Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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Any stray mentions of the other dragons?  Any citable confirmation of their color patterns, etc?  No lineages mentioned?

How well does this hold up to that brief excerpt of TWOIAF that leaked out years ago (as test artwork or something) which randomly showed an excerpt from a longer version of the Maegor chapter which was later cut?  The one that actually described the battle in some detail.

Any mention of how the fringe regions reacted to the Faith Militant uprising?  The North, Iron Islands, independent Dorne?

Who fought for Prince Aegon?

 

 

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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Yeah, was Daeron I's invasion the Third Dornish War or the Ninth Dornish War?

 

Wait....so Maegor didn't actually have his Kingsguard present in his Trial of Seven?  I always assumed the Faith Militant let him send for them.

Edited by The Dragon Demands

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, what do you? We don't learn how Prince Aegon acquired his father's dragon, Quicksilver - a she-dragon, by the way. What a disappointment!

Well that screws up my theory.

We know that dragons can seemingly change their sex, so I thought that maybe their sex was determined by the sex of their last rider. Like, maybe they just mimicked their riders' sex just because that it what they were used to.

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5 hours ago, VisenyaTargaryen said:

Oh man... I was really excited about this book because I wanted to know more about Visenya, but this made me quite sad. :(

When I first read about her being passionate, a seductress, a warrior, etc, I immediately liked her, but it seems to me that GRRM wanted her to be "The Evil Sister™", or the female version of Tywin (or Stannis). Her character seemed quite unpleasant, while all the good traits went to the "good sister", aka Rhaenys. So I was hoping to read good things about Visenya in The Sons of the Dragon, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Visenya was never nice. But she stood with Aegon and Rhaenys for most of her life. She was supportive of Aegon, founded the KG, burned Dornish castles by the scores, etc. 

But she favored her son Maegor in all things. She actively undermined Aenys I with the whole talk about him giving Blackfyre to Maegor. In her defense we can say that she seems to have been the one to reconcile Maegor and Alyssa after the latter took the throne. As I've said above, Alyssa and her children went to Driftmark immediately after Aenys' funeral, but after the Trial of Seven and Maegor's miraculous recovery Visenya flew to the island and brought Alyssa and the children back to KL to attend the wedding of Maegor and Tyanna. Alyssa was even among the women who disrobed Maegor for the bedding, and she subsequently even acknowledged Maegor as the rightful king, denouncing her own son Aegon as a pretender in the process - whom she originally had proclaimed king on Driftmark.

After the Aegon affair is over she makes Alyssa and her younger children her wards/hostages on Dragonstone while Maegor takes Viserys - who apparently was a very promising young man - as a squire-hostage.

Aside from that Visenya isn't very nice here. She destroys dozens of castles of pious lords supporting the Faith Militant alongside Maegor. She is very much involved in events Yandel describes as Maegor eradication of noble bloodlines in the beginning of his account. Maegor did not only eradicate the Harroways.

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Either way, I can't wait to read this book, even though I have no idea when it's going to be released in my country. Until then, I'll keep checking this thread religiously. Thank you very much for sharing! ^_^

Can't you get an ebook copy, either? Just download an app and read on your screen.

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Any stray mentions of the other dragons?  Any citable confirmation of their color patterns, etc?  No lineages mentioned?

There are no lineages or hitherto unknown dragons mentioned but we get a little bit on Dreamfyre:

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Dreamfyre was a slender, pale blue she-dragon with silvery markings who had already produced two clutches of eggs, and Rhaena had been riding her since the age of twelve.

That is all. It indicates that quite a few dragons we have met or might still meet in Fire and Blood might be descended from Dreamfyre - who herself might be a daughter of Quicksilver and an unknown male dragon, as might be Silverwing. Vermithor could be a son of Vhagar and Balerion considering that he and Silverwing are referred to as cousins in TPatQ. Quicksilver would then be a daughter of Balerion and Meraxes.

We also get a Vermithor being described as 'bronze' during the account on Jaehaerys' proclamation.

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

How well does this hold up to that brief excerpt of TWOIAF that leaked out years ago (as test artwork or something) which randomly showed an excerpt from a longer version of the Maegor chapter which was later cut?  The one that actually described the battle in some detail.

That excerpt seems to be pretty much there, although I've not compared the two versions yet. I always suspected those were George's original words rather than a rewrite or edit by Ran and Linda.

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Any mention of how the fringe regions reacted to the Faith Militant uprising?  The North, Iron Islands, independent Dorne?

The only mentioning of Dorne comes when Maegor's rule is collapsing. Then the Dornishmen prepare to invade the Reach and the Stormlands. Whether they do that or not remains to be seen. The recent speculations on Dornish Wars taking place in the early reign of Jaehaerys I might make sense in that regard. While Lord Rogar Baratheon effectively ruled the Realm as Hand and Protector of the Realm one assumes he would have reacted rather harshly if the Dornish invaded and raided his lands.

