but are also reforged and repurposed. The Mountain, the hound, hell everyone on the quiet isle....and many others.

 

I would go so far as to say that Reforging is the largest theme in this book, whether an item, a weapon, a person or, indeed, the 7 kingdoms itself. The Iron Throne, like the kingdoms, are forged together and in the process of a reforging. That Jon is in a state of being reforged is beyond question. The only question is what his purpose will be once taken from the whetstone.


That he stays in Noye's chamber is interesting to me because it suggests in someway that Jon is unlike the other reforged items and people....he is reforging himself. He is the blacksmith and the sword.

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21 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I would go so far as to say that Reforging is the largest theme in this book, whether an item, a weapon, a person or, indeed, the 7 kingdoms itself. The Iron Throne, like the kingdoms, are forged together and in the process of a reforging. That Jon is in a state of being reforged is beyond question. The only question is what his purpose will be once taken from the whetstone.


That he stays in Noye's chamber is interesting to me because it suggests in someway that Jon is unlike the other reforged items and people....he is reforging himself. He is the blacksmith and the sword.

I like this.  Actually, I liked pretty much everything you said there.  

He is the blacksmith and the sword.  "Kill the boy, and let the man be born."  It's something he has to do himself.  

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On 10/10/2017 at 7:07 AM, Leo of House Cartel said:

Your idea of giants being symbolic dragons also has a lot a weight. If I may, I'd like to add a few. . . . 

Ser Patrek of King's Mountain being a euphamism for "Father of the Red Keep" certainly works. Both Patrek's and Tywin's death at the hands of "giants" dramatically changed the landscape of both the Lannister regime and Night's Watch.

Ser Patrek's blue and silver attire with a starry cloak has much in common with Ser Hugh of The Vale's choice of raiment, blue and silver with crescent moons. Both share similiar colours decorated with astrological symbols, and both die at the hands of giants.

I like the idea of giants as mother figures, perhaps this is why George snuck in the bit about male and female members of the species looking similiar.

All the names you listen certainly do go through major shifts during these encounters with giants. Great work my friend.

This is a terrific connection - the death of Ser Hugh of the Vale and of Ser Patrek. Very nice catch. 

Jon's climb up a mountain with Stonesnake and Sansa's descent from the Eyrie with Mya Stone both include conversations about the mountain being the "mother" or parent of the POV character. There is also the Barbra's Teats / Missy's Teats controversy about hills named for mistresses of Aegon IV. So the "Mountain that Rides" and "King's Mountain" references fit with the whole father / son motif mentioned earlier in the thread. 

Ser Hugh is from a vale and he is killed by a giant man known as "The Mountain." Ser Patrek is from a mountain and he is also killed by a giant - one who is protecting Val. (Val = Vale?) I suspect that the fool Moonboy represents Ser Hugh in some way - Moonboy first appears at the feast on the day Ser Hugh dies, and Ser Hugh wore crescent moons on his cloak and grew up around the Gates of the Moon. So who would Ser Patrek represent? Before his death, he hangs around Queen Selyse. If the Moonboy comparison fits for Ser Hugh, maybe there is a Patchface comparison for Ser Patrek. 

There may be a further set of symbols in riding: Mag the Mighty riding the mammoth and Gregor Clegane riding his gigantic draft horse in the jousting match. Now I'm wondering whether Coldhands riding the giant Elk is connected? All of the animals die, iirc. The mammoth dies in the battle at the wall, Gregor beheads his horse and Coldhands and Meera slaughter the elk for food in the last days of their journey to the cave of the CotF. 

The initial giants tend to be killers, so how do they switch to become symbolic "mothers"? I guess this could bring us back to the statue / towers of the god called Trios - one head represents death, another represents rebirth and the third head is not defined. (But could represent magic, science or religion, among other possibilities.) Mag the Mighty dies and Wun Wun is born? But Wun Wun is a killer, too. Gregor Clegane dies and Ser Robert Strong is born? But Cersei is counting on Ser Robert to be her champion, meaning he will have to be a killer, too. Maybe everyone is supposed to be all three heads of Trios at all times? 

