Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

577 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Pukisbaisals said:

You didn't pay attention. Maegor  was not aware of this swap. He believed he had real princesses.

And why would Tyanna lie to Maegor about that? What would be her motive? And would could she hope to gain by this deception?

3 minutes ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Rhaena didn't know who were the people who were hiding her children. That  was her own plan.

Sure, but she knew the people she gave her daughters to, right? And she may have been able to recognize them, never mind what you think. She would have them for about a year, perhaps more, and while children change rapidly at that age one would really need doubles that closely resemble the actual children - twins, at that - to fool anyone. We are not talking about hair and eyes here.

3 minutes ago, Pukisbaisals said:

I am sure she tried to find them, but not sure if she succeeded. Her powerful allies could just lie that her daughters were dead or that they lost contact with them.

And why would they do that? What would their motives be to take part in such a deception? While we don't even know who those people were we can't even speculate about that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And why would Tyanna lie to Maegor about that? What would be her motive? And would could she hope to gain by this deception?

 

She kept her position and reputation as almighty spymistress. Her power derived from her reputation mostly, not from army or high birth.

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but she knew the people she gave her daughters to, right?

 

She did.But those people could just have died. Or they could have lied about whereabouts of her daugthers.

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 She would have them for about a year, perhaps more, and while children change rapidly at that age one would really need doubles that closely resemble the actual children - twins, at that - to fool anyone. We are not talking about hair and eyes here.

Between the one year old and five year old children?  I don't think doubles who were closely similar were needed. Hair and eyes were enough.

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And why would they do that? What would their motives be to take part in such a deception? While we don't even know who those people were we can't even speculate about that.

Because they could make a use of the situation. They could rise princesses, marry then to their families, then, under right circumstances, present the claim to the iron throne (of course claim had to be backed by the sufficient army). Aerea and Rhaella still had technically better claim than Jahaerys and his descendants.

And of course we don't know who those people were, because we don't know whom Rhaena entrusted her daughters. My prime suspects are Lannisters, Martels and/or Daynes, Hightowers. What do you think, would they resist chance to have leverage on iron throne?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

She kept her position and reputation as almighty spymistress. Her power derived from her reputation mostly, not from army or high birth.

That could be a good motive - if we had any reason to believe that Tyanna's position was in danger. Which we don't. The fact that Maegor no longer shared her bed doesn't mean he had any plans to replace her as Mistress of Whisperers.

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

She did.But those people could just have died. Or they could have lied about whereabouts of her daugthers.

Sure, but do we have any reason to believe that this was the case? No.

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Between the one year old and five year old children?  I don't think doubles who were closely similar were needed. Hair and eyes were enough.

You are talking about a mother here, not someone who only shortly interacted with the girls. They were with Rhaena at least until late 43 AC, perhaps even longer.

It is difficult to expose Prince Aegon as a fraud seventeen years after his alleged death as a baby, but that is mostly because pretty much no one knowing the man intimately as a baby is still around - and those people who might be still should no longer have that clear memories of the child.

But Aerea and Rhaella are not Aegon. Assume your child goes missing at the age of 1-2. Do you think you would be able to recognize it a few years later? And if you try - would you only check the hair and eye color? Of course not. You would look for other traits like the shape of the nose and ears, the shape of the face, length and shape of toes and fingers, etc. Not to mention birth marks or other important characteristics.

Impostors with purple eyes and silver-god hairs would have the hair and the eyes but due to the fact that they would not be children of Aegon and Rhaena they would not closely resemble their parents, their royal uncle and aunt, their royal grandmother, etc.

Vice versa, Prince Aegon may look Valyrian but - assuming he is an impostor - he is not going to resemble Elia, Doran, Oberyn, or Arianne Martell in any way, nor is he going to resemble Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Aerys II, or Rhaella. And while people might not remember little Aegon all that well, many of the people who are going to meet and interact with Aegon will remember Elia, Rhaegar, Aerys, Rhaella, Viserys, etc.

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Because they could make a use of the situation. They could rise princesses, marry then to their families, then, under right circumstances, present the claim to the iron throne (of course claim had to be backed by the sufficient army). Aerea and Rhaella still had technically better claim than Jahaerys and his descendants.