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Who fought for Prince Aegon?

For that we have a list:

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His nephew Aegon, Prince of Dragonstone, had emerged from the west at last to stake his claim to the Iron Throne. Mounted on his own dragon Quicksilver, the eldest son of the late King Aenys had denounced his uncle as a tyrant and usurper, and was marching across the riverlands at the head of an army fifteen thousand strong. His followers were largely westermen and river lords; the Lords Tarbeck, Piper, Roote, Vance, Charlton, Frey, Paege, Parren, and Westerling were amongst them, joined by Lord Corbray of the Vale, the Bastard of Barrowton, and the fourth son of the Lord of Griffin’s Roost.

The Bastard of Barrowton - one Denys Snow - is the only time a Northman features in the piece (he is killed beneath the Gods Eye). But we learn that Tyanna has found out that Alyssa had been in secret communication with Storm's End, the Eyrie, Winterfell, and Casterly Rock when Aegon began his campaign. The great lords were reluctant to lend their support to Aegon, helping to make it a stillborn campaign, but if Aegon had won a victory in the field - which he did not - they might have joined him.

4 hours ago, KCenturion said:

Any mention of conflict with Dorne?

See above. However, it seems to be pretty clear to me by the way the Vulture King uprising is described that this constitutes a Second Dornish War. George/Gyldayn even refer to the Vulture King's men as 'the Dornish'. It wasn't an attempt to conquer Dorne but still an (unofficial) war with Dorne.

4 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Wait....so Maegor didn't actually have his Kingsguard present in his Trial of Seven?  I always assumed the Faith Militant let him send for them.

Nope. The Warrior's Sons controlled the gates of the city. Thousands of Kingslanders joined Maegor when he landed on Visenya's Hill (where the royal manse was at that time - nobody lived in the unfinished Red Keep) but when seven hundred Warrior's Sons confronted Maegor and Damon the Devout demanded a Trial of Seven the way they had done it in Andalos of old nobody stands with Maegor at first:

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The king turned to the crowd. “Who will come and stand beside his king?” he called. Many turned away in fear or pretended that they did not hear, for the prowess of the Warrior’s Sons was known to all. But at last one man offered himself: no knight, but a simple man-at-arms who called himself Dick Bean. “I been a king’s man since I was a boy,” he said. “I mean to die a king’s man.”

And that he did, of course. That is perhaps the most touching scene in the entire piece, and a testament to how much the commoners actually had grown to love the Targaryens by that time.

The other champions were the aforementioned Bernarr Brune as well as

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Ser Bramm of Blackhull, a hedge knight; Ser Rayford Rosby; Ser Guy Lothston, called Guy the Glutton; and Ser Lucifer Massey, Lord of Stonedance.

The champions of the Warrior's Sons were:

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Ser Damon Morrigen, called Damon the Devout, Grand Captain of the Warrior’s Sons; Ser Lyle Bracken; Ser Harys Horpe, called Death’s Head Harry; Ser Aegon Ambrose; Ser Dickon Flowers, the Bastard of Beesbury; Ser Willam the Wanderer; and Ser Garibald of the Seven Stars, the septon knight.

The historical accounts on the Trial of Seven itself are garbled and contradictory. In the end only Maegor stood against Ser Damon and Ser Willam, with the latter dealing him the blow to the head that nearly killed him. After Maegor's broken helmet was removed Visenya proclaimed that the king still breathed, and so the victory was his. That actually caused the other Warrior's Sons to debate whether the Seven had now made Maegor their king or not, explaining why they didn't push their advantage during Maegor's coma.

It should also be noted that the Warrior's Sons were really an elite order of knights. They seem to have been a huge part of the cream of Westerosi knighthood. People were afraid of them.

1 hour ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Well that screws up my theory.

We know that dragons can seemingly change their sex, so I thought that maybe their sex was determined by the sex of their last rider. Like, maybe they just mimicked their riders' sex just because that it what they were used to.

Dragons aren't chameleons, I guess ;-).

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List of confirmed mistakes:

Rhalla Targaryen > Rhaella Targaryen

Robar Baratheon > Rogar Baratheon

Aethon Velaryon > Aethan Velaryon

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

List of confirmed mistakes:

Rhalla Targaryen > Rhaella Targaryen

Robar Baratheon > Rogar Baratheon

Aethon Velaryon > Aethan Velaryon

About the spelling for Lord Baratheon.. While Aethan's name originally came from a reading, and Rhaella was mentioned only in the appendix of TWOIAF, Robar's name is mentioned in two separate chapters in TWOIAF to be Robar. So perhaps @Ran can give us more clearity on this. Which spelling is the correct one? Robar or Rogar?