If Coldhands is part of the "giant that rides" symbolism, and if Tormund's remark about Mag the Mighty forking his father (the mammoth) is a hint for us about symbolic fathers, care to guess about the identity of Coldhands? Could he be Bran's father?

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1 hour ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

I like this.  Actually, I liked pretty much everything you said there.  

He is the blacksmith and the sword.  "Kill the boy, and let the man be born."  It's something he has to do himself.  


Thank you very much and I think kill th eboy, and let the man be born is something you are right to point to. Of all the things that are transformed or reforged in our story Jon really is unique (possibly with the exception of Sansa, but that is another longer post). Everything and everyone seems to be going through changes. Some changes are minor, like the turning over of ownership of the Inn at the Crossroads. Some changes are major, such as the transforming of Ice into Widows Wail and Oathkeeper. Where Jon is different is that he is constantly changing. From the very start when he talks Ned into keeping the Direwolves, to his reunderstanding of Tyrion, his first time getting really drunk, his leaving for the wall, his taking his oaths, his learning to change his ways and make friends, his abandoning and returning of the nights watch, his talks with aemon, his encounter with the wight, receiving longclaw, the fist of the first men, his time with Stone Snake and the Half Hand, his time with the Wildlings, his coming to understand and respect Mance, his return to the wall, his acceptance of his election in the NW, burning his hand and the constant flexing, his talks with Noye -- his death --and a million other things I am forgetting off the top of my head....Jon truly is the Ouroboros in our story...he doesn't just change he is in a constant state of changing.

 

This is interesting because the Ouroboros is a dragon which eats its own tail as a symbol of the constant change in nature and the constant creation, destruction and recreation and this is the exact image of fire. Fire survives by destroying its own life source (oxygen and wood) and while a fire does look like one thing it is actually a constantly moving and changing series of flames. The Fire we see one minute is not the fire we see in the next. That Jon is a symbol of Fire and Ice is a fairly well accepted idea and everyone sees the Ice part. That is obvious. He is part stark. He is raised in winterfell with northern values. He is a member of and later LC of the NW, he spends time with the free folk, his general demeanor. Fine. But what part is the fire. Too many people simply point to R=L but even if that is true it isn't enough. What part of him IS fire. I think it is just this...the constant flickering and destruction and recreation of himself. This is furthered with his connection to Donal Noye, his staying in his chambers and him killing the boy and letting the man be born with the fact that it is fire that is the main component of a forging or reforging. We think back to what Noye said about the brothers baratheion:

Quote

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day

Noye explains people and their very being in terms of metal (which is normal for a blacksmith) and the different type of person is a different type of metal.

 

And here is my punch out. If Jon is Ice and Fire for the reasons listed above, and if he is the blacksmith and the sword AND if we hold to Donal Noye and people being able to be described in terms of their metal then which metal is Jon. Robert is Steel. Stannis is Iron. Renly is copper. I think the only possible conclusion is that Jon is Valyrian steel. Not too put too fine a point on it but

  • Jon has an obvious obsession with VS and fantasizes about his fathers sword
  • Jon is given Longclaw (which I am still convinced is more than meets the eye
  • Almost all of what we know about VS in the series and surely the most used VS weapon is Jon's Sword

these three show that Jon is intimately related to VS. But more than that, how is VS described? It has ripples that are the mark of a steel folded back on itself 1000 times (Jon's constant transformations) and my favorite....they are lighter, stronger and sharper than even the best castle forged steel. And that is EXACTLY what Jon is...he is a bastard and as such he is NOT castle forged steel. Robb is castle forged. He is a true born son. But Jon is, in the end, lighter, stronger and sharper than Robb. He is the Valyrian Steel to Robb's castle forged steel. Who else is castle forged steel? Alliser Throne for one. But now I am going off on a tangent.