They would then be in the ridiculous situation that they would have to prove that their royal princesses are the real royal princesses. If the king and queen - as well as their own mother and grandmother - view the girls Tyanna found as the real Aerea and Rhaella that's the view the people of Westeros will take, too.

And, no, Aerea and Rhaella do not necessarily have a better claim than Jaehaerys I. He is male and they are female. They would have to challenge one of the most popular and most powerful Targaryen kings in history. A man who controls quite a few dragons.

1 hour ago, Pukisbaisals said:

And of course we don't know who those people were, because we don't know whom Rhaena entrusted her daughters. My prime suspects are Lannisters, Martels and/or Daynes, Hightowers. What do you think, would they resist chance to have leverage on iron throne?

That is the thing. We don't know who took care of the children. It is somewhat plausible that the Lannisters or some Lannister bannermen may have had something to do with that but the other houses makes no sense whatsoever - after all, what we know indicates Rhaena was in the Westerlands when she parted with her daughters.

But then - we have actually no reason to believe that noblemen of rank were involved in that at all. Perhaps Rhaena entrusted her daughters to some commoners - servants, maids, etc. - who had accompanied her and Aegon on the progress? People she had known for years and people she knew she could trust.

The impression we get is that the children were supposed to disappear - which makes it likely they were supposed to be raise outside of a conspicuous noble household and be instead handed to some commoners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You are talking about a mother here, not someone who only shortly interacted with the girls. They were with Rhaena at least until late 43 AC, perhaps even longer.

It is difficult to expose Prince Aegon as a fraud seventeen years after his alleged death as a baby, but that is mostly because pretty much no one knowing the man intimately as a baby is still around - and those people who might be still should no longer have that clear memories of the child.

But Aerea and Rhaella are not Aegon. Assume your child goes missing at the age of 1-2. Do you think you would be able to recognize it a few years later? And if you try - would you only check the hair and eye color? Of course not. You would look for other traits like the shape of the nose and ears, the shape of the face, length and shape of toes and fingers, etc. Not to mention birth marks or other important characteristics.

Impostors with purple eyes and silver-god hairs would have the hair and the eyes but due to the fact that they would not be children of Aegon and Rhaena they would not closely resemble their parents, their royal uncle and aunt, their royal grandmother, etc.

That is exactly why Tyanna didn't give Rhaena time to examine girls closely. She didn't allowed her to see them before wedding ceremony. She hoped to trick her.

It is not clear if she even succeded in that. Rhaena could understand ruse instantly, but kept playing ignorant.

Also there is possibility that imposters were provided by Rhaena's allies. In this case Tyanna was fooled.

May be most plausible is sort of combination of both. Tyanna caught some girls, but she suspected that they were imposters. So she didn't risk to show them to Rhaena before the wedding.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They would then be in the ridiculous situation that they would have to prove that their royal princesses are the real royal princesses. If the king and queen - as well as their own mother and grandmother - view the girls Tyanna found as the real Aerea and Rhaella that's the view the people of Westeros will take, too.

Yeas, such a claim would be impossible without Rhaena acknowledging princesses in public. Maybe they weren't acknowledged for that reason -   that could mean war between Rhaena's brother and her sons in law.

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, no, Aerea and Rhaella do not necessarily have a better claim than Jaehaerys I. He is male and they are female. They would have to challenge one of the most popular and most powerful Targaryen kings in history. A man who controls quite a few dragons.

Claim could be always improved by an army. Real Aerea and Rhaella probably became dragonriders and they probably expected Rhaena to join them. On the other hand, at that time nobody knew that marriage of Jahaerys and Alysanne would be so fruitful.

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But then - we have actually no reason to believe that noblemen of rank were involved in that at all. Perhaps Rhaena entrusted her daughters to some commoners - servants, maids, etc. - who had accompanied her and Aegon on the progress? People she had known for years and people she knew she could trust.

"Powerfull alies" are mentioned in TSotD. Or maybe this only interpretation of maester who wrote TSotD.

As for other great houses - Casterly Rock wasn't besieged, they could send envoys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't gotten the Book of Swords just yet, but I feel that I have to ask, does House Arryn or House Lannister do stuff under Maegor's reign or are they mostly silent, like Jeyne Arryn in the "Princess and the Queen"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, LionoftheWest said:

I haven't gotten the Book of Swords just yet, but I feel that I have to ask, does House Arryn or House Lannister do stuff under Maegor's reign or are they mostly silent, like Jeyne Arryn in the "Princess and the Queen"?

