Iron Mother

Exonerating Littlefinger Once And For All (S05E03 TRANSCRIPT)

104 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

She wasn’t turned into livestock, it’s a figurative term and I’m surprised Littlefinger thought of proposing this match.

Do you think she deserved to be raped by Ramsay?

Do people read anymore?  I said you or those like you (who believe things with no basis in reality) were livestock. 

Not Sansa Stark.

No one deserves to be raped.  However, Littlefinger is not responsible for Ramsey.  Sansa hates him and murdered him FOR ALL THINGS RAMSEY when he was not responsible for Ramsey.

Is this hard? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I am beginning to believe (seriously now, no joke) there is some brainwashing cult out there on the internet where human beings are being secretly transformed into livestock.  I really did not understand the DEPTH of this mass confusion and error until this thread.

People really do gloss right over actual and real events to arrive at conclusions with no foundation in reality.

AT. ALL.

If one more person says Sansa was GIVEN or SOLD or PROGRAMMED or HELD AT GUNPOINT by Littlefinger to do anything I will definitely scream.

 

Calm down! That's not what I was saying. My point was that I do not to understand why Littlefinger proposed such a stupid idea as Sansa marrying into the Boltons to begin with. It was his idea, no Sansa's or anyone else's. He sought out Roose Bolton to suggest the match and convinced Sansa it was a good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

Do people read anymore?  I said you or those like you (who believe things with no basis in reality) were livestock. 

Not Sansa Stark.

No one deserves to be raped.  However, Littlefinger is not responsible for Ramsey.  Sansa hates him and murdered him FOR ALL THINGS RAMSEY when he was not responsible for Ramsey.

Is this hard? 

No, it is not hard. And YES, I do read. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I read the transcript about Sansa agreeing to Littlefinger's plan. It was a Catch-22

This thread is not interested in Sansa's numerous catch-22 situations.  This thread is interested in one thing:

Sansa Stark hated LF and had him murdered for ALL THE THINGS RAMSEY DID TO HER when LF was not responsible for anything RAMSEY BOLTON DID TO SANSA STARK.

Did you need assistance to the lobby?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

this is the thread about WHY DOES SANSA REALLY HATE LITTLEFINGER and LITTLEFINGER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR RAMSEY BOLTON.

His name is Ramsay, not Ramsey.  And to answer to your question, I don't think Sansa hated LF as much as you say. I even think she is the only one who felt something in the hall when he died. Royce hated LF for sure, Bran feels nothing anymore, and the betrayal of her parents added him to Arya's list.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you read the rest of that post you quoted? It was about Littlefinger not thinking that Ramsay was lying about good treatment of Sansa. A liar would know when another liar lies.

Plus, there were more things that people hated about Littlefinger.  Sansa just started with the ones she knew: she was witness to Littlefinger moon-dooring Lysa.

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, valgrel said:

His name is Ramsay

If I recall, you were in the lobby for not being able to accept reality.  But now you give spelling corrections.  Instead, you should understand everyone knows the difference in one letter of his name does not change the idea LF is not responsible for Ramsey's crimes toward Sansa and yet that was the reason she murdered him while lying about it publicly.

We have to make priorities here.  To spell someone's name or to seek honest conclusion.  Maybe you are DEFLECTING away from your inability to recognize honest conclusion concerning these matters............... which is why you were removed from the ride and sent to the lobby.

To whomever said "calm down" please stop living life on your phone because written emphasis =/= excited or upset.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Faera said:

I disagree. They tried to make it look like that, maybe, but it is obvious that was not what was going on during the earlier scenes. I think it was obvious, even with that edit, that it was a last minute choice to salvage what was ultimately a very poorly executed plotline for the Stark sisters - and Bran just saved them off-screen instead of onscreen.

By "spring a trap" I mean that it is obvious that they have caught Littlefinger out and have real evidence to trap him. The only reason why that scene we ended up getting worked is, again, because Littlefinger is so randomly freaked out by Bran. They didn't have any true evidence.

Nah, I think the earlier scenes do have some truth in them if you accept that siblings can be right nightmares to each other, even if they do love each other deep down. [Some] people say worse things to their siblings than they ever would to strangers. And that's without for example the real hurt feelings that Arya would have seeing her sister cosying up to someone on her List. That would piss anyone off.

