The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/14/2017 at 8:42 AM, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Maegor behaved exactly the same way he always did after Tyanna's death there is no chance he was kept alive by magic. And if that was the case one would assume she would not only have prophesied him that Elinor's child would be a dead monstrosity but also that Maegor himself would not live long after she died. But she did not do that.

In light of the TSotD account suicide seems to out of the question here. Maegor would have first burned down KL and the Red Keep, and Storm's End, and Jaehaerys, Rhaena, Alysanne, Alyssa, and their pitiful pet dragons before he would have considered killing himself.

In that sense chances are that the Kingsguard acted in concert and murdered him. Four Kingsguard should be enough to seize Maegor and hold him in place while the Iron Throne finished the job. A person or persons sneaking in and doing the job in secret seems less likely considering Maegor's enormous strength. He would have had time enough to cry out and then the Kingsguard would have saved him.

And even if he for some reason fell asleep on the Iron Throne - which seems very unlikely - chances are that he would have woken and been able for fight off or injure an attacker. But there were no signs of a struggle in the throne room.

Really?

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It is said that the king slew her himself, cutting out her her heart with Blackfyre and feeding it to his dogs.

The Sons of the Dragon

Until this point, Maegor had always acted decisively, perhaps too decisively on occasion. But as he slew Tyanna, "in the forty-eighth year After the Conquest, the sixth year of King Maegor's reign and the last year of his life," a host of challenges beset him... Ser Joffrey Doggett at Riverrun, Septon Moon at Oldtown, Lord Celtigar's resignation, Dornish spears gathering in the passes, and Jhaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena at Storm's End. Those challenges are described in the four paragraphs that follow the death of Tyanna. The fifth paragraph begins...

Quote

King Maegor's response was sluggish and confused. 

The Sons of the Dragon

After Tyanna stopped working her voodoo, Maegor started losing it, and the Iron Throne finished the job. 

[Ran]

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@Ran

What happened to the Dornish Poor Fellows and the Warrior's Sons of Gulltown?

Questions which we asked George and never received answers to, alas.

[The Grey Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Ran said:

Questions which we asked George and never received answers to, alas.

I see. Hopefully, Fire & Blood: Volume 1 will address that among other issues.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/14/2017 at 8:42 AM, Lord Varys said:

So you are proposing then that the First Men of the North/Starks have a different definition than incest than the Andals? They would have to if you assume that half-uncles marrying their half-nieces doesn't constitute incest in the North since, you know, the First Men also condemn incest and see the people practicing it as abominations. They don't have a church condemning those evil incest people, they presumably pick up stones and stone them to death all by themselves. Or do whatever you do to abominations born of and/or committing incest.

But chances are that the Starks have about the same definition of incest as the Faith. Which means core family intercourse - parents-children and sibling sex is evil - but everything else is technically permitted, although unusual.

Back when the Starks still wore crowns they could have done (and presumably did) whatever the hell they wanted to. But if avuncular marriages were evil then there must be a very good reason as to why Cregan Stark's sons could marry their nieces. Those must have been both arranged marriages.

We all do things we really shouldn't. Sometimes we get away with it, and sometimes we don't. As the quote @The Fattest Leech provided upthread makes clear, Maegor was said to have committed incest...

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Maegor was cursed, men said. He had slain his nephew, made war against the Faith and the High Septon, defied the gods, committed murder and incest, adultery and rape. 

The Sons of the Dragon

The only close relation Maegor wed was his niece Rhaena. So, incest included uncles wedding nieces. But we can assume that incestuous marriage between an uncle and a niece was not as bad as incest between siblings. 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Really?

The Sons of the Dragon

Until this point, Maegor had always acted decisively, perhaps too decisively on occasion. But as he slew Tyanna, "in the forty-eighth year After the Conquest, the sixth year of King Maegor's reign and the last year of his life," a host of challenges beset him... Ser Joffrey Doggett at Riverrun, Septon Moon at Oldtown, Lord Celtigar's resignation, Dornish spears gathering in the passes, and Jhaehaerys, Alysanne, and Rhaena at Storm's End. Those challenges are described in the four paragraphs that follow the death of Tyanna. The fifth paragraph begins...

The Sons of the Dragon

After Tyanna stopped working her voodoo, Maegor started losing it, and the Iron Throne finished the job. 

Well, perhaps he was just irritated that so many people were rising against him. After all, wasn't he a kind and generous and open-handed monarch, loved and revered by all?