House Lannister has a more active role. Lord Lyman Lannister hosts Prince Aegon at the Rock, but does not move against Maegor the Cruel until Jaehaerys the Conciliator amkes his bid for the Throne. House Arryn is mentioned in the beginning, when Maegor suppresses Jonos the kinslayer and later the Eyrie is mentioned to have lent Jaehaerys its support. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/9/2017 at 6:42 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

This imposter case can explain why Rhaella didn’t press on Aerea’s claim. Most reasonable solution was to marry Aerea to Jahaerys (9 years senior) and thus unite the claims. But it would only had worked if she had real Aerea, not FAerea.

There doesn't need to be any explanation for why Rhaena didn't do that.  Nobody was going to back a six-year-old girl against an almost-grown man who happened to be the beau ideal of a king.  And given her age and the need to have heirs, marrying her to Jaehaerys instead of the older Alysanne wouldn't make sense either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-11-10 at 1:37 PM, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

House Lannister has a more active role. Lord Lyman Lannister hosts Prince Aegon at the Rock, but does not move against Maegor the Cruel until Jaehaerys the Conciliator amkes his bid for the Throne. House Arryn is mentioned in the beginning, when Maegor suppresses Jonos the kinslayer and later the Eyrie is mentioned to have lent Jaehaerys its support. 

Thanks. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10.11.2017 at 7:07 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

May be most plausible is sort of combination of both.

No, the most plausible scenario is that Aerea and Rhaella were simply Aerea and Rhaella.

On 10.11.2017 at 7:07 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

As for other great houses - Casterly Rock wasn't besieged, they could send envoys.

If the Lannisters were involved in the hiding of the girls - which is not unlikely - then they are also likely the people who sold them to Tyanna and Maegor. Casterly Rock stood with Maegor until Jaehaerys declared himself. And, you know, Casterly Rock may have been secure, but Lannisport was not. And Balerion burned half the castles of the Westerlands or more before Maegor turned against Oldtown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, the most plausible scenario is that Aerea and Rhaella were simply Aerea and Rhaella.

If the Lannisters were involved in the hiding of the girls - which is not unlikely - then they are also likely the people who sold them to Tyanna and Maegor. Casterly Rock stood with Maegor until Jaehaerys declared himself. And, you know, Casterly Rock may have been secure, but Lannisport was not. And Balerion burned half the castles of the Westerlands or more before Maegor turned against Oldtown.

But, since Rhaena knew that Lyman was not going to support her husband and rebel against Maegor, why trust him with the lives of her daughters?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

But, since Rhaena knew that Lyman was not going to support her husband and rebel against Maegor, why trust him with the lives of her daughters?

Well, I don't know. But the chances that she could hide her daughters without the Lannisters - or their bannermen, servants, etc. being involved - or them being in the position to find out what she did - are about zero if you ask me.

Even if she gave the girls into the care of some of her own servants who accompanied her from KL she would still have done that someplace in the Westerlands.

Edited by Lord Varys

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't know. But the chances that she could hide her daughters without the Lannisters - of their bannermen, servants, etc. being involved - or them being in the position to find out what she did - are about zero if you ask me.

Even if she gave the girls into the care of some of her own servants who accompanied her from KL she would still have done that someplace in the Westerlands.

However, no one later accused Lyman of selling Rhaena's daughters to Tyanna. It is quite possible that she had moles in the Rock (after all,Aegon and Rhaena were there for quite some time) or maybe Androw Farman, of whom Rhaena grew fond, was playing her for a fool all the time. If you ask me, possibilities are many and various.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Knight of the Winged Pig said:

However, no one later accused Lyman of selling Rhaena's daughters to Tyanna. It is quite possible that she had moles in the Rock (after all,Aegon and Rhaena were there for quite some time) or maybe Androw Farman, of whom Rhaena grew fond, was playing her for a fool all the time. If you ask me, possibilities are many and various.

We don't know anything about that, actually. TSotD only covers the reigns of Aenys and Maegor. We don't know what happened later. I don't think Jaehaerys I would fault Lord Lyman to giving in to Maegor/Tyanna. Choosing between the lives of the people of Lannisport and the lives of two girls isn't exactly all that big a choice, no? Especially in light of the fact that Aerea and Rhaella survived the whole ordeal.