Forged by dragons, being folded back on itself thousands of time, powerful with magic and stronger than even the best castle forged steel, Valyrian Steel, I would argue, is the metal which Jon is in the same way that Robert is the true steel.


Just some thoughts to ponder.

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On 10/10/2017 at 5:03 PM, Seams said:

This is not necessarily giant-related, but in an odd way, I do see Ser Alliser Thorne as a mentor for both Jon and Tyrion, even though he seems to have contempt for them both. I think "Thorne" is a pun on "throne" (Tyrion is sitting on the Iron Throne when Ser Alliser sees him at King's Landing). But there are other layers of symbolism with him.

I'll respond to your other point later. 

Sorry for the late response my friend, I've been pretty busy over the last few days.

I agree about Thorne. The winter rose and thorn connection, coupled with Ser Allister's presence helping Jon in the long run would certainly put him as a father figure.

On 10/10/2017 at 8:18 PM, Seams said:

After extensive discussions in this forum and many searches for hints in the text, I had started to wonder whether some of the legendary Valyrian steel swords will never reappear in literal form. But I was also seeing that a number of characters personify weapons (Theon as the sword Ice was one of the earliest examples that became apparent to me). So it would not surprise me if we never see a literal Horn of Joramun, but we do see someone like Tormund fulfill the legend of the horn - waking giants and bringing down the Wall. I suspect that his encounter with Jon Snow, where giants appear from the mist in numbers too great for Jon to count, is GRRM's hint to us that we can expect Tormund to be responsible for bringing down the Wall.

I had already noted the similarity between Tormund's arm bands, covered with runes, and the bands on the large horn that Melisandre burns (which turns out not to be "the" horn).

These passages may hold some more clues.

One of the giants coming up on them looked older than the rest. His pelt was grey and streaked with white, and the mammoth he rode, larger than any of the others, was grey and white as well. Tormund shouted something up to him as he passed, harsh clanging words in a tongue that Jon did not comprehend. The giant's lips split apart to reveal a mouth full of huge square teeth, and he made a sound half belch and half rumble. After a moment Jon realized he was laughing. The mammoth turned its massive head to regard the two of them briefly, one huge tusk passing over the top of Jon's head as the beast lumbered by, leaving huge footprints in the soft mud and fresh snow along the river. The giant shouted down something in the same coarse tongue that Tormund had used.

"Was that their king?" asked Jon.

"Giants have no kings, no more'n mammoths do, nor snow bears, nor the great whales o' the grey sea. That was Mag Mar Tun Doh Weg. Mag the Mighty. You can kneel to him if you like, he won't mind. I know your kneeler's knees must be itching, for want of some king to bend to. Watch out he don't step on you, though. Giants have bad eyes, and might be he wouldn't see some little crow all the way down there by his feet." (ASoS, Jon II)

"Aye. I asked him if that was his father he was forking, they looked so much alike, except his father had a better smell."

"And what did he say to you?"

Tormund Thunderfist cracked a gap-toothed smile. "He asked me if that was my daughter riding there beside me, with her smooth pink cheeks." The wildling shook snow from his arm and turned his horse about. "It may be he never saw a man without a beard before. Come, we start back. Mance grows sore wroth when I'm not found in my accustomed place." (ASoS, Jon II)

Tormund has a "harsh clanging" voice that can be comprehended by giants and Mance worries when Tormund is not found in his accustomed place. We know that the thing Mance (and Jon) want to find is the horn. So these may be indirect hints that Tormund is the horn.

 

That passage with Tormund, Jon and Mag does bring to mind the scene where Jon, Jarl and Ygritte scale the wall, specifically the part where chunks of ice begin to rain down.

"Jon was watching them inch along when he heard the sound—a sudden crack that seemed to roll along the ice, followed by a shout of alarm. And then the air was full of shards and shrieks and falling men, as a sheet of ice a foot thick and fifty feet square broke off from the Wall and came tumbling, crumbling, rumbling, sweeping all before it. Even down at the foot of the ridge, some chunks came spinning through the trees and rolling down the slope."

