TMIFairy

Where does "Benjen helped Lyanna elope" bullshit come from?

48 posts in this topic

Benjen may have just wanted to leave Winterfell because it reminded him of the siblings and father he just lost. There probably wasn't too many places in Winterfell that didn't remind Benjen of his recently deceased family members. Doesn't mean he did anything to feel guilty about.

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Benjen joined the Night Watch. Why? He didn't seem proud and stupid like Waymar Royce. I bet he knew what pitiful life was waiting him.

He was nearly the same age as Lyanna. While their older brothers were much older. Already men at Harrendal's tourney. She couldn't talk with them as with Benjen. He was training Lyanna with sword, maybe secretly, maybe with lance too. She couldn't do everything alone. A child like her. Benjen knew and helped. Maybe he had nothing to do with the escape. But he knew things. Why we will see him again I guess.

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After the tourney at Harrenhal there is no mention where Benjen or Howland go.

There is however mention that a NW recruiter was present at the feast.

Here is Meera’s tale of the feast at Harrenhal. I’m going to insert [] into the text.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II      "That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf [Lyanna] insisted that the lad [Howland] attend.

He [Howland] was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man.

She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid [Lyanna], so he [Howland] let the young pup [Benjen] find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he [Howland] ate and drank with the wolves [Stark’s], and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen.

The dragon prince [Rhaegar] sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid [Lyanna] sniffle, but when her pup brother [Benjen] teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.

A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

The storm lord [Robert] drank down the knight of skulls and kisses [?] in a wine-cup war.

The crannogman [Howland] saw a maid with laughing purple eyes [Ashara] dance with a white sword [Barry], a red snake [Obeyrn], and the lord of griffins [Jon Con], and lastly with the quiet wolf [Eddard] . . . but only after the wild wolf [Brandon] spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

It appears that rather than become one of Eddard’s bannermen, Benjen decided to become a man of the NW. There is no reason for Benjen the third son to join the NW if what Jon believed is true. Benjen, according to what Jon believes could have been one of Eddard’s bannermen with a holdfast of his own.

A Game of Thrones - Jon I     He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:18 PM, Widow's Watch said:

the castle or lands might fall in the 10 league radius from Harrenhal that was mentioned in the World book? Maybe???

Maybe, but take a look at Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge. Rhaegar et al would have to travel a lot in order to cross those rivers.

And since Brandon married Minisa Whent's daughter, wouldn't be unlikely for Rickard to ask if Lyanna could stay with Shella and Walter Whent after the tourney (Walter was rich, so an interesting ally).

Just spitballing here.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

After the tourney at Harrenhal there is no mention where Benjen or Howland go.

I have a lot of questions about everyone's whereabouts, tbh. We just assume that Benjen went back to Winterfell, Ned went back to the Vale and so on, the truth is, we don't know what anyone's whereabouts were after the tourney, and that includes Rhaegar's own whereabouts.

Here's my personal hiccup with Benjen and the recruiter of the NW (although I do think he is needed there to stress that the NW needs men).

Benjen doesn't need to hear a recruiter speak to be convinced that he should go to the NW. He's from the north where people still have respect for the institution, and I'm assuming that the lord commanders have visited Winterfell more than once. Qhorin Halfhand tells Jon that both Rickard and his father before him were friends of the Watch, so maybe he visited Winterfell as well at some point and met with little Benjen. Maybe he already knew that he wanted to go to the NW well before Harrenhal or Rickard himself was going to send his son there. 

I very often wonder if what Rickard was doing with his children, marrying into the riverlands and the stormlands didn't have more to do with what was going on beyond the Wall than personal southron ambitions as has been depicted. My read on the whole Rhaegar situation with regard to the prophecy is that no one told him anything about it, he just read it in a scroll. What if the same happened with Rickard? He just stumbles upon something and him making these alliances has more to do with shoring up the defenses of the north when the time comes than rebelling against the crown. Sending Benjen to the Wall seems like a logical step if that's what he's pursuing. 

I know, there's nothing in the books about that. But it's another avenue to consider, I think. 

22 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Maybe, but take a look at Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge. Rhaegar et al would have to travel a lot in order to cross those rivers.

And since Brandon married Minisa Whent's daughter, wouldn't be unlikely for Rickard to ask if Lyanna could stay with Shella and Walter Whent after the tourney (Walter was rich, so an interesting ally).

Just spitballing here.

Spitballing is always good fun ^_^

With regard to what you mention, the World Book says that Rhaegar & Co encounter Lyanna 10 leagues (55 miles) from Harrenhal. So the "abduction" doesn't happen near Harrenhal, it happens 55 miles away from it. And we don't know that that distance of 55 miles is what Rhaegar & Co have to cover in order to get to their destination/meeting place, only that wherever Lyanna and Rhaegar met up is a distance of 10 leagues from Harrenhal.

If I go back to ADWD, the King's Prize chapter, we're told that there's about 350 miles between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell and they think it will take 15 days to cross the distance and reach the gates of Winterfell. And this is an army and all that it entails which sounds like a bit of logistical nightmare. On the first day of the march, the army covers 22 miles. I think that army has something between 3,000 and 5,000 men. So Rhaegar plus half a dozen companions, in possibly snowy conditions (because it's supposed to be winter) covering 55 miles (or whatever the actual real distance from point A to B that they had to cover is) should be a piece of cake, I think. 

That's the way I understand it. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So Rhaegar plus half a dozen companions, in possibly snowy conditions [...] covering 55 miles [...] should be a piece of cake, I think.

What I meant: Since Raventree Hall is north of the Red Fork, if Lyanna really was at Blackwood castle or Blackwood lands within the 10 league radius from Harrenhal, it would be necessary to ride north on Kingsroad, cross the river and then go west.

That's a way longer journey than it would be if she was at Harrenhal vicinities (I mean south of the river, the natural border). But it is still plausible.

However, the simplest explanation must also be took in consideration. People on Westeros tend to think Lyanna was caught by surprise by Rhaegar, that she didn't know about his plan, but she might. They could even have arranged the date and place well in advance and only have been caught by a third party by accident.

In that case, she was problaby riding to meet him. Let's say, 10 leagues east or south from Harrenhal, somewhere on the kingsroad.

Please notice, I'm still spitballing.

Edited by Ckram

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1 - GRRM uses leagues of 3 miles, not five and a half.

2 - 55 miles in one day IS possible, but that leaves you with a dead, lamed or simply exhausted horse. The next day you either walk alongside your horse, or you use a new horse. 30 miles for a small group is possible, but again this leaves the horses in a poor condition. I doubt that such a result could be repeated the next day.

3 -  thank you everybody for your opinions. I now see that "Benjen had some inkling of Lyanna's elopment" is pure asspull.

Edited by TMIFairy

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21 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have a lot of questions about everyone's whereabouts, tbh.

So do I. :bang:

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