TMIFairy

Where does "Benjen helped Lyanna elope" bullshit come from?

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Posted (edited)

I often come across mentions that Bejen was somehow involved in "Lyanna running away with Rhaegar"?

Where does this belief come from? Is it from the mummery?

Leaving aside the kidnapped versus eloped issue, how exactly could Benjen be involved with the event, seeing that he was at Winterfel at that time, some 1300 miles/2100 km away from Riverrun?

This distance is in the ballpark of:

London to Istambul.

Or Boston to New Orleans.

Or Buenos Aires to Rio de Janeiro ...

Or am I simply ignorant?

Edited by TMIFairy

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I've seen people use it for explaining why Benjen joined the NW so quick after the war ended. I personally don't think Benjen was involved at all.

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there is a theory that lyanna and benjen are closer to each other so he knew lyanna loved rhaegar madly. yet he failed to tell his dad and big brothers that lyanna might not be "kidnapped". 

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It would explain the reasons for the heir of Winterfel at the time (IIRC he joined before Robb was born) joining te Nights Watch and his lack of mention during the Rebellion. 

Although I don't believe it myself I think it's seen as him punishing himself for helping Lyanna die by helping to 'cause' the Rebellion and him helping to get with the man that resulted somehow in her death. 

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

I often come across mentions that Bejen was somehow involved in "Lyanna running away with Rhaegar"?

Where does this belief come from? Is it from the mummery?

Leaving aside the kidnapped versus eloped issue, how exactly could Benjen be involved with the event, seeing that he was at Winterfel at that time, some 1300 miles/2100 km away from Riverrun?

This distance is in the ballpark of:

London to Istambul.

Or Boston to New Orleans.

Or Buenos Aires to Rio de Janeiro ...

Or am I simply ignorant?

Prepare your tin foil.....

Benjen assisted Rhaegar and Lyanna in hiding in the Crypts of Winterfell while everyone else was fighting in the rebellion.

That's the reason why he was sent to the Wall.

Edited by Ahl of the House Cutler

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Posted (edited)

On 10/9/2017 at 10:21 AM, TMIFairy said:

I often come across mentions that Bejen was somehow involved in "Lyanna running away with Rhaegar"?

Where does this belief come from? Is it from the mummery?

Or am I simply ignorant?

when there is more than a half a decade between book releases, people fantasize. This is why Dario and euron are everyone, Mance is Rhaegar, the others are misunderstood good guys and a 10 year old bran is the most evil person in the story. Idiocy grows and spreads in a lack of new content for an unfinished work 

Edited by Dorian Martell's son

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There are a bunch of ridiculous theories, but I can't say I have ever heard this one, let alone often. I have seen people suggest that Benjen might have been privy to more information about feelings or plans between Lyanna and Rhaegar, but that isn't so far fetched.

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Posted (edited)

52 minutes ago, Ethelarion said:

It would explain the reasons for the heir of Winterfel at the time (IIRC he joined before Robb was born) joining te Nights Watch and

1 - his lack of mention during the Rebellion. 

2 - Although I don't believe it myself I think it's seen as him punishing himself for helping Lyanna die by helping to 'cause' the Rebellion and him helping to get with the man that resulted somehow in her death. 

1 - he was the "Stark in Winterfell", Ned's regent

2 - OK

36 minutes ago, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Prepare your tin foil.....

Benjen assisted Rhaegar and Lyanna in hiding in the Crypts of Winterfell while everyone else was fighting in the rebellion.

That's the reason why he was sent to the Wall.

LOL!

And thanks everybody for answering.

Edited by TMIFairy

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7 minutes ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - he was the "Stark in Winterfell", Ned's regent

Ned's regent, heh? So, Ned would have to be the Lord of Winterfell? Which would mean Rickard dead, and Brandon dead?

OK. But, what did and where was Benjen before? Like, say, around the time of the Lyanna incident (whatever the hell that was)?

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18 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

OK. But, what did and where was Benjen before? Like, say, around the time of the Lyanna incident (whatever the hell that was)?

 Where do Benjens go?

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Do we know for a fact that Benjen was the designated "Stark in Winterfell" even before the rebellion kicked off, or could he also have been on his way to the wedding?

Regardless, I think fans are simply speculating as to why Benjen may have known that Lyanna had happened to run off with Rhaegar before she left Winterfell. As to why Benjen of all people if the one she confided in? I suppose it's because you get the sense Lyanna and Benjen were closer to each other than they were to the older brothers. Bran has a vision of what appears to be him and Lyanna as children playing in the Godswood, "The Pup" teased the "Wolf Maid" for crying at the Rhaegar's song, and there is the fact he immediately joined the Night's Watch soon after Eddard got back to Winterfell, following Lyanna's death.