If Maegor had not taken the head of Lord Hayford during the war council, if there had been hints that he was truly uncertain or confused about what he wanted, I'd continue to seriously consider that possibility. But on the basis of TSotD that doesn't really work.

However, there are bits of information in TWoIaF that are clearly not drawn from TSotD. The speculation about Visenya poisoning Aenys is never mentioned in TSotD, and also the idea that Maegor was broken in the end. The man in TSotD does not appear to be broken. He seems to be determined to resist no matter what. That is why he refused to abdicate and take the black.

And it is not that those vermin rebelling against could really do anything to him. He had Balerion. And as long as he had that dragon nobody was a real threat to him. Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing were not match for Balerion. Storm's End could burn just as well as Harrenhal, as could Riverrun and Highgarden and the Eyrie.

If you think about in detail it actually doesn't make a lot of sense that great houses with great castles would rebel against King Maegor nor that such a rebellion could succeed.

But if it turned out that George added some details to the portrait of Maegor and Visenya later in notes and mails or whatever he gave Ran and Linda then the theory could make some more sense.

Even my own idea about Maegor being the one who produced those monstrosities with his corrupted semen is not all that likely. The portrait of Tyanna makes it very likely that she did everything in her power to ensure that Maegor's wives would not conceive healthy or viable children

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Before the attack on Oldtown, in a period of at least half a year when Maegor "let poisons fester", suspect lords and landed knights were invited to travel to King's Landing and deliver hostages. We expressly hear that some did.

Well, those were the options of cowards and traitors. We are talking about the people who actually believe in the doctrines of the Faith and led the rules of that religion rule their lives.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

After the fall of Oldtown, those Swords who were at the point captives did not have the choice to fight. They did have other choices: die as martyrs (a quarter would) or go to Wall. Most of the martyrs were beheaded by their own former brethren - yet since thrice as many took Black as death, most who took Black could not have had a brother to behead. Was there any difference in the treatment of those  who did not behead their brethren, and those who did?

What kind of a question is that? They all went to the Wall.

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Only one, Ser Morgan Hightower, received a "full royal pardon" - on which terms?

Most likely on the terms that the fucking Hightowers kill the fucking High Septon - which they did. 

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

After Pater's dissolution of Faith Militant, those who were on the loose got a whole year to "surrender their weapons and give up their rebellious ways". Meaning what? If a Faith Militant member on the loose in 43 gave up his rebellious ways and set out to join his brethren on the Wall, bringing his arms along to Wall, would Maegor demand the Watch return his head, or just issue him their own standard issue weapons and send his own brought weapons to Maegor to "surrender his weapons"?

I guess anyone approaching Maegor with that kind of silly talk would get beheaded much quicker than good old Grand Maester Gawen...

By the way - my hard copy just arrived. In there I also get the mentioning of 'Robar Baratheon' on the last page. That is really odd.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

We all do things we really shouldn't. Sometimes we get away with it, and sometimes we don't. As the quote @The Fattest Leech provided upthread makes clear, Maegor was said to have committed incest...

The Sons of the Dragon

The only close relation Maegor wed was his niece Rhaena. So, incest included uncles wedding nieces. But we can assume that incestuous marriage between an uncle and a niece was not as bad as incest between siblings. 

Well, that seems to be one of the many inaccuracies in this piece, don't you think? There is a definition of incest in there, and it doesn't include marriages/intercourse between half-uncles and half-nieces (or avuncular marriages in general). I'm not making this up. I used to think avuncular marriages would be considered incest, too, but according to TSotD they are not.

And that definition of incest even made it into TWoIaF, by the way. It is as canonical as you can get.

You could just as well argue that King Aenys actually did have grandsons because it is written in that story. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/14/2017 at 8:42 AM, Lord Varys said:

But one really wonders what the symbolism of two of Maegor's children having no eyes.

It would usually be taken to mean that something can't be seen. That the description of Alys's dragon baby was followed by Maegor's declaration, "This cannot be my son," suggests that the little dragon baby was, indeed, Maegor's son. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/14/2017 at 4:48 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

My conclusion is still that the rest of Westeros, Starks included, draw the line between full uncle marriage and half-uncle marriage, as their definition of what constitutes "incest".  Real-life societies have examples of specifically this distinction.

