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Angel Eyes

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13 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why is Catelyn Stark such a jerk to Jon Snow? 

A serious case of the "Cinderella effect".

From the moment she got to Winterfell with Robb, she found that Ned had already set-up baby Jon there with his wetnurse. He wouldn't tell her where he'd come from, only that "he is my blood" and that was it. When she broached the subject, he told her to "never ask about Jon". Eddard was incredibly protective of Jon and raised him alongside Cat's children. Then, to add insult to injury, Jon looked more like Ned than any of her own sons.

I get how Ned's refusal to even speak about Jon's origins and leave it all to her imagination was harsh. That said, Cat is one of the few characters I genuinely disliked from beginning to end, even when I was sympathising with her. A huge part of that was born out of how needlessly cruel and mean-spirited she was towards Jon. It is clear from Jon's early chapter where he is confronted with Cat that she was often cold towards him, driving him to tears when he was younger. While I get it must be hard for her, I can't help but think she was a nasty piece of work for not even holding her piece for the sake of a little boy who was so loved by her children.

But yeah, that's pretty much why.

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Yeah, and she didn't even want to be under the same roof as Jon. Didn't understand her reasons for not legitimizing Jon by citing the Blackfyres, since the Blackfyres and Bittersteel seemed to be the exception rather than the norm.

"It should have been you."

Dick move, Catelyn. Dick move.

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why is Catelyn Stark such a jerk to Jon Snow? 

It is a woman thawg.

My father married twice after a mutually agreeable divorce from my mother. It takes a mature man to say, “This is my kid, STFU. If you are so frekking insecure about our marriage we have a problem.”

As it relates to Cat and Eddard. It is kind of the same. Eddard told her not to snoop into the who Jon’s mother is gossip. Cat was so wound up with status she saw Jon as a threat to her and Eddard’s kids.

I’ll cut her some slack. She didn’t know that Jon was Eddard’s nephew.

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37 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

What's a thawg?

And when was Jon a threat to her and Ned's kids?

You did ask why

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why is Catelyn Stark such a jerk to Jon Snow? 

I'm merely helping you stir the pot.

I'll come back tomorrow iffin' you be wantin' a serious answer. :devil:

 

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40 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And when was Jon a threat to her and Ned's kids?

You could say that the Blackfyres inspired her concern, but we can look at real-life history; noble women, and queens, generally disliked mistresses, not because their husband was unfaithful, but because any and all children a mistress had with a married man could stake a claim into his inheritance. Bastards didn't have an automatic claim, but if their father favoured them over his children with his wife, he could actually give them a nice sum of wealth or even make them his successor. History is filled with instances where this occurred.

Catelyn dislikes Jon in part because he is proof that Ned was unfaithful to her, which stings because she does genuinely love him, but it is mostly because Jon is a legitimate threat to her own children's claim to the North, because of his looks (he looks more like Ned than any of Catelyn's children) and because everyone and their mother knows that Jon is "of Ned's blood", so few would question his paternity. If Jon was only a little bit more popular among the other lords and really wanted Winterfell, he could very well just have tried to gain allies in taking Winterfell and might've been successful.

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Mortality rates come into it as well, Cat has 3 sons, so Jon could be concidered 4th ahead of the girls.

Bran is a cripple is Jon now 3rd?

Ned Arya Bran and Rickon all dead, Sansa in the Lannisters power Jon becomes number 1 and worse he is to be legitimized and released from the 1 institution Cat thought he would keep him childless and landless.

Her fears are real Jon gos from a bastard with no claim to a bastard no claim sworn to the night's watch to Robbs heir in short order.

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Why is Catelyn Stark such a jerk to Jon Snow? 

She hates what he represents--her anger with Ned. Catelyn projects all her disappointment and embarrassment onto Jon because she cannot admit the depth of her emotions to Ned. She doesn't want Jon in her life, and if she had her way, he would not have any relationship with her children.

It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the true born sons she bore him. Somehow that made it wrong. (Game of Thrones, pg. 66)

She cannot reconcile what she understands as Ned's infidelity. Not only does Jon look like Ned, but he has similar personality traits. He is quiet and observant. His sullenness comes more from being reminded constantly that he is a bastard born, so he will never have the same rights as Robb, Bran, and Rickon. If Jon had been raised as a true born son, the sullenness may not have needed to be there.

Catelyn also worries about Jon's influence over her children's future. This is why she is so relieved when he joins the Night's Watch.

Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren from Winterfell. (Game of Thrones, pg. 66)

Catelyn has a lot of conflicted emotions. On one hand, she is decent enough to know that Jon Snow is not to blame for his existence. Yet she cannot reconcile that Ned treats him like a son, instead of ignoring his bastard born children like his friend, Robert Baratheon. She sees him as a potential threat to what she understands as rightfully hers: her children and their heirs. It is very much a mother's reaction about the preservation of her line.