Bran didn't save them though. The story could have played out as was even if Bran wasn't there at all. He just had the final nail in the coffin.

A bit of evidence I think forgotten is that Arya knew that Littlefinger was working with Tywin against the Starks because of the time she was the latter's cupbearer, and would surely have told Sansa this.

 

24 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

I will only say this one more time:

None of this is about Littlefinger's "crimes" or "sins" EXCEPT where concerning RAMSEY BOLTON AND SANSA BLAMING HIM FOR EVERYTHING RAMSEY BOLTON and that she murdered him without trial in revenge while claiming it was for all his other sins.

This thread is about Sansa Stark's real motivation for hating Littlefinger, not about what Littlefinger did.  If you want to simplify, please do a simple equation - if your math does not contain "RAMSEY BOLTON", it does not belong in this thread.  There may be many threads out there JUDGING Littlefinger for every crime/sin on Earth, this is the thread about WHY DOES SANSA REALLY HATE LITTLEFINGER and LITTLEFINGER IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR RAMSEY BOLTON.

Might you pass the word around on that?  Thank you, good sister.

Why is the fact that he helped kill her father before her eyes not motivation enough to execute him? Ramsay was not included in her list of his 'many crimes'.

Here is a list of people in Game of Thrones that have killed someone without a trial... everyone except Missandei.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Iron Mother said:

If I recall, you were in the lobby for not being able to accept reality.  But now you give spelling corrections.  Instead, you should understand everyone knows the difference in one letter of his name does not change the idea LF is not responsible for Ramsey's crimes toward Sansa and yet that was the reason she murdered him while lying about it publicly.

We have to make priorities here.  To spell someone's name or to seek honest conclusion.  Maybe you are DEFLECTING away from your inability to recognize honest conclusion concerning these matters............... which is why you were removed from the ride and sent to the lobby.

To whomever said "calm down" please stop living life on your phone because written emphasis =/= excited or upset.

- She didn't hate him

- She didn't murder him

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Daske said:

Nah, I think the earlier scenes do have some truth in them if you accept that siblings can be right nightmares to each other, even if they do love each other deep down. [Some] people say worse things to their siblings than they ever would to strangers. And that's without for example the real hurt feelings that Arya would have seeing her sister cosying up to someone on her List. That would piss anyone off.

Bran didn't save them though. The story could have played out as was even if Bran wasn't there at all. He just had the final nail in the coffin.

A bit of evidence I think forgotten is that Arya knew that Littlefinger was working with Tywin against the Starks because of the time she was the latter's cupbearer, and would surely have told Sansa this.

 

Why is the fact that he helped kill her father before her eyes not motivation enough to execute him? Ramsay was not included in her list of his 'many crimes'.

Here is a list of people in Game of Thrones that have killed someone without a trial... everyone except Missandei.

 

The Bolton’s weren’t brought up until the end, when Littlefinger begged for his life saying that he loved her and her mother. He showed how much he cared by arranging that marriage... a real bunch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Sansa Stark hated LF and had him murdered for ALL THE THINGS RAMSEY DID TO HER when LF was not responsible for anything RAMSEY BOLTON DID TO SANSA STARK.

During the scene in the great hall, Sansa enlists all of LF crimes against her family. It would be unfair to say that she had him executed for what Ramsay did to her.

If Sansa holds LF responsible for what happened to her, I understand. While it may not be fair, he did arrange the marriage for his own gains, not for Sansa's betterment. She has every right to hold it against LF.

But all the same, she didn't execute him for having her marry Ramsay.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

 Sansa hates him and murdered him FOR ALL THINGS RAMSEY

where the fuck is that in the script lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

This, if I'm not mistaken, also violates Guest Right.

The King in The North Jon Snow ordered LF to get out of Winterfell, and not to touch Sansa. LF ignored this, thus it's his own fault. He should have went away, when master of the castle told him that he's no longer welcomed there.

21 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

No mention was made of the fact that he saved Sandra and Jon and liberated Winterfell by marching in with the Vale Army,

He did it not for North's sake, he did it for himself. So when Bran told everyone about LF's real motives, then even Knights of The Vale, stopped obeying him.