Or maybe, like I suggested, not insisted, but suggested, above, there are degrees of incest, so that incestuous marriage between parents and children (like Craster and his wives) can never be tolerated except in the most extreme cases, incestuous marriage between siblings is only tolerated among the royal Targaryens (and even then it's frowned upon by decent society), incestuous marriage between an uncle and a niece is frowned upon but tolerated for political purposes, and once you get beyond that, nobody really cares. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 10/15/2017 at 9:56 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Anyone else skip the other stories just to go to pg.477 ? 

I thought that was just a long forward...

[Ran]

What LM says. Degrees of incest, very much like degrees of kinslaying.

[Lost Melnibonean]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The portrait of Tyanna makes it very likely that she did everything in her power to ensure that Maegor's wives would not conceive healthy or viable children

If that is, indeed, true, what was her motivation? Jealousy? Just being mean? Was she looking out for her flock like Mirri Maz Duur? Having fun with sorcery like Qyburn? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, that seems to be one of the many inaccuracies in this piece, don't you think? There is a definition of incest in there, and it doesn't include marriages/intercourse between half-uncles and half-nieces (or avuncular marriages in general). I'm not making this up. I used to think avuncular marriages would be considered incest, too, but according to TSotD they are not.

And that definition of incest even made it into TWoIaF, by the way. It is as canonical as you can get.

You could just as well argue that King Aenys actually did have grandsons because it is written in that story. 

I don't see it as necessarily inaccurate. Things are not always black and white. 

And as to the sons and grandsons, as I suggested above, the "grandsons" could have referred to his granddaughters, but the author preferred the sound of "sons and grandsons." And, the piece was written--in universe--long after the fact, so the "author" would have had Aenys's later grandsons in his head. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If that is, indeed, true, what was her motivation? Jealousy? Just being mean? Was she looking out for her flock like Mirri Maz Duur? Having fun with sorcery like Qyburn? 

The standard idea would be that she loved/wanted Maegor so much that she could bear the thought that another woman would give him what she could not - a living heir. She seems to have gotten along with Alys pretty well until the woman got pregnant.

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

What LM says. Degrees of incest, very much like degrees of kinslaying.

Do you know what that means for the avuncular Stark marriages? Did Jonnel and Edric face opposition, attacks, etc. for their marriages? Regardless of the degree incest seems to have been as reviled - or perhaps even more reviled if we consider the wildling opinion on the matter - among the First Men than it is among the Andals.

But in any case - avuncular marriages are not that much of deal for the Faith than is parent-children or sibling incest. And cousin marriages are perfectly fine if Alyssa-Aenys are any indication.

By the way - can you finally tell us how exactly King Aenys and Alyssa Velaryon are related. TSotD indicates they are only related through Valaena Velaryon (and her Targaryen mother) while you clam in TWoIaF that Alyssa Velaryon has a Targaryen mother herself:

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The Dragon and his sisters had been accepted without comment, and the issue had not arisen when Prince Aenys was wed in 22 AC to Alyssa Velaryon, the daughter of the king’s master of ships and lord admiral; though she was a Targaryen upon her mother’s side, this made her only a cousin.

And care to comment on Maegor being broken and Visenya poisoning Aenys? Where did you get that?

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And as to the sons and grandsons, as I suggested above, the "grandsons" could have referred to his granddaughters, but the author preferred the sound of "sons and grandsons." And, the piece was written--in universe--long after the fact, so the "author" would have had Aenys's later grandsons in his head. 

Well, I'm sorry, but then the in-universe author would be a sloppy historian. If Prince Aegon had had sons this could have had a remarkable effect on the politics of the time. Precious few people want a female monarch but a male monarch is something different. Aegon's campaign could have continued in the name of his son(s), and Jaehaerys may have never become king.

Hell, if Rhaena had had sons Maegor's wedding gift would most likely have been their heads considering that they would have been much more dangerous than the girls. He could have married Aerea to the son he wanted to have, or he could eventually have taken Aerea as another wife once she had come of age.

That wasn't possible with a grandnephew. Such a guy was just a potential danger.

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The standard idea would be that she loved/wanted Maegor so much that she could bear the thought that another woman would give him what she could not - a living heir. She seems to have gotten along with Alys pretty well until the woman got pregnant.

I wonder why she didn't work a little voodoo on herself, so she could bear Maegor’s heir? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I'm sorry, but then the in-universe author would be a sloppy historian. If Prince Aegon had had sons this could have had a remarkable effect on the politics of the time. Precious few people want a female monarch but a male monarch is something different. Aegon's campaign could have continued in the name of his son(s), and Jaehaerys may have never become king.