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1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

About the spelling for Lord Baratheon.. While Aethan's name originally came from a reading, and Rhaella was mentioned only in the appendix of TWOIAF, Robar's name is mentioned in two separate chapters in TWOIAF to be Robar. So perhaps @Ran can give us more clearity on this. Which spelling is the correct one? Robar or Rogar?

Yeah, the Robar case could be tricky. Still, it is consistently 'Rogar' throughout George's own piece.

Rhaella most certainly seems to be one of those many mistakes that crept into the book during the process of making those family trees for TWoIaF. And it is one only the people actually knowing the source material could correct. But quite a few people wondered whether the correct spelling might be 'Rhaella' back then, didn't they?

The Aethan thing is just for the wiki guys. The entry should be changed. Also for the Sargoso Saan chap assuming he has an entry.

Also, Alyssa Velaryon and the Baratheon guy married half a year after Jaehaerys I's coronation:

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His mother Alyssa would act as his regent during the remaining years of the king’s minority, whilst Lord Rogar Baratheon was named Protector of the Realm and Hand of the King. (Half a year later, the two of them would wed.)

I think that makes that question clear. Alyssa was already past forty in 48 AC. I think some people were reading the whole thing as Alyssa and Rogar only marrying after the regency had ended in 50 AC.

Maegor's brides that could have been are fun. After Ceryse's death Maegor is urged to take a new wife since he no longer shares the bed with Tyanna:

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Grand Maester Benifer suggested a match with the proud and lovely Lady of Starfall, Clarisse Dayne, in the hopes of detaching her lands and House from Dorne. Alton Butterwell, master of coin, offered his widowed sister, a stout woman with seven children. Though admittedly no beauty, he argued, her fertility had been proved beyond a doubt. The King’s Hand, Lord Celtigar, had two young maiden daughters, thirteen and twelve years of age respectively. He urged the king to take his pick of them, or marry both if he preferred. Lord Velaryon of Driftmark advised Maegor to send for his niece Princess Rhaena, his brother’s daughter and the widow of his brother’s son, and take her to wife. By wedding Rhaena, the king would unite their claims and strengthen the royal bloodline..

Those Daynes show up everywhere. And I guess we can lay to rest the idea that the Targaryens somehow hated the Celtigars.

Oh, and by the way: Rhaena's apparent lover, the Farman, was one Androw Farman, the second son of Lord Farman. One really wonders whether she married him after everything was over. Then it could very well be that some Farman was among the lesser claimants who lay claim to the Iron Throne at the Great Council in 101 AC.

The chances that Aerea had children of her own are very high. With Rhaella it is different. Did she remain with the Faith and become a septa? Possibly. But considering her age and the fact that Rhaena had been separated so long from her daughters I find it rather likely that she took her back.

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George did both Rogar and Robar when he originally wrote the thing, and we made the decision to go with Robar. It seems he missed that when he passed it on to Gardner for editing, and Gardner went the other way.

I'd go with Robar until F&B comes out, as that'll get an editing pass from Anne and Linda and I, and we can call it to George's attention.

Edited by Ran

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5 minutes ago, Ran said:

George did both Rogar and Robar when he originally wrote the thing, and we made the decision to go with Robar. It seems he missed that when he passed it on to Gardner for editing, and Gardner went the other way.

I'd go with Robar until F&B comes out, as that'll get an editing pass from Anne and Linda and I, and we can call it to George's attention.

What about Rhaella and Aethan? Are they right?

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Rhaella is definitely correct. Why is there uncertainty on this? I've some vague recollection of the family tree in the 1st edition maybe having Rhalla, but that should have been corrected in a later printing.

And Aethan is also correct. I think maybe people misunderstood the name from GRRM's reading?

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Martyn Hightower is referred to here is Ceryse's brother. Does this mean Lord Manfred Hightower - the one during the Conquest - was Ceryse's father?

Does this make sense?

I'm not sure about that. Ceryse was born in 2 AC, but when Aegon approached Oldtown for his coronation, Manfred's youngest daughter apparently was old enough for marriage:

Some say that Lord Hightower also offered up the hand of his youngest daughter, which Aegon declined politely, lest it offend his two queens.

Either way, it annoys me a lot that there seem to be so many mistakes in the Worldbook.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

'Your one true wife awaits you in the Hightower.'

- Grand Maester Myres

So Myres was Grand Maester between Gawen and Desmond?

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, and we get all the names of the champions during the Trial of Seven. I don't recall them right now but the first one to agree to stand with Maegor is a commoner named Dick Bean - a very touching scene - who shames the knights into standing with Maegor (the Kingsguard could not accompany Maegor and Visenya to KL on dragonback).