Maegor's death marked the end of a dreadful era, and it is very likely that people called it a day and never looked back. They all suffered under that madman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't know. But the chances that she could hide her daughters without the Lannisters - or their bannermen, servants, etc. being involved - or them being in the position to find out what she did - are about zero if you ask me.

Even if she gave the girls into the care of some of her own servants who accompanied her from KL she would still have done that someplace in the Westerlands.

Harrenhal is in Riverlands. She might have hid the children before she crossed the western hills to Westerlands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jaak said:

Harrenhal is in Riverlands. She might have hid the children before she crossed the western hills to Westerlands.

What are you talking about? There is no reason to believe Rhaena was with Aegon when he was killed. And we do know that her children were born at Casterly Rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/8/2017 at 2:17 AM, Lord Asher Forrester said:

Oathkeeper is dyed red, could it be King's Blood? maybe removed from Gendry? Just crackpotting a little here but we do know that Valyrians and Qohorik used blood magic and Maester Pol in AWOIAF mentions that the qohorik used it on reworking VS. So not too much away from logical, just a little unbeliveble.

I know late to the party again.   Rough couple of weeks, sorry for the late response.   I'm not sure about Kings Blood so much as just living sacrificial blood in these swords.  I am of a mind that the story of the making of Light Bringer is very close or at least a portion of the recipe for making valyrian steel.   That clearly involved blood sacrifice and Nissa Nissa was no king that we know of, nor was Azor Ahai.   There is dye in OK and WW, but there was a lot of trouble involved in infusing that dye.   Tobho incanted half a hundred spells when reworking these swords.  Now the wording is a bit peculiar here with the swords drinking in light.    The dye is not light, but the light is something that is preventing the dye from taking properly.  I will offer up a spitball myself and muse that perhaps the blood sacrifice is the light?   When dealing with magic my friend, i don't think anything is impossible.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/23/2017 at 3:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

We know the dragonlords didn't care about religion. There was religious freedom in Valyria, but the dragonlords were atheists. They didn't care about gods or religion.

There burial rituals seem to be connected to the dragons they rode. It makes sense for them to burn their mortal remains without making a big religious thing out of that. Cremation is a very common thing in many cultures, anyway.

Apparently, heat/fire has an effect on the color of Valyrian steel. But that doesn't mean that has some great meaning.

Why not? They knew that the fire couldn't harm the sword. And it had been Aegon's sword.

Ah Lord Varys, yours was actually the last post I read before my hiatus.  I've not read further than your reply so I beg your pardon if this has been addressed.   I value your ideas and admit this reply let me a little flat.   

The Targs understood the importance of placating the Faith.  This was a political move, not religious.   All this did was offer up a token of faith for the rulers of Westeros.   Outside of Balor the Blessed, I didn't note any particular Faith worship from the Targs.   The Valyrians did have gods, but they also thought themselves gods, which is a curious thing considering their life spans were not increased that we are aware of. 

It's interesting that there are sphinxes at both the Citadel and Red Keep.  Vhaghar was named for a Valyrian god.    Perhaps some day we can discuss the Valyrian gods we know of.  I'm still trying to figure out how to spell all the Valyrian names.

I'm thinking the Valyrian religion probably based in dragons and fire, maybe blood.   Could be their religion was a private personal tribute, offered individually with a bit of written or maybe folklore guidance.     The Faith and R'hllor are easy to follow.  Perhaps Valyrian religion revolved around personal power or worth?  Nonetheless, as strange as the Valyrian ways were, they were not atheists.. 

I had a few hours between reading your reply and going elsewhere.   During that time I found some instances of cremation among the Westerosi, most notably, the Tullys.  You want a weird burial ritual it doesn't get any better.   So perhaps cremation means nothing really.   Our own common burial words are "ashes to ashes and dust to dust".  I admit that was a real stumbling point for me when initially reading Aegon's burial.    I'm sure Visenia knew Blackfyre wouldn't be damaged in the pyre, so fair enough on that one.   I'm not so sure the color of the blades doesn't mean something, but to each their own.  If all the gods are good we may know soon!  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Targs understood the importance of placating the Faith.  This was a political move, not religious.   All this did was offer up a token of faith for the rulers of Westeros.   Outside of Balor the Blessed, I didn't note any particular Faith worship from the Targs.   The Valyrians did have gods, but they also thought themselves gods, which is a curious thing considering their life spans were not increased that we are aware of. 