Quote

Given the life-saving assistance provided by LF to the Starks in recent seasons, I would have thought banishing him would be an appropriate punishment (similar to what Dany did to Jorah). Even making him take the black (as both Tyrion and Ned were given the chance to do) would seem to be a bit harsh. But murdering him? LF seemed like the victim in this storyline; Jon and Sandra both treated him like rubbish, despite his attempts to give Sandra more good advice and him giving his dagger to Bran.

All help that he ever gave to Starks, was to get profit from it for himself. Even that dagger he gave to Bran, because he wanted to bribe him, to win the boy over with a cool present - same thing he did when he brought hunting falcon, and gave it as a birthday present to Robin Arryn. In exchange for that bird he got Knights of The Vale. Robin is Lord of The Vale, it was HIS troops that aided Jon during Battle of Bastards. They fought for Jon and Sansa, fought to return Winterfell to Starks, not because LF ordered them, but because their Lord Robin Arryn said them to help Sansa.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SecretWeapon said:

where the fuck is that in the script lol

Nowhere

Edited by jcmontea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

On top of that, LF went out of his way to make sure she was as protected as possible, reminding her Stannis was coming and if she just ENDURED SOME HARDSHIP she would be safe soon as Stannis would never harm her.

REALLY? Went out of his way? That's just :laugh:

Are you really that delusional about Little Finger?

All he had to do, to keep her as protected as possible, is to leave her at the Eyrie fortress, as Alayne Stone, with her hair dyed black. Lannisters would have never found her there.

The only reason why he took Sansa away from The Vale, and brought her back to Winterfell, is because he wanted to marry her off to Ramsay. He himself, gave her as a hostage to Ramsay, to be able later, under pretence of saving her, to acquire Vale's troops from Robin, furthermore with his blessing.

20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

ALL THIS as opposed to the mewling Sansa supporters who take every opportunity to take up arms for Sansa in all her bad decisions.... and who never even consider the idea she had him murdered based wholly on revenge for Ramsey when he was completely innocent of that mess ENTIRELY.

Where did you get an idea that she killed LF because of Ramsay, or what Ramsay did to her? She killed him for betraying The North. The North is general - playing part in Ned's death, killing Lysa, giving to her poison to kill Jon Arryn, etc.

"SANSA: You stand accused of murder. You stand accused of treason. How do you answer these charges Lord Baelish?

ARYA: My sister asked you a question.

LF: Lady Sansa, forgive me I'm a bit confused.

SANSA: Which charges confuse you? Let's start with the simplest one you murdered our aunt, Lysa Arryn. You pushed her through the Moon Door and watched her fall. Do you deny it?

LF: I did it to protect you.

SANSA: You did it to take power in the Vale. Earlier, you conspired to murder Jon Arryn. You gave Lysa Tears of Lys to poison him. Do you deny it?

LF: Whatever your aunt might have told you she was a troubled woman. She imagined enemies everywhere.

SANSA: You had Aunt Lysa send a letter to our parents telling them it was the Lannisters who murdered Jon Arryn when, really, it was you. The conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, it was you who started it. Do you deny it?

LF: I know of no such letter.

SANSA: You conspired with Cersei Lannister and Joffrey Baratheon to betray our father, Ned Stark. Thanks to your treachery, he was imprisoned and later executed on false charges of treason. - Do you deny it?

LF: - I deny it! None of you were there to see what happened. None of you knows the truth.

BRAN: You held a knife to his throat. You said, "I did warn you not to trust me. "

SANSA: You told our mother this knife belonged to Tyrion Lannister. But that was another one of your lies. It was yours.

LF: Lady Sansa, I have known you since you were a girl. - I've protected you.

SANSA: - Protected me? By selling me to the Boltons?

LF: If we could speak alone, I can explain everything.

SANSA: Sometimes when I'm trying to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason you have for turning me against my sister? That's what you do, isn't it? That's what you've always done turn family against family, turn sister against sister. That's what you did to our mother and Aunt Lysa, and that's what you tried to do to us.

LF: Sansa, please.

