TMIFairy

Where does "Benjen helped Lyanna elope" bullshit come from?

65 posts in this topic

Benjen may have just wanted to leave Winterfell because it reminded him of the siblings and father he just lost. There probably wasn't too many places in Winterfell that didn't remind Benjen of his recently deceased family members. Doesn't mean he did anything to feel guilty about.

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Benjen joined the Night Watch. Why? He didn't seem proud and stupid like Waymar Royce. I bet he knew what pitiful life was waiting him.

He was nearly the same age as Lyanna. While their older brothers were much older. Already men at Harrendal's tourney. She couldn't talk with them as with Benjen. He was training Lyanna with sword, maybe secretly, maybe with lance too. She couldn't do everything alone. A child like her. Benjen knew and helped. Maybe he had nothing to do with the escape. But he knew things. Why we will see him again I guess.

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After the tourney at Harrenhal there is no mention where Benjen or Howland go.

There is however mention that a NW recruiter was present at the feast.

Here is Meera’s tale of the feast at Harrenhal. I’m going to insert [] into the text.

A Storm of Swords - Bran II      "That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf [Lyanna] insisted that the lad [Howland] attend.

He [Howland] was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man.

She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid [Lyanna], so he [Howland] let the young pup [Benjen] find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.

"Under Harren's roof he [Howland] ate and drank with the wolves [Stark’s], and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen.

The dragon prince [Rhaegar] sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid [Lyanna] sniffle, but when her pup brother [Benjen] teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.

A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch.

The storm lord [Robert] drank down the knight of skulls and kisses [?] in a wine-cup war.

The crannogman [Howland] saw a maid with laughing purple eyes [Ashara] dance with a white sword [Barry], a red snake [Obeyrn], and the lord of griffins [Jon Con], and lastly with the quiet wolf [Eddard] . . . but only after the wild wolf [Brandon] spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

 

It appears that rather than become one of Eddard’s bannermen, Benjen decided to become a man of the NW. There is no reason for Benjen the third son to join the NW if what Jon believed is true. Benjen, according to what Jon believes could have been one of Eddard’s bannermen with a holdfast of his own.

A Game of Thrones - Jon I     He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb's bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own.

 

 

 

 

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:18 PM, Widow's Watch said:

the castle or lands might fall in the 10 league radius from Harrenhal that was mentioned in the World book? Maybe???

Maybe, but take a look at Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge. Rhaegar et al would have to travel a lot in order to cross those rivers.

And since Brandon married Minisa Whent's daughter, wouldn't be unlikely for Rickard to ask if Lyanna could stay with Shella and Walter Whent after the tourney (Walter was rich, so an interesting ally).

Just spitballing here.

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

After the tourney at Harrenhal there is no mention where Benjen or Howland go.

I have a lot of questions about everyone's whereabouts, tbh. We just assume that Benjen went back to Winterfell, Ned went back to the Vale and so on, the truth is, we don't know what anyone's whereabouts were after the tourney, and that includes Rhaegar's own whereabouts.

Here's my personal hiccup with Benjen and the recruiter of the NW (although I do think he is needed there to stress that the NW needs men).

Benjen doesn't need to hear a recruiter speak to be convinced that he should go to the NW. He's from the north where people still have respect for the institution, and I'm assuming that the lord commanders have visited Winterfell more than once. Qhorin Halfhand tells Jon that both Rickard and his father before him were friends of the Watch, so maybe he visited Winterfell as well at some point and met with little Benjen. Maybe he already knew that he wanted to go to the NW well before Harrenhal or Rickard himself was going to send his son there. 

I very often wonder if what Rickard was doing with his children, marrying into the riverlands and the stormlands didn't have more to do with what was going on beyond the Wall than personal southron ambitions as has been depicted. My read on the whole Rhaegar situation with regard to the prophecy is that no one told him anything about it, he just read it in a scroll. What if the same happened with Rickard? He just stumbles upon something and him making these alliances has more to do with shoring up the defenses of the north when the time comes than rebelling against the crown. Sending Benjen to the Wall seems like a logical step if that's what he's pursuing. 

I know, there's nothing in the books about that. But it's another avenue to consider, I think. 

22 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Maybe, but take a look at Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge. Rhaegar et al would have to travel a lot in order to cross those rivers.

And since Brandon married Minisa Whent's daughter, wouldn't be unlikely for Rickard to ask if Lyanna could stay with Shella and Walter Whent after the tourney (Walter was rich, so an interesting ally).

Just spitballing here.

Spitballing is always good fun ^_^

With regard to what you mention, the World Book says that Rhaegar & Co encounter Lyanna 10 leagues (55 miles) from Harrenhal. So the "abduction" doesn't happen near Harrenhal, it happens 55 miles away from it. And we don't know that that distance of 55 miles is what Rhaegar & Co have to cover in order to get to their destination/meeting place, only that wherever Lyanna and Rhaegar met up is a distance of 10 leagues from Harrenhal.