Some of the later Targaryens seem to have been pious - Princess Maegelle became a septa, her father's Hand was a septon (although one whose orthodoxy was questioned), Daeron II surrounded himself not only with maesters and Dornishmen but also septons. And then there is, of course, Baelor the Blessed and his sister Rhaena, another septa.

But it is quite clear that Aegon and his sisters, Aenys and Maegor, and even Jaehaerys and Alysanne weren't pious in any personal/meaningful sense. And neither were the Targaryens who succeeded them - Viserys I and Daemon, Rhaenyra and Aegon II, or Aegon III and Viserys II.

The Valyrians ruled the world and saw themselves as being above gods and men, but that doesn't mean they thought they were gods - just as the Romans looked down on those pathetic Hellenistic kings, would-be successors of Alexander the Great. Yet the Romans still weren't kings nor did they see themselves as such.

And it is pretty well established that the elite in antiquity used religions and sects - including Christianity - as a means to control the masses and help unify and solidify their rule. The Valyrian dragonlords obviously did something similar there.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's interesting that there are sphinxes at both the Citadel and Red Keep.  Vhaghar was named for a Valyrian god.    Perhaps some day we can discuss the Valyrian gods we know of.  I'm still trying to figure out how to spell all the Valyrian names.

There were hundreds or thousands of Valyrian gods. Perhaps Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, Syrax, Caraxes, etc. were important Valyrian deities. Perhaps they were not. That is not important since we now know that Valyria didn't have a state religion.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I'm thinking the Valyrian religion probably based in dragons and fire, maybe blood.   Could be their religion was a private personal tribute, offered individually with a bit of written or maybe folklore guidance.     The Faith and R'hllor are easy to follow.  Perhaps Valyrian religion revolved around personal power or worth?  Nonetheless, as strange as the Valyrian ways were, they were not atheists.. 

Again, Valyria was a place of religious tolerance. It was a cosmopolitan religion like ancient Rome. If named a pet after a god from ancient Rome (or a god worshiped in present day New York) then you don't necessarily know from what pantheon or religion the name of that god is derived from. It could be from any religion in the world (known at that time).

Religion has nothing to do with the whole dragonlord thing. Magic does. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I had a few hours between reading your reply and going elsewhere.   During that time I found some instances of cremation among the Westerosi, most notably, the Tullys.  You want a weird burial ritual it doesn't get any better.   So perhaps cremation means nothing really.   Our own common burial words are "ashes to ashes and dust to dust".  I admit that was a real stumbling point for me when initially reading Aegon's burial.    I'm sure Visenia knew Blackfyre wouldn't be damaged in the pyre, so fair enough on that one.   I'm not so sure the color of the blades doesn't mean something, but to each their own.  If all the gods are good we may know soon!  

It seems clear that the dragonlords cremated their dead - perhaps usually via pyres that were lighted with dragonfire - because of their own affinity with dragons. But cremation is just as much a common burial practice in Martinworld (think of the Dothraki) as it is in our world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Some of the later Targaryens seem to have been pious - Princess Maegelle became a septa, her father's Hand was a septon (although one whose orthodoxy was questioned), Daeron II surrounded himself not only with maesters and Dornishmen but also septons. And then there is, of course, Baelor the Blessed and his sister Rhaena, another septa.

But it is quite clear that Aegon and his sisters, Aenys and Maegor, and even Jaehaerys and Alysanne weren't pious in any personal/meaningful sense. And neither were the Targaryens who succeeded them - Viserys I and Daemon, Rhaenyra and Aegon II, or Aegon III and Viserys II.

The Valyrians ruled the world and saw themselves as being above gods and men, but that doesn't mean they thought they were gods - just as the Romans looked down on those pathetic Hellenistic kings, would-be successors of Alexander the Great. Yet the Romans still weren't kings nor did they see themselves as such.

And it is pretty well established that the elite in antiquity used religions and sects - including Christianity - as a means to control the masses and help unify and solidify their rule. The Valyrian dragonlords obviously did something similar there.

Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, Syrax, Caraxes, etc. were important Valyrian deities. Perhaps they were not. That is not important since we now knowThere were hundreds or thousands of Valyrian gods. Perhaps that Valyria didn't have a state religion.

Again, Valyria was a place of religious tolerance. It was a cosmopolitan religion like ancient Rome. If named a pet after a god from ancient Rome (or a god worshiped in present day New York) then you don't necessarily know from what pantheon or religion the name of that god is derived from. It could be from any religion in the world (known at that time).

Religion has nothing to do with the whole dragonlord thing. Magic does. 

It seems clear that the dragonlords cremated their dead - perhaps usually via pyres that were lighted with dragonfire - because of their own affinity with dragons. But cremation is just as much a common burial practice in Martinworld (think of the Dothraki) as it is in our world.

Thanks so much for responding so quickly.    As you can see I was trying to bold some of your text and ended up moving things.    I've got to quit trying to quote!  You mentioned the word pantheon which I hadn't previously put with the Valyrians, but it's a nice fit and even helps to give a really good idea about how it was.   You went Roman, I went Greek, but the idea is the same.   That really clicked with me and opened up maybe a clearer path to seeing how those Valyrians operated. The one thing I was able to look up before going MIA was funeral practices.    Though I still imagine there is something to the ashes to ashes fire to fire thing with the Valyrians cremation isn't uncommon at all in Westeros.    I'll pick your encyclopedic brain now if you don't mind...how do the Dothraki dispose of their dead?  

You were great to address all and I really appreciate the time you take with us and getting it all relied and posted like lightning.   Thanks a lot Lord Varys.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I tend to think that Maegor was fertile and Tyanna was really a poisoner.

If this is true, then curious possibilities occur. First, at time of Maegor’s death   Rhaena could be on early stage of pregnancy.  With Elinor pregnant and other wives dead Maegor probably visited Rhaena more often. And, if Tyanna really was poisoner, then nothing threatened Raena’s child after her death.  So Rhaena could even give Maegor a healthy posthumous child. Such child would be a huge inconvenience to Targaryen clan, so they probably raised him under false identity.  Farman, perhaps?

Another possibility – Rhaenyra’s daughter probably also was poisoned (maesters?). Rhaenyra gave birth to five healthy sons before Vysenya and Daemon fathered two healthy daughters. It is difficult to explain why Vysenya was malformed, unless as a girl she got too much of dragon blood from her pure dragon parents.

 

Further some tiny details which, to my opinion, speak in favour of Tyanna as poisoner.

Tyanna predicted, that Elinor’s child also will be monstrous. She could know this if she poisoned her herself, else she knew something for sure about Maegor’s nature. But Vysenya also had to be aware on Maegor’s nature and she seemed to believe that Alys Stokeworth could give heir to Maegor.

Monstrosities of Maegor’s wives looked a little bit different. Fetuses of Jeyne and Alys were similar, but one of Elinor’s was as at different stage of development, with wings. Tyanna died when Elinor was still pregnant, maybe thus poisoning was interrupted and fetus evolved to different stage of development. Of course it could be explained in right opposite way – Maegor was sterile and monstrosities were result of Tyannas efforts to get children (interrupted in Elinor’s case, thus her monstrosity looked different).

There is also one a little bit suspicious moment involving Ceryse. When septon Murmison tried to make her fertile (at that time nobody yet suspected, that Maegor was the one who was sterile) she run to Oldtown. If women wanted to give heir to the prince she would probably tried all possible means, whatever stupid they may look. Maybe Ceryse avoided pregnancy herself and was afraid that Murmison could discover that.

I think strongest argument on Maegor’s sterility is absence of his bastards. But Maegor was never told to frequent brothels. Maybe he didn’t need to, he was married at very early age and later had multiple wives. True family guy.

On the other hand if Tyanna controlled fertility of his wives, she could also get rid of all possible bastards and their mothers. As a spy mistress she had all means for that and no scruples. Then the only gap of time, when Maegor could sire a bastard was after Tyanna’s death, during last months of his own life. Silver Denys fits this timeline if we believe, that he was trying dragonriding on his 80th anniversary. But if he inherited Maegor’s strength and temper, why not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now