SANSA: I'm a slow learner, it's true. But I learn.

LF: Give me a chance to defend myself. I deserve that.

I am Lord Protector of the Vale and I command you to escort me safely back to the Eyrie.

LORD ROYCE: I think not.

LF: Sansa, I beg you! I loved your mother since the time I was a boy.

SANSA: And yet, you betrayed her.

LF: I loved you. More than anyone.

SANSA: And yet, you betrayed me. When you brought me back to Winterfell, you told me there's no justice in the world, not unless we make it. Thank you for all your many lessons, Lord Baelish. I will never forget them."

So as you can see, Sansa didn't even mentioned anything about Ramsay, not until LF had enough audacity and impudence to say - "I've protected you.", to which she retorted - "Protected me? By selling me to the Boltons?".

She accused him of:

1. murder - "you murdered our aunt, Lysa Arryn.", "you conspired to murder Jon Arryn. You gave Lysa Tears of Lys to poison him."

2. treason - "You had Aunt Lysa send a letter to our parents telling them it was the Lannisters who murdered Jon Arryn when, really, it was you. The conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters, it was you who started it.", "You conspired with Cersei Lannister and Joffrey Baratheon to betray our father, Ned Stark. Thanks to your treachery, he was imprisoned and later executed on false charges of treason.", "You told our mother this knife belonged to Tyrion Lannister."

So where's accusations from her for 'everything Ramsay'? There's NONE.

And I'm not even one of Sansa's fans, I think that she's a stupid and spineless cow, whose best asset is her looks. <- Sorry for this to Sansa's fans.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

The sins of Sansa include:


- Abortion

What? Where did you get that? When and where is it mentioned?

Anyway, what's the interest of thread so inflamed about one of the most badly written plot of the series, where LF, the great schemer waits patiently while twirling his moustache that something happens to him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Sansa went along and conspired with LF in EVERYTHING she had him murdered for............ until she had the chance to exact revenge on him for everything RAMSEY

Did Sansa conspired with LF to kill Jon Arryn? - No, she didn't. When Jon Arryn died, Sansa haven't even met LF yet.

Did Sansa conspired with LF to kill her father? - No, she didn't. The only active part she even took in other's plotting, is that she agreed to write a letter to Robb, when Cersei asked her.

Did Sansa conspired with LF to kill her aunt? - No, she didn't. It was LF who kissed her. Probably he also intentionally did it there, and then, because he was aware that Lysa is nearby, thus she will see them. He intentionally manipulated Lysa to harm Sansa, to arrive there like a knight in a shining armor, and to save Sansa from her crazy aunt. It was HIM who intentionally made Sansa his accomplice in Lysa's murder, to make her think that she can't stay in The Vale after what happened between them, that she isn't safe there, and that Vales people could blame her for what happened.

20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

At Moat Cailin she was held by the hand by LF and explained to her WHY it was a "opportunity" to avenge her family by marrying Ramsey and she could have jumped into the moat or killed herself but she went anyway.  LF held no crossbow to her when she got dressed in her finest linens to say the words to Ramsey.  At every turn LF was protecting her and trying TO protect her.

OH. MY. GOD.  THIS. WOW.

20 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

Had Sansa EVER used her own power... had she sliced LFs neck herself instead of sending Arya to do it

Yes, Sansa is the kind of person that uses others to do her own work. LF was well aware of this trait, so he tried to manipulate Sansa into using Brienne against Arya.

Also he was the one who gave that dagger to Starks family.

Serves him right, that he was killed with the same weapon, that he planned to use against them, he gave it to Bran to plant enmity between siblings.

Quote

On top of that, she used all the crimes of LF - the ones she was complicit in through silence - as a mask to have him killed when it was really about revenge for Ramsey.

No, it wasn't. Furthermore by that point in time, she already has dealt with Ramsay. And that was one of those few things that she did by herself - to feed him to dogs was her own idea.

Quote

The transcript I included her proves he did not know. 

He lied. Do you really don't get it?

He knew that Ramsay was a perverted sadist. He knew what Sansa was getting into. Or more like in what LF was getting her into.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

LF deserving to die/answer for his crimes is one thing.  Sansa murdering someone in revenge based in things that man did not do is another thing.