"The giant's lips split apart to reveal a mouth full of huge square teeth, and he made a sound half belch and half rumble. After a moment Jon realized he was laughing. The mammoth turned its massive head to regard the two of them briefly, one huge tusk passing over the top of Jon's head as the beast lumbered by, leaving huge footprints in the soft mud and fresh snow along the river. The giant shouted down something in the same coarse tongue that Tormund had used."

Quite a few crossovers, what do you think?

On 10/10/2017 at 8:18 PM, Seams said:

Tormund Thunderfist cracked a gap-toothed smile. "He asked me if that was my daughter riding there beside me, with her smooth pink cheeks." The wildling shook snow from his arm and turned his horse about. "It may be he never saw a man without a beard before. Come, we start back. Mance grows sore wroth when I'm not found in my accustomed place." (ASoS, Jon II)

Tormund has a "harsh clanging" voice that can be comprehended by giants and Mance worries when Tormund is not found in his accustomed place. We know that the thing Mance (and Jon) want to find is the horn. So these may be indirect hints that Tormund is the horn.

Seams, I must say your evidence is very convincing. Tormund's voice in particular.

If you are correct that Tormund may in fact fulfill the role of the Horn then the idea of amongst many in the fandom that Sam has has the real horn could be an ironic example of "power residing where men believe it does" 

On 10/10/2017 at 8:18 PM, Seams said:

But there are other interesting clues in those passages that may reinforce the giant / death-of-Tywin and death-of-Rhaegar allusions mentioned earlier in the thread. Tormund wants to know if the giant is forking (riding) his father (the mammoth). I suspect that words that end in -king might be references to - care to guess? - kings. (For instance, Arya describes Gendry as thinking and we all recall Joffrey choking.)

This may be a little complex but bear with me: If the giant is riding his father, and the father is a king (forking = for king), then maybe the giant symbolizes Jon, son of Rhaegar. So it might be that, when the giant and Donal Noye later die in the tunnel beneath the Wall, it's not Donal's death that symbolizes a death for Jon Snow, but the death of the giant, Mag the Mighty, that symbolizes the "son," Jon Snow. It might make sense that Donal Noye represents King Robert, since Donal made the war hammer that Robert used to kill Rhaegar. Dying in the Wall could represent dying in the river. (Not to get too far off topic, but Robert tells Ned that he never felt more dead than after he won the Iron Throne.) But this is obviously pretty complex as an allegory. Maybe Donal Noye represents Rhaegar, not Robert. A little detour back to AGoT:

The two from the Fingers pulled him off, throwing him roughly to the ground. Grenn began to kick at him. Jon was rolling away from the blows when a booming voice cut through the gloom of the armory. "STOP THIS! NOW!"

Jon pulled himself to his feet. Donal Noye stood glowering at them. "The yard is for fighting," the armorer said. "Keep your quarrels out of my armory, or I'll make them my quarrels. You won't like that."

Toad sat on the floor, gingerly feeling the back of his head. His fingers came away bloody. "He tried to kill me." (AGoT, Jon III)

Keep in mind that Tywin was killed with a crossbow quarrel. "Der Tod" is the German term for death, and this early struggle with the Night's Watch brother "Toad" may be foreshadowing Jon's future efforts to conquer death.

I like the for-king and thin-king allusion, that's something I'll be keeping an eye out for in future re-reads.

Noye could represents a bit of Rhaegar and Robert both, considering all three died in a "river" as you said. Your previously mentioned dragon/giant collusion could also play into Mag representing the "son" Jon.

 

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11 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Seams, I must say your evidence is very convincing. Tormund's voice in particular.