If I go back to ADWD, the King's Prize chapter, we're told that there's about 350 miles between Deepwood Motte and Winterfell and they think it will take 15 days to cross the distance and reach the gates of Winterfell. And this is an army and all that it entails which sounds like a bit of logistical nightmare. On the first day of the march, the army covers 22 miles. I think that army has something between 3,000 and 5,000 men. So Rhaegar plus half a dozen companions, in possibly snowy conditions (because it's supposed to be winter) covering 55 miles (or whatever the actual real distance from point A to B that they had to cover is) should be a piece of cake, I think. 

That's the way I understand it. 

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So Rhaegar plus half a dozen companions, in possibly snowy conditions [...] covering 55 miles [...] should be a piece of cake, I think.

What I meant: Since Raventree Hall is north of the Red Fork, if Lyanna really was at Blackwood castle or Blackwood lands within the 10 league radius from Harrenhal, it would be necessary to ride north on Kingsroad, cross the river and then go west.

That's a way longer journey than it would be if she was at Harrenhal vicinities (I mean south of the river, the natural border). But it is still plausible.

However, the simplest explanation must also be took in consideration. People on Westeros tend to think Lyanna was caught by surprise by Rhaegar, that she didn't know about his plan, but she might. They could even have arranged the date and place well in advance and only have been caught by a third party by accident.

In that case, she was problaby riding to meet him. Let's say, 10 leagues east or south from Harrenhal, somewhere on the kingsroad.

Please notice, I'm still spitballing.

Edited by Ckram

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1 - GRRM uses leagues of 3 miles, not five and a half.

2 - 55 miles in one day IS possible, but that leaves you with a dead, lamed or simply exhausted horse. The next day you either walk alongside your horse, or you use a new horse. 30 miles for a small group is possible, but again this leaves the horses in a poor condition. I doubt that such a result could be repeated the next day.

3 -  thank you everybody for your opinions. I now see that "Benjen had some inkling of Lyanna's elopment" is pure asspull.

Edited by TMIFairy

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21 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I have a lot of questions about everyone's whereabouts, tbh.

So do I. :bang:

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But that leaves the question of why Lyanna was 10 leagues from Harrenhal. It's not a morning stroll, even for a rider like her. And how Rhaegar could have found her, if not on the Kingsroad. Was she in route for Riverrun? Rhaegar too? If so, why not say it. Like it was said of Rickard and Brandon motive to be on the road.

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4 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But that leaves the question of why Lyanna was 10 leagues from Harrenhal.

I dunna know. :bawl:

9 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

 Was she in route for Riverrun? Rhaegar too? If so, why not say it.

:dunno:  :dunce:

 

good luck with getting answers to those questions :P

 

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On 10/11/2017 at 10:01 AM, Ygrain said:

Whatever ladies there might be in the north, the manners apparently didn't rub on Lyanna much, given that at 14, she poured wine on Benjen's head at a feast attended by Westerosi high nobililty, the royalty included, not to mention the completely unladylike lecturing of the hapless squires.

So forget for a second that Lyanna should behave like a lady as is expected. Isn't her reaction reminiscent of Jon's though? Jon's opening POV chapter in AGoT is at the feast for Robert. He is sitting in the back, he kind of broods on it, then he decides that it's more fun this way, he's drinking and he's fine. Benjen sits with him and Jon expresses that he wants to join the NW (after Benjen brings it up), Jon refuses that, but things get out of hand when Benjen tells Jon that he should father a few bastards of his own. Benjen doesn't mean anything by it, but Jon is so upset over that he creates a little scene. He stumbles because he had one too many drinks, knocks the serving woman, the wine decanter crashes, he gets even more upset and leaves the hall in tears. 

Benjen doesn't mean anything by what he told Jon. He just doesn't want him to tie himself down with vows before he had the chance to experience certain things. Benjen didn't get married, will never have children of his own because of the vows he swore. If he joined the NW right after the rebellion, then he wouldn't have been that much older than Jon.

At Harrenhal, Lyanna "sniffles" and he teases her. Maybe Benjen touched on a sore spot with his sister unknowingly, same as he did with Jon, and it prompted that sort of reaction from her. We don't know what he told her, but if she "sniffled" because of the song (which is a given I think), then the teasing might have had to do with the guy who was singing. Was it unlady like? Absolutely. Does it mean she was ill-mannered? I doubt it. 

We don't know if she got up and left the hall after that only to come back later, or just stayed seated after she dumped the content of her cup on Benjen's head. 

I find the Jon/Lyanna situations at the two feasts pretty similar. I've always connected the two together. 

Just my take on it.

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On 9/10/2017 at 0:43 PM, purple-eyes said:

there is a theory that lyanna and benjen are closer to each other so he knew lyanna loved rhaegar madly. yet he failed to tell his dad and big brothers that lyanna might not be "kidnapped". 

I heard one about that he told big brother and dad about it, but they already knew it wasn't a kidnap but wanted a reason to start a war, so Brandon rode to King's Landing to publicly state it was a kidnap while challenging Rhaegar, although Aerys backfired on his plan. But while the plot twists are acceptable, I can't recall any textual evidence for any Benjen share on the story.