It's all circumstantial but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it is revealed later that Benjen is a character "in the know" about what really went on or why Lyanna really went with Rhaegar.

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2 minutes ago, Faera said:

It's all circumstantial but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if it is revealed later that Benjen is a character "in the know" about what really went on or why Lyanna really went with Rhaegar.

I agree with this.  I submit that it is ENTIRELY possible for Benjen to be "in the know"  about Lyanna and Rhaegar without having been party to any of the events. 

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I don’t have the app. Hopefully someone can/will verify this ---- Brandon left Riverrun to meet up with papa Stark who was on his way from WF to Riverrun to attend Brandon’s & Cat’s wedding. Brandon received the news of Lyanna’s [fill in the blank].

It is not clear whether Benjen, after the tourney at Harrenhal returned to WF or stayed with Lyanna.

If Benjen was with Lyanna, if they were on their way to RR for Brandon’s wedding when Lyanna was [fill in the blank] Benjen may have information of what happened. If Benjen was with Laynna it is possible that Benjen was the one to carry the word to Brandon of Lyanna’s [fill in the blank]. Add Howland into that mess and have fine pot of goulash.

It could also be said that Lord Stark didn’t attend the Harrenhal tourney because he was the Stark in WF and Lord Stark did not leave WF to attend the wedding of Brandon until Benjen returned home making Benjen the Stark in WF until Lord Rickard returned.

There is also the remark Benjen made to Jon during King Robert’s feast “Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"     Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity." He put a hand on Jon's shoulder.” Full context can be found in A Game of Thrones - Jon I    . Then later in the story after Benjen & Jon arrive at the Wall Benjen goes ranging and “poof” he disappears.

The below SSM of 2005 simply states Benjen joined the NW a few months after Eddard’s return from warring. 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/ConQuest_Kansas_City_MO_May_27_294

6) When, specifically, did Benjen join the NW? Was it a couple of years after Ned returned, or immediately?

It was within a few months of Ned's returning. The reason being that there always was a Stark at Winterfell, so he had to stay there until Ned returned. GRRM refused to say the reason why Benjen had to join the NW.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

when there is more than a half a decade between book releases, people fantasize. This is why Dario and euron are everyone, Mance is Rhaegar, the others are misunderstood good guys a 10 year old bran is the most evil person in the story. Idiocy grows and spreads in a lack of new content for an unfinished work 

The best explanation I've read of all the bizarre theories that spread everywhere. :D

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1 - "Ned's regent" - I was referring to the time of Robert's Rebellion

2 - good people - a year and a half/two years passes between the Harenhall Tournament and the planned Brandon/Catelyn wedding. Enough time to go from Harrenhall to Castle Black and back. Thrice ...

3 - at the time of Lyann's kidnapping, the Starks are:

- Lyanna in Riverrun (kidnapped just outside it)

- Brandon in Riverrun (had just given Baelish a manly scar across the chest)

- Rickard somewhere in the Riverlands (shows up in KL soon after Brandon)

- Eddard in the Vale (Eyrie?)

Hence Benjen had to be in Winterfell ...

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We don't know he was at Winterfell at the time. We only know he was at Winterfell during Robert's Rebellion.

The theory that Benjen knew at least something about the liaison for me lies somewhere in the realm of possible to probable.

1. Wouldn't she have told someone something if she was running off with her lover, if only to assure them she was okay?

2. Best bet in that case is Benjen.  Martin was at pains to show they were close siblings, and that when they misbehaved they had a pact not to tell, "dont tell father", like many siblings do.

3. What did Benjen 'not tell' so his sister didnt get into more trouble? Perhaps that she went willingly?

4. Why does Ned say Benjen felt guilty?  That line is never explained.

Following from above, then, it's possible that Benjen knew she went willingly, didn't tell, and as a consequence his brother and father were burned to death and Roberts Rebellion began. Thus his guilt and even taking the Black.

Lots of ifs.. just a theory, but it makes sense to me.  Also, the trope of the message gone awry or the miscommunicated message or unreliable messenger is almost a stock conceit in the romantic stories that Martin based this one on, so it would not surprise me in the least in terms of story structure either.

All conjecture, of course, but in terms of GOT speculation, much likelier than many others I have read!

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No one has given me any feedback on the app quote yet. :tantrum:

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

1 - "Ned's regent" - I was referring to the time of Robert's Rebellion

Eddard wouldn’t have a regent .After the death of his father & brother Eddard became Lord WF. WF would have a castellan with Benjen filling in as Bran did for Robb.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

2 - good people - a year and a half/two years passes between the Harenhall Tournament and the planned Brandon/Catelyn wedding. Enough time to go from Harrenhall to Castle Black and back. Thrice ...