Hell, if Rhaena had had sons Maegor's wedding gift would most likely have been their heads considering that they would have been much more dangerous than the girls. He could have married Aerea to the son he wanted to have, or he could eventually have taken Aerea as another wife once she had come of age.

That wasn't possible with a grandnephew. Such a guy was just a potential danger.

You don't have to be sorry. 

[Jaak]

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What kind of a question is that? They all went to the Wall.

How were the third or less of the brethren who beheaded their brethren selected?

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most likely on the terms that the fucking Hightowers kill the fucking High Septon - which they did. 

Um? That High Septon was probably devout enough to not be fucking while a septon.

About Ser Morgan - he did not go to Wall alongside his brethren. Did he behead any of them? And afterwards? Did he hang around as a household member in Hightower family? As such, did he marry and father trueborn children, which his vows had blocked?

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess anyone approaching Maegor with that kind of silly talk would get beheaded much quicker than good old Grand Maester Gawen...

Maegor would not behead ravens, though he could leave them unanswered.

But consider that there was a large number of lords who refused to join Faith rebellion at the head of their secular bannermen. Even Hightowers would not march.

From the sons and brethren of great lords who chose death, 7 got the honour of being beheaded by Maegor. And only Ser Morgan got "full pardon".

There were the leal lords who fought for Maegor early on, though we hear few high profile names. At Stonebridge, the royal army of "six lordly hosts" was commanded by one Loadows of Grassy Vale, apparently no lord himself. At Blackwater, the only lord named in royal army of 20 000 was Lord of Maidenpool - the second named hero was Big Jon Hogg. Note the imbalance - two hosts of equal size and royal one with twice as much armoured horse, yet the rebel host had 3 lords out of number of 12 total given, and 2 more named knights.

If a Mootton as the hero of Blackwater approached Maegor on behalf of his second son or brother who was unwilling to fight against his birth family, regardless of vows to the contrary which he had given in good old times when there was no real prospect of having to keep those vows, and begged leave for the Warrior´s Son to get a royal pardon and join the victorious royal army as a household knight in the retinue of his lordly family head - thus bearing arms for Maegor rather than surrendering them - would even Maegor have beheaded his loyal hero for that request?

[The Grey Wolf]

35 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Text

Lord Varys didn't mean the High Septon was sleeping around when he used the word f***.

Also, Loadows is a typo. It should read Lord Meadows.

[Lost Melnibonean]

How did Visenya and Rhaenys feel towards each other when they were children? When they were wed to their brother? When Aenys was born? when Rhaenys died? 

[Jaak]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What we know indicates that all the Andals of the Seven Kingdoms saw the High Septon of Oldtown as the leader of their religion. There were no dissenters there.

Sure, but nobody ever questioned that the office of the High Septon is in charge of the Faith. There can certainly be individual heretical High Septons and all but that doesn't damage the office

It obviously does damage the office. Anybody who held out after High Septon Pater dissolved Faith Militant or rebelled in the end of Maegor´s rule was plainly dissenting from the then High Septon as the leader of their faith. Yet they remained Andals and believed in Faith. If there is a plain precedent of people who followed their conscience and what they undestood of the holy books of Faith and not the words of the man called High Septon by the Most Devout taken captive in Oldtown, it damaged the office. And not only for those who did resist. Because there must have been a lot of people who yielded because they did not want to lose, not because High Septon told them to, which he did - people who were with High Septon Pater but not actually for High Septon Pater.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There was no such struggle there on Dragonstone, presumably because the Targaryens and their Valyrian subjects didn't care about religions at all. They feigned piety if it suited them. But they did not allow religious doctrines to interfere with their private lives. Aegon certainly did not.

The idea that he would be as stupid as to force some septon into a religious conflict by insisting that he marry him to both his sisters when Aegon had other ways to marry those sisters - the Valyrian way, or the way of countless other Essosi religions who perhaps do not condemn either incest or polygamy - simply doesn't make a lot of sense.

It could make sense if knew Aegon and his sisters were true followers of the Seven but we they were not.

If Septon Murmison had had the foresight to tell Aenys "Please, Your Grace, if you prefer to keep to Valyrian customs not Andal ones in who your children marry, it is better to also keep to those Valyrian customs in how your children marry, like your brother did.", would Aenys have beheaded him for that?