If you are correct that Tormund may in fact fulfill the role of the Horn then the idea of amongst many in the fandom that Sam has has the real horn could be an ironic example of "power residing where men believe it does"

I'm already wondering if the Tormund = horn notion is wrong. GRRM uses the phrase "harsh clanging words" to describe Tormund's voice in addressing the giant. When you search on the word "clang," it's always a bell, sword-on-sword combat, slamming doors or, interestingly, a helmet or bucket dropping. (Another thread has got me thinking about helmets - Gregor, Sandor and Rattleshirt's helmets in particular. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet and Patchface wears a bucket.)

But the waking of the giants seems linked to Tormund, and the death of Mag the Mighty in the Wall could be a link to the Joramun legend as well; a prelude to the eventual collapse of the Wall, perhaps. So I'm not quite ready to abandon the Tormund = horn theory.

Theon and the sword Ice co-exist. If that connected pair is a model for the horn, it's still possible that Sam could have the horn of Joramun but Tormund still could personify the horn at the same time.

As you say, the kind of thing you have to look for on a re-read. More evidence could be necessary to pin this down.

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19 minutes ago, Seams said:

I'm already wondering if the Tormund = horn notion is wrong. GRRM uses the phrase "harsh clanging words" to describe Tormund's voice in addressing the giant. When you search on the word "clang," it's always a bell, sword-on-sword combat, slamming doors or, interestingly, a helmet or bucket dropping. (Another thread has got me thinking about helmets - Gregor, Sandor and Rattleshirt's helmets in particular. Rattleshirt wears a giant's skull as a helmet and Patchface wears a bucket.)

But the waking of the giants seems linked to Tormund, and the death of Mag the Mighty in the Wall could be a link to the Joramun legend as well; a prelude to the eventual collapse of the Wall, perhaps. So I'm not quite ready to abandon the Tormund = horn theory.

Theon and the sword Ice co-exist. If that connected pair is a model for the horn, it's still possible that Sam could have the horn of Joramun but Tormund still could personify the horn at the same time.

As you say, the kind of thing you have to look for on a re-read. More evidence could be necessary to pin this down.

Hey there Seams, don't give up yet! 

I think you may be on to something about Tormund and the horn. I had a very similar idea anwhile back. I'm on my phone so it makes it hard for me to copy/paste just the text, but here is a link to what stuck out to me. 

 

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On 11/10/2017 at 7:49 PM, Seams said:

This is a terrific connection - the death of Ser Hugh of the Vale and of Ser Patrek. Very nice catch. 

Jon's climb up a mountain with Stonesnake and Sansa's descent from the Eyrie with Mya Stone both include conversations about the mountain being the "mother" or parent of the POV character. There is also the Barbra's Teats / Missy's Teats controversy about hills named for mistresses of Aegon IV. So the "Mountain that Rides" and "King's Mountain" references fit with the whole father / son motif mentioned earlier in the thread. 

Ser Hugh is from a vale and he is killed by a giant man known as "The Mountain." Ser Patrek is from a mountain and he is also killed by a giant - one who is protecting Val. (Val = Vale?) I suspect that the fool Moonboy represents Ser Hugh in some way - Moonboy first appears at the feast on the day Ser Hugh dies, and Ser Hugh wore crescent moons on his cloak and grew up around the Gates of the Moon. So who would Ser Patrek represent? Before his death, he hangs around Queen Selyse. If the Moonboy comparison fits for Ser Hugh, maybe there is a Patchface comparison for Ser Patrek. 

Thank you :D

I'll have a peak and see what Pathface links I can find, but Ser Patrek could also have a link to another fool - Shagwell of the Brave Companions. The Bloody Mummer's resident jester died at the hands of another giant, Brienne.

On 11/10/2017 at 7:49 PM, Seams said:

There may be a further set of symbols in riding: Mag the Mighty riding the mammoth and Gregor Clegane riding his gigantic draft horse in the jousting match. Now I'm wondering whether Coldhands riding the giant Elk is connected? All of the animals die, iirc. The mammoth dies in the battle at the wall, Gregor beheads his horse and Coldhands and Meera slaughter the elk for food in the last days of their journey to the cave of the CotF. 