There are no time line references between the false spring in 281 and 283 when the Rebellion ended. It is easy to look at the dates and do some subtracting.  Two years, except when I start trying to  figure out what happened when between the time of the false spring and Raeghar's tower of Joy it gets wonky.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

3 - at the time of Lyann's kidnapping, the Starks are:

- Lyanna in Riverrun (kidnapped just outside it)

I thought when Lyanna was [fill in the blank] she was near Harrenhal. I've been wrong before.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

- Brandon in Riverrun (had just given Baelish a manly scar across the chest)

Interesting. Brandon bloodied LF after the Harrenhal tourney? Whoa, I had not thought of that. I assumed it was before. My curiosity has been aroused because this ties in with Hoster working Lysa into the deal to provide troops to support the rebellion.  I’m thinking the Tully girls were married after the Battle of the Bells/Stoney Sept.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

- Rickard somewhere in the Riverlands (shows up in KL soon after Brandon)

Iffy, but yes, the raven or rider would need to find Rickard with the summons from the King to come answer for his sons behavior. When he arrived at KL both he and Brandon were killed and the King called for Eddard’s and Robert’s head.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

- Eddard in the Vale (Eyrie?)

Yes, since he had to make his way over hill and dale and water and land to get to WF to call the banners after the death of his father and brother. And as a bonus the story told to Davos about Eddard getting the fisherman’s daughter preggers.

1 hour ago, TMIFairy said:

Hence Benjen had to be in Winterfell ...

Ummmm, I dunna know, but yes, by time all that stuff happened Benjen would be at WF.  :grouphug:

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

1 - Eddard wouldn’t have a regent .After the death of his father & brother Eddard became Lord WF. WF would have a castellan with Benjen filling in as Bran did for Robb.

2 - I thought when Lyanna was [fill in the blank] she was near Harrenhal. I've been wrong before.

3 - Interesting. Brandon bloodied LF after the Harrenhal tourney? Whoa, I had not thought of that. I assumed it was before.

 

1 - OK - not necessarily "regent". Benjen was 15 at the most, so could had been a placeholder like Bran.

2 - I was wrong (again). According to ASOIAF wiki - "30 miles out of Harrenhall".

3 - yes, the duel took place in 282AC, a few weeks before the wedding was to take place. The tournament definitely was in 281.

 

Edited by TMIFairy

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Is there a chance Lyanna and Benjen were fostered out like Ned and Brandon had been? I know it's not something that's really mentioned with girls but I can think of 4 instances with the Princess of Dorne, Joanna Lannister, Rhaelle Targaryen and Arianne who was an almost case. I know that two of these were done/near done because of marriage. If Lyanna was fostered out to some house in the riverlands, then it changes a lot of things, I think.

2 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

4. Why does Ned say Benjen felt guilty?  That line is never explained.

I very honestly don't remember this line at all, so if you could point me, I'd appreciate it!

Could his guilt come from something else? A little baby, barely a few months old has arrived at Winterfell and he has already lost both his parents. And he is being passed off as a bastard and this boy's life will always be steeped in lies because his true identity is danger to his very life. If Ned isn't planning to tell Jon the truth ever, then Jon will live his whole life thinking he's a bastard, not knowing who his mother is or believing that she didn't love him enough to keep him. That's not just guilt, that's also painful as hell and very conflicting. Jon grew up with the story that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna and raped her. That's a lot of damage done if and when he finds out the truth. 

When Jon tells Ben he wants to join the NW and Ben starts arguing against it, Jon's reply is that Maester Luwin says that bastards grow up faster than other children (yay, westerosi science, I guess), Benjen doesn't seem happy with what Maester Luwin said. 

I don't know how much Benjen knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar, but I'm assuming he knew just enough to come to his own conclusions. I'm not sure that he helped anything, especially since those two don't even seem to be together when Lyanna vanishes. And I always assumed that Rickard being summoned to King's Landing meant that he received a raven at Winterfell before he was set to travel, and he might even have received a heads up from Hoster Tully that Brandon was headed to King's Landing and we know he was pissed with Brandon's actions.

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17 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

When Jon tells Ben he wants to join the NW and Ben starts arguing against it, Jon's reply is that Maester Luwin says that bastards grow up faster than other children (yay, westerosi science, I guess), Benjen doesn't seem happy with what Maester Luwin said. 

 Point of order:  I am basically 100% certain that Luwin meant they grow up faster because of the hardships that come with their social status.  They are faced with realities of their possible future prospects, and their more complex family dynamic, at a younger age, especially when people go around reminding everyone of the cultural bias against bastards.

 

I really do not think he meant that they literally physically mature faster.  That is the sort of answer  a kind and smart person would give a curious and sad kid, that would satisfy their understanding until they were old enough to detect the nuances.

 

Luwin was pretty smart. And very kind.

Edited by Reekazoid

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