Edited by King Merrett I Frey

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5 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So forget for a second that Lyanna should behave like a lady as is expected. Isn't her reaction reminiscent of Jon's though? Jon's opening POV chapter in AGoT is at the feast for Robert. He is sitting in the back, he kind of broods on it, then he decides that it's more fun this way, he's drinking and he's fine. Benjen sits with him and Jon expresses that he wants to join the NW (after Benjen brings it up), Jon refuses that, but things get out of hand when Benjen tells Jon that he should father a few bastards of his own. Benjen doesn't mean anything by it, but Jon is so upset over that he creates a little scene. He stumbles because he had one too many drinks, knocks the serving woman, the wine decanter crashes, he gets even more upset and leaves the hall in tears. 

Benjen doesn't mean anything by what he told Jon. He just doesn't want him to tie himself down with vows before he had the chance to experience certain things. Benjen didn't get married, will never have children of his own because of the vows he swore. If he joined the NW right after the rebellion, then he wouldn't have been that much older than Jon.

At Harrenhal, Lyanna "sniffles" and he teases her. Maybe Benjen touched on a sore spot with his sister unknowingly, same as he did with Jon, and it prompted that sort of reaction from her. We don't know what he told her, but if she "sniffled" because of the song (which is a given I think), then the teasing might have had to do with the guy who was singing. Was it unlady like? Absolutely. Does it mean she was ill-mannered? I doubt it. 

We don't know if she got up and left the hall after that only to come back later, or just stayed seated after she dumped the content of her cup on Benjen's head. 

I find the Jon/Lyanna situations at the two feasts pretty similar. I've always connected the two together. 

Just my take on it.

That is a nice parallel indeed, but you are forgetting that Jon has never been labelled as having wolf blood or being wilful. That episode at the feast doesn't exist in a vacuum; Lyanna hanging around with a tourney sword and laying with it into the squires shows not an exception but a pattern. She would have carried a real sword if Rickard hadn't forbidden it - not very ladylike.

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That is a nice parallel indeed, but you are forgetting that Jon has never been labelled as having wolf blood or being wilful.

This is true, he isn't labeled as such, but we see through his POV that he has a temper and that he is a wilful. Another parallel between the tourney of Harrenhal and Jon is when Sam arrives at Castle Black. Thorne sets Halder on Sam and Jon speaks up against that because Sam is cowering on the ground and has yielded, which in turn has Thorne set Rast, Albett and Halder on Jon who stands between them and Sam. So three on one to protect someone he doesn't even know. 

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That episode at the feast doesn't exist in a vacuum; Lyanna hanging around with a tourney sword and laying with it into the squires shows not an exception but a pattern. She would have carried a real sword if Rickard hadn't forbidden it - not very ladylike.

I agree, the event doesn't exist in vacuum. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. 

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

This is true, he isn't labeled as such, but we see through his POV that he has a temper and that he is a wilful.

He almost has waking the dragon moments, right?

However, what we generally don't see Jon doing is misbehave or break social norms.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Another parallel between the tourney of Harrenhal and Jon is when Sam arrives at Castle Black. Thorne sets Halder on Sam and Jon speaks up against that because Sam is cowering on the ground and has yielded, which in turn has Thorne set Rast, Albett and Halder on Jon who stands between them and Sam. So three on one to protect someone he doesn't even know. 

Yep, that one has been noted :-) Very much like his mommy :D

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree, the event doesn't exist in vacuum. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this. 

Alrighty.

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On 10/9/2017 at 0:05 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

and a 10 year old bran is the most evil person in the story.

That's just calling a spade a spade. He takes over Hodor's body because he's bored, despite the abject terror it causes him. That's evil as fuck.

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5 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

That's just calling a spade a spade. He takes over Hodor's body because he's bored, despite the abject terror it causes him. That's evil as fuck.

This is where you cut children a bit of slack and sit them down and explain things to them, give them a stern lecture or a smacked bottom.  Or, you know, you could chop off their hands or deport them to a penal colony for stealing or something that would make you feel all righteous in punishing their evilness .  Is it wrong?  Of course it is but this is where the parenting should come in.  Oh, yeah, they're dead.

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12 hours ago, Damon_Tor said:

That's just calling a spade a spade. He takes over Hodor's body because he's bored, despite the abject terror it causes him. That's evil as fuck.

Hodor has been a part of bran since he woke up from the crow coma. Bran learning to skinchange him is evolutionary. A westerosi master blaster if you will 

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On 09.10.2017 at 9:38 PM, Ahl of the House Cutler said:

Prepare your tin foil.....

Benjen assisted Rhaegar and Lyanna in hiding in the Crypts of Winterfell while everyone else was fighting in the rebellion.

That's the reason why he was sent to the Wall.

Where did you learn that? And he wanted to join NW. No one sent him. 

 

Edited by SunfyreTheGolden

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On 10/19/2017 at 11:58 AM, SunfyreTheGolden said:

Where did you learn that? And he wanted to join NW. No one sent him. 

 

Just my random assumptions.

Where is it stated that he wanted to join the Nights Watch?  He might've been inspired by a speech, but that doesn't automatically imply that he was gung ho to join.

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