The initial giants tend to be killers, so how do they switch to become symbolic "mothers"? I guess this could bring us back to the statue / towers of the god called Trios - one head represents death, another represents rebirth and the third head is not defined. (But could represent magic, science or religion, among other possibilities.) Mag the Mighty dies and Wun Wun is born? But Wun Wun is a killer, too. Gregor Clegane dies and Ser Robert Strong is born? But Cersei is counting on Ser Robert to be her champion, meaning he will have to be a killer, too. Maybe everyone is supposed to be all three heads of Trios at all times

If Coldhands is part of the "giant that rides" symbolism, and if Tormund's remark about Mag the Mighty forking his father (the mammoth) is a hint for us about symbolic fathers, care to guess about the identity of Coldhands? Could he be Bran's father?

Can't argue with your logic on Trios, and nice way of connecting the mysterious faith to the various giants.

Interestingly enough, all the POV mothers are killers. Cat, Cersei, Dany, and perhaps Asha, if certain theories are true. All have either killed with their own hands or ordered somene else to do the deed. We also have characters like Olenna and Lysa who have ordered murders, perhaps showing how Wun Wun and co could fill the various Trios roles.

The mystery man himself! I think we may need a bit more of a reveal in regards to his backstory, but If Coldhands represents Ned, what does Hodor symbolise? Bran does ride on the giant stableboy's back via his basket.

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18 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey there Seams, don't give up yet! 

I think you may be on to something about Tormund and the horn. I had a very similar idea awhile back. I'm on my phone so it makes it hard for me to copy/paste just the text, but here is a link to what stuck out to me.

Thanks for the link! I knew I had seen / discussed this somewhere. You offer better evidence than the loud voice I thought might be a Tormund = horn clue.

But Tormund's clanging voice couldn't be accidental, and it is probably linked to the other clangs in the books. I suspect there is a specific meaning when GRRM tells us that someone has taken off his helm or is not wearing a helm or (similarly) has dropped a bucket or is not carrying a bucket. The giants could be linked to the helmets, through Rattleshirt's giant skull helmet. A bucket could be linked to the horn - Jon tells Sam that he could use the broken horn from the cache at the Fist as a drinking horn. (If you search on "horn sound" on the Search of Ice and Fire website, there is a lot of imagery in Catelyn POVs involving drinking horns and sound, just about the same time Jon gives the horn to Sam.)

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I'll have a peak and see what Pathface links I can find, but Ser Patrek could also have a link to another fool - Shagwell of the Brave Companions. The Bloody Mummer's resident jester died at the hands of another giant, Brienne.

Can't argue with your logic on Trios, and nice way of connecting the mysterious faith to the various giants.

Interestingly enough, all the POV mothers are killers. Cat, Cersei, Dany, and perhaps Asha, if certain theories are true. All have either killed with their own hands or ordered someone else to do the deed. We also have characters like Olenna and Lysa who have ordered murders, perhaps showing how Wun Wun and co could fill the various Trios roles.

The mystery man himself! I think we may need a bit more of a reveal in regards to his backstory, but If Coldhands represents Ned, what does Hodor symbolise? Bran does ride on the giant stableboy's back via his basket.

Wow! Of course Shagwell is killed by a giant! Very nice. I wonder whether Ser Dontos is also killed by a giant, since Littlefinger, with his sigil of the head-of-the-Titan-of-Braavos, orders his death?

More stone mothers: the stone statue of Lyanna in the Winterfell crypt is her only 3D presence in Jon's life. Lady Stoneheart is Bran's mother, in a way. I noted the mountains called Missy's Teats earlier - Melissa Blackwood was Bloodraven's mother.

And another wow for catching Bran riding on the "giant" Hodor! In the books, two of the references to clanging are closing doors. Hodor opens the door in the Winterfell crypt and pushes Bran and his companions through the "murder hole" hatch in the Queen's Crown tower before managing to climb through the hole himself.