So Dick Bean was knighted right before the trial?

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

George did both Rogar and Robar when he originally wrote the thing, and we made the decision to go with Robar. It seems he missed that when he passed it on to Gardner for editing, and Gardner went the other way.

I'd go with Robar until F&B comes out, as that'll get an editing pass from Anne and Linda and I, and we can call it to George's attention.

Ran, since you are here:

Did you talk about certain things with George in addition to the text itself? The rumor/speculation about Visenya killing Aenys and Yandel judging Maegor as taking Visenya's death in his stride and his assessment that the man died, in his own way, as broken as Aenys doesn't really show up in the text. Did you guys get further information on those and other things.

The Lord Velaryon that ends up defecting to Jaehaerys is named Daemon Velaryon in TWoIaF but the name is also not mentioned in TSotD. Did you get it from George through some other means, too?

Quite honestly, I certainly prefer Robar. It is an already established name, not to mention a name alluding to Robert Baratheon.

11 minutes ago, DanaKz said:

What about Rhaella and Aethan? Are they right?

Rhaella seems to be one of those dreadful family tree typos.

Aethan must be right considering that he doesn't show up anywhere else. He is mentioned by name two times in the piece. The bad spelling comes from the interpreting the reading. At least I gut Hubert Arryn right - the cousin who succeeds Jonos the Kinslayer.

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I'm guessing it will be corrected by the intrepid wiki editors soon. :)

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

Rhaella is definitely correct. Why is there uncertainty on this? I've some vague recollection of the family tree in the 1st edition maybe having Rhalla, but that should have been corrected in a later printing.

It was! I just checked my two later prints of TWoIaF and she is Rhaella in the family tree. I never realized that until now. Great work!

But we always spoke of her as 'Rhalla' since we pretty much all owned a first copy. I got rid of mine only a short while ago when I felt safe to get later editions when I purchased the books on-line.

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm not sure about that. Ceryse was born in 2 AC, but when Aegon approached Oldtown for his coronation, Manfred's youngest daughter apparently was old enough for marriage:

Some say that Lord Hightower also offered up the hand of his youngest daughter, which Aegon declined politely, lest it offend his two queens.

Either way, it annoys me a lot that there seem to be so many mistakes in the Worldbook.

Well, not all those mistakes are necessarily mistakes. Those pieces were written by George in the process of making TWoIaF but they do not necessarily reflect the final canon. Just think of the blasted Gerardys-Orwyle conundrum or the Joffrey Lydden thing which wasn't part of George's original history of the Westerlands.

It is quite clear that Ceryse cannot be the maiden daughter of Lord Manfred - although that could have been interesting, too - but rather yet another daughter Lord Manfred might have had later.

But I really think that sentence here is simply a mistake:

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During his time at Oldtown, the king was also reconciled with his first wife, Queen Ceryse, the sister of his host, Lord Hightower.

The Lord Hightower in question here is undoubtedly Lord Martyn since he is identified as such a few sentences before, and there is no indication that Lord Martyn died off page and was subsequently replaced by his eldest son without anyone realizing it. The Oldtown events are described in detail and are one of the more atmospheric accounts of the piece.

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So Myres was Grand Maester between Gawen and Desmond?

Yep. And Desmond had a successor as well. Benifer, a smart dude, fled to Pentos shortly before Maegor's end.

5 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

So Dick Bean was knighted right before the trial?

Not within the text. But I guess he was.

19 minutes ago, DanaKz said:

Somebody should change that now.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The champions of the Warrior's Sons were:

Do you think they were all members of the Faith Militant or also just pious knights?

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Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

Do you think they were all members of the Faith Militant or also just pious knights?

Those guys were all Warrior's Sons. As I've said, Damon Morrigen showed up with 700 armored knights - all from the chapter of the Warrior's Sons in KL. Pious knights and lords, etc. only joined the rebellion later on. Or already did at that time, but weren't in KL (and never got there).

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@Ran

Assuming you have an ebook version of The Book of Swords:

Can you check whether anything was cut from the original files you and Linda got?

That would be interesting to know.

Compared to George's readings of the Aenys part TSotD seems to be identical but we cannot make any guesses concerning the Maegor part.

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Ah, good to know with Dreamfyre.

I'm hesitant to assume Dreamfyre was from Quicksilver, but who knows.  Heck, even as late as the Dance of the Dragons, they might still have had Meraxes eggs lying around...or eggs from the other four besides Balerion who first game to Dragonstone.

I kind of hoped that any time they mention one laying a clutch of eggs was a hint that others descended from it....but thanks to the Cannibal, a lot of those hatchlings never lived to adulthood.

Visenya "destroyed castles"....with Vhagar?  She could still ride a dragon at her age?

 

 

 

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