You are right and I believe I nicely done exactly that.

Sansa did not murder him, but let him execute for crimes he really committed. Trials and executions were simplied in Westeros. Think about the opening scene with a Nightwatch deserter being decapitated or Brienne executing Stannis.

Sansa's motivation for a fast trial and immediate execution certainly is based on her revenge because of Ramsay, but most probably also because of LF playing her and Arya with his mean schemes. While Sansa's motives might be controverse, the execution itself is not.

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

you can see Sansa for the hypocrite she is and liar.

Hm, that is too hard on her -- and I am no fan of Sansa. She is stupid, naive, spineless. Yes, she lied when necessary and to her avail. I don't like these traits. 

9 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

The sins of Sansa include:

- Murder
- Killing
- Despotism
- Treason
- High Treachery
- Abortion
- Using underlings to carry out her bent will
- Forsaking the code of Ned and Catelyn Stark
- Disavowing the sacred oath of Guest Rite
- Offering no trial to an accused

Honestly, that is too much. However, I am interested to learn about the "abortion" theory. Where was this mentioned? Please provide details!

With regards of "no trial", see above and compare with Ned decapitating the Nightwatch's deserter. LF's execution is seen as valid and proper by the common people present. We have to accept this style.

Please elaborate on treason, too.

Concerning the "sacred oath of guest" I believe you misunderstood this rite. Guest status does not mean you cannot be accused, tried and executed (cf. Ned Stark by Joffrey) but that you don't abuse inviting guests to attack and trick them. That is what Walder Frey did to the Starks. Without trial, without accusations, just for his own sick plans he played host and was really setting up his trap.

Edited by Kajjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

However, Littlefinger is not responsible for Ramsey.  Sansa hates him and murdered him FOR ALL THINGS RAMSEY

Please consider Sansa executing LF for playing Arya and Sansa against each other. Sansa finally realised the sick schemes of LF.

I don't deny that the Ramsay issue might have fueled her revenge, but if she wanted to execute LF for Ramsay only, she could have done so a lot earlier. No, she executed him after realising he wanted to break thre Sansa-Arya bond. That was finally too much to tolerate.

And no, I am not a Sansa fan. She is naive and stupid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

LF deserved to die.  But maybe so does Sansa.  And it was certainly the most idiotic shit for him to die at her command. 

For him to die at her command, was a logical outcome of his plotting.

He made two sisters to go against each other - Lysa and Cat, and later Sansa and Arya.

He intentionally planted that letter for Arya to find, he wanted to set her against Sansa. But also he made it known to Sansa, that Arya is her enemy, and she wants to harm her, and thus to stop Arya, Sansa should use Brienne.

LF was the one who gave that dagger to Starks, he also was the one who dragged Arya into Winterfell's politics. He was the one who turned her into active participant of his plans. So it's only fair that to defend herself from LF's further intrigues, and to finally punish him for everything that he did, Sansa used Arya, and the same weapon that LF gave them.

Bassically LF himself put that dagger into Arya's hand.

17 hours ago, Iron Mother said:

How did Sansa earn anything? 

Your problem is that you're mixing together totally different things.

LF's punishment is a result of his evil deeds. He died because it was time to pay for everything bad he did. And Sansa isn't responsible for his sins. It's just happened so, that she became the one who sentenced him, and her sister the one who executed him. But that also was outcome of his own plotting. Though unfortunately for him, this time, people against whom he was plotting, had on their side an all-knowing being, i.e. Bran the 3ER.

LF was the one who manipulated Sansa to gather people for that trial. Though he thought that the one who will be judged will be Arya, and not him. And he also gave to their family the very same weapon, with which he was executed.

There's a saying - "He that mischief hatches, mischief catches."

He brought his own demise. He dug his own grave.

If you don't like the way he died, blame Little Finger for it - he's the one who planned it. The only deviation from his plan, is that he became victim of it, and not Arya, as he originally plotted. LF was your favourite character, you liked him. He was smart and cunning. So be glad - his death was caused by his own marvelous plan.

But Sansa and her deeds are totally different matter. Sooner or later she will also pay for her own mistakes.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.