Looks like we need to make a little spreadsheet with giants, fools, fathers, riding big animals, horns, helmets, buckets, doors, mountains, mother's milk and killers, to see if we can spot a clearer pattern.

The plot thickens.

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On 10/11/2017 at 2:24 PM, YOVMO said:


Thank you very much and I think kill th eboy, and let the man be born is something you are right to point to. Of all the things that are transformed or reforged in our story Jon really is unique (possibly with the exception of Sansa, but that is another longer post). Everything and everyone seems to be going through changes. Some changes are minor, like the turning over of ownership of the Inn at the Crossroads. Some changes are major, such as the transforming of Ice into Widows Wail and Oathkeeper. Where Jon is different is that he is constantly changing. From the very start when he talks Ned into keeping the Direwolves, to his reunderstanding of Tyrion, his first time getting really drunk, his leaving for the wall, his taking his oaths, his learning to change his ways and make friends, his abandoning and returning of the nights watch, his talks with aemon, his encounter with the wight, receiving longclaw, the fist of the first men, his time with Stone Snake and the Half Hand, his time with the Wildlings, his coming to understand and respect Mance, his return to the wall, his acceptance of his election in the NW, burning his hand and the constant flexing, his talks with Noye -- his death --and a million other things I am forgetting off the top of my head....Jon truly is the Ouroboros in our story...he doesn't just change he is in a constant state of changing.

 

This is interesting because the Ouroboros is a dragon which eats its own tail as a symbol of the constant change in nature and the constant creation, destruction and recreation and this is the exact image of fire. Fire survives by destroying its own life source (oxygen and wood) and while a fire does look like one thing it is actually a constantly moving and changing series of flames. The Fire we see one minute is not the fire we see in the next. That Jon is a symbol of Fire and Ice is a fairly well accepted idea and everyone sees the Ice part. That is obvious. He is part stark. He is raised in winterfell with northern values. He is a member of and later LC of the NW, he spends time with the free folk, his general demeanor. Fine. But what part is the fire. Too many people simply point to R=L but even if that is true it isn't enough. What part of him IS fire. I think it is just this...the constant flickering and destruction and recreation of himself. This is furthered with his connection to Donal Noye, his staying in his chambers and him killing the boy and letting the man be born with the fact that it is fire that is the main component of a forging or reforging. We think back to what Noye said about the brothers baratheion:

Noye explains people and their very being in terms of metal (which is normal for a blacksmith) and the different type of person is a different type of metal.

 

And here is my punch out. If Jon is Ice and Fire for the reasons listed above, and if he is the blacksmith and the sword AND if we hold to Donal Noye and people being able to be described in terms of their metal then which metal is Jon. Robert is Steel. Stannis is Iron. Renly is copper. I think the only possible conclusion is that Jon is Valyrian steel. Not too put too fine a point on it but

  • Jon has an obvious obsession with VS and fantasizes about his fathers sword
  • Jon is given Longclaw (which I am still convinced is more than meets the eye
  • Almost all of what we know about VS in the series and surely the most used VS weapon is Jon's Sword

these three show that Jon is intimately related to VS. But more than that, how is VS described? It has ripples that are the mark of a steel folded back on itself 1000 times (Jon's constant transformations) and my favorite....they are lighter, stronger and sharper than even the best castle forged steel. And that is EXACTLY what Jon is...he is a bastard and as such he is NOT castle forged steel. Robb is castle forged. He is a true born son. But Jon is, in the end, lighter, stronger and sharper than Robb. He is the Valyrian Steel to Robb's castle forged steel. Who else is castle forged steel? Alliser Throne for one. But now I am going off on a tangent.

Forged by dragons, being folded back on itself thousands of time, powerful with magic and stronger than even the best castle forged steel, Valyrian Steel, I would argue, is the metal which Jon is in the same way that Robert is the true steel.


Just some thoughts to ponder.