So I wouldn't call it hate, even though she tells him that she thought he, not Bran, should have been the one who had the fall off the cliff. That was fear and raw emotion talking. If she hated him, she wouldn't have wept after she said those terrible words.

Catelyn is a proud woman who feels insulted by Jon. As accomplished as she is, she is still subservient to the rules for wives of Lords. She cannot feel good about Jon, but her real anger is against Ned and the system that allows a man to raise a bastard son in the presence of his wife and other children. She is displacing her rage onto Jon Snow and if her thoughts on Jon are any indication she knows this.

 
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4 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Mortality rates come into it as well, Cat has 3 sons, so Jon could be concidered 4th ahead of the girls.

Bran is a cripple is Jon now 3rd?

Ned Arya Bran and Rickon all dead, Sansa in the Lannisters power Jon becomes number 1 and worse he is to be legitimized and released from the 1 institution Cat thought he would keep him childless and landless.

Her fears are real Jon gos from a bastard with no claim to a bastard no claim sworn to the night's watch to Robbs heir in short order.

None of this was a factor when Jon was growing up, though.

Besides, Jon really doesn't come into the line of succession at all. As a bastard, his claim is would automatically be weaker than even Sansa and Arya's. While uncommon, it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to inherit the stronghold and marry a man willing to take her name, in order to keep the line going. That's why marrying Sansa was such a coup in the first place, it's why the Boltons wanted the world to believe they had the real Arya. Even if Jon were legitimised, he would come after the legitimate children. Definitely Bran and Rickon.

Being a cripple doesn't shove Bran out of the succession, either. As of right now, he is the de facto Lord of Winterfell and as long as there is a chance he can father children, he's de facto Lord of Winterfell. Also, we don't know Rickon is dead. If Bran dies or declines the seat, it's Rickon. If Rickon died on Skargos, it's Sansa and so on. The only way Jon is claiming anything is if he went to war and actively chose to remove his siblings, which he would never do as his family has always been his weak spot.

Cat may well have feared he would do this but I think it is more paranoia about Jon than any serious threat.

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@Angel Eyes Perhaps because the Tullys claim to place Family and Duty before Honour.

Cat doesn't really view Jon as family. She feels her duty is to her kin, aswell as to highborn Westerosi ideals, and Jon's parentage is a "stain" on her prim and perfect view of what she wants from a marriage.

She could honour her husband and Jon's siblings more by making life a bit easier for the bastard, but for selfish reasons chooses otherwise.

In all honesty, Sandor's "trained bird" description of Sansa would fit Cat too. She displays clear bigotry towards bastards, as is the want of many highborn nobles - look at the way she first percieves Mya Stone, although she does seem to warm toward Robert's bastard towards the end of the mule trail.

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

None of this was a factor when Jon was growing up, though.

Besides, Jon really doesn't come into the line of succession at all. As a bastard, his claim is would automatically be weaker than even Sansa and Arya's. While uncommon, it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to inherit the stronghold and marry a man willing to take her name, in order to keep the line going. That's why marrying Sansa was such a coup in the first place, it's why the Boltons wanted the world to believe they had the real Arya. Even if Jon were legitimised, he would come after the legitimate children. Definitely Bran and Rickon.

Being a cripple doesn't shove Bran out of the succession, either. As of right now, he is the de facto Lord of Winterfell and as long as there is a chance he can father children, he's de facto Lord of Winterfell. Also, we don't know Rickon is dead. If Bran dies or declines the seat, it's Rickon. If Rickon died on Skargos, it's Sansa and so on. The only way Jon is claiming anything is if he went to war and actively chose to remove his siblings, which he would never do as his family has always been his weak spot.

Cat may well have feared he would do this but I think it is more paranoia about Jon than any serious threat.

Not saying you are wrong, you may as well be right, but is there any example that proofs for sure that a legitimised bastard comes after a woman, or even younger brothers in the sucession line? 

And even if we had some cases of it, these bastard legitimizations and women inhereting cases are always out of place, like, some king just decided to do it because he wanted or needed. So they shitted to any the traditional rules of bastardly and great conseul decisions, and often these actions started sucession wars, like the dance of dragons and the Blackfyre rebellion as major examples.

And shit, in westros they even consider Maegor a true King for fuck's sake! He had the same right as his father on the lands, yeah, the right of conquest, he was stronger than Aenys, as Valyrians with dragons was stronger than Andals and First Men, and we don't even know the inheritance rules of old Valyria, but shit he just took the crown while his nephew was still alive, how come that he was a true king then?

So here is what i think, it can be wrong though: Cat feared that Jon would be a traitor (because most bastards are deemed as traitors in westros culture) and try to start a new inheritance line by eliminating everyone before him in line even without being legitimised.

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