@YOVMO

I loved this!!!  Particularly the Ouroboros, and pointing out how he is a representation of fire, constantly changing.  I think this is what makes Jon one of the most interesting characters to me.  Right when you started in on metal comparisons, my mind jumped to VS.  Great analysis!  It's pretty cool that we have an author that gives so many layers to a story for us to discuss.  I just wish the next one was here.  6 years of waiting has been excruciating.

If you haven't already, you should consider making this a discussion topic.  Some of the stuff I've seen lately on here has been pretty weak, or just out of left field.  We're probably just running out of good topics to discuss, but this I think this is a really good one.  

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10 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

@YOVMO

I loved this!!!  Particularly the Ouroboros, and pointing out how he is a representation of fire, constantly changing.  I think this is what makes Jon one of the most interesting characters to me.  Right when you started in on metal comparisons, my mind jumped to VS.  Great analysis!  It's pretty cool that we have an author that gives so many layers to a story for us to discuss.  I just wish the next one was here.  6 years of waiting has been excruciating.

If you haven't already, you should consider making this a discussion topic.  Some of the stuff I've seen lately on here has been pretty weak, or just out of left field.  We're probably just running out of good topics to discuss, but this I think this is a really good one.  

Oh yes, it truly is a delight that there is so much wealth and layering in these pages and absolutely 6 years has been driving me nuts. As for the posts on the forum, I am laughing because I've noticed the same. Another year and it will be things like "are there barbers in westeros or do people just cut there own hair"

 

I have been writing a damn post about swords and metals for about a year now (also one about harps) and like martin just can never seem to get it out. Thanks for the good words though.

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16 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Oh yes, it truly is a delight that there is so much wealth and layering in these pages and absolutely 6 years has been driving me nuts. As for the posts on the forum, I am laughing because I've noticed the same. Another year and it will be things like "are there barbers in westeros or do people just cut there own hair"

 

I have been writing a damn post about swords and metals for about a year now (also one about harps) and like martin just can never seem to get it out. Thanks for the good words though.

Ha.  I think I've seen that topic already......or is that a PJ thing?  I think I remember now.....Something about a secret force of razor wielding assassins in collusion with Varys (hence the shaven head) aiming to take out all of the great lords.  

I'd love to see the post when you finish.  Keep up the good work!

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I was joking with my brother about this the other day that Jon "never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" 

and a warm spray of blood. He looked up and Wun Wun had his attacker in grasp, or what was left of him. More bodies lay next to him, he tried to rise "No, rest. Rest now". He saw a flash of red hair. Lucky.

Or you know, something like that, I only told my brother the bolded the rest i guess is practice for my English paper lol

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49 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I was joking with my brother about this the other day that Jon "never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …" 

and a warm spray of blood. He looked up and Wun Wun had his attacker in grasp, or what was left of him. More bodies lay next to him, he tried to rise "No, rest. Rest now". He saw a flash of red hair. Lucky.

Or you know, something like that, I only told my brother the bolded the rest i guess is practice for my English paper lol

Ummmmmm, it is real easy to check stuff out with that wonderful search site. Shame, shame, shame I say, mixing dat stuffies like dat. I hope your English paper includes citations else the teacher might be a bit miffed.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII     "Let him go," Jon shouted. "Wun Wun, let him go."   Wun Wun did not hear or did not understand. The giant was bleeding himself, with sword cuts on his belly and his arm. He swung the dead knight against the grey stone of the tower, again and again and again, until the man's head was red and pulpy as a summer melon. The knight's cloak flapped in the cold air. Of white wool it had been, bordered in cloth-of-silver and patterned with blue stars. Blood and bone were flying everywhere.       Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk, queen's men … "Form a line," Jon Snow commanded them. "Keep them back. Everyone, but especially the queen's men." The dead man was Ser Patrek of King's Mountain; his head was largely gone, but his heraldry was as distinctive as his face. Jon did not want to risk Ser Malegorn or Ser Brus or any of the queen's other knights trying to avenge him.

 

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