Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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On 9-2-2018 at 10:55 PM, animalia said:

Does the paperback version fix the issues with inaccuracies?

Haven't read anything about that yet. However, this errata page contains all those found thus far, with confirmed corrections (for as far as they are known).

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6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Haven't read anything about that yet. However, this errata page contains all those found thus far, with confirmed corrections (for as far as they are known).

Dang all those extra inconsistencies are what have kept me out of buying the book. I don't suppose any fan has created a "cleaned up" version of Sons Of The Dragon" have they?

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Posted (edited)

On 10/9/2017 at 10:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

No problem.

But you can buy and view ebooks also at your computer, tablet, etc. via an app. It is not that difficult.

I leave with the eerie remark that Maegor and Ceryse reconciled after he came to Oldtown for his coronation (and the executions of a lot of people) and even took her back with him to KL where she shared his bed again.

The Tyanna finale is spun in a way that indicates that she might actually have poisoned the children. She calmly confesses the truth when Maegor and his buddies are merely setting up the torture instruments. However, Maegor had already decided that she was to blame prior to that.

Visenya gets a pretty bad exit, having her flesh melt away in old age, becoming very haggard and thin.

The piece focuses very strongly on Maegor's opponents - the High Septons and the many champions and protagonists of the Faith Militant. Damon Morrigen was the grand captain of the Warrior's Sons, and Joffrey Doggett and Septon Moon are not just two dudes. They were major players. Maegor had even a female leader of the Poor Fellows fighting against him.

Oh, and we get all the names of the champions during the Trial of Seven. I don't recall them right now but the first one to agree to stand with Maegor is a commoner named Dick Bean - a very touching scene - who shames the knights into standing with Maegor (the Kingsguard could not accompany Maegor and Visenya to KL on dragonback).

One is the squire of the late Alyn Stokeworth, Bernarr Brune.

Spoiler

Only then did the first knight step forward. “This bean shames us all,” he shouted. “Are there no true knights here? No leal men?” The speaker was Bernarr Brune, the squire who had slain Harren the Red and been knighted by King Aenys himself. His scorn drove others to offer their swords. The names of the four Maegor chose are writ large in the history of Westeros: Ser Bramm of Blackhull, a hedge knight; Ser Rayford Rosby; Ser Guy Lothston, called Guy the Glutton; and Ser Lucifer Massey, Lord of Stonedance. The names of the seven Warrior’s Sons have likewise come down to us. They were: Ser Damon Morrigen, called Damon the Devout, Grand Captain of the Warrior’s Sons; Ser Lyle Bracken; Ser Harys Horpe, called Death’s Head Harry; Ser Aegon Ambrose; Ser Dickon Flowers, the Bastard of Beesbury; Ser Willam the Wanderer; and Ser Garibald of the Seven Stars, the septon knight. 

 

 

Very interesting parallels with Dunk’s trial by 7. Of course the “no true knights” reteric directed at a group was in both instances but a bit inverse, in that dunk was battling against a Targ while Maegor was the one in need in his fight.  

A bracken fought against a targ in both instances 

House Lothston seems to be extremely loyal to the targs for their entirety even after The unworthy as we know Danelle at least sent Aid to Bloodraven at whitewalls (and were eventually awarded the curse of harenhall and a hand of the king gig for that apparent lotalty) so it makes sense their ancestor stood in

Ill throw out that House Beesbury seems all over the place in their beliefs of the royal inheritance. 

The Rosby guy is makes sense in that they surrendered peacefully to the targs choosing them over House Hoare probably and apparently once again

Speaking of Hoares the man who killed Harren the red Bernarr Brune was also the guy who rallied the troops. Dick bean stood while Brune shamed them. Only thing odd with that is he was knighted by Aenys himself and you’d think he wouldn’t be so fond of Maegor especially at the usurping coronation. 

Does all of this sound/work ok? Most are obviously pure speculation obviously but I think the names across history that long is somewhat important.

 

Edited by One-eyed Misbehavin
Misread a detail

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On 13.2.2018. at 3:01 PM, Blooddragon said:

Do you think that Rhaella Targaryen (daughter of Aegon) could've been mother of Otto Hightower?

When we last heard of her she was at the Hightower and was saved by Lord Hightower. I believe that she could've married one of his heirs out of gratitude or maybe simply they fell in love and that was the reason why the Lord saved her. 

That also can explain why Ser Otto was a hand to Jaehaerys I and why his daughter married Viserys I.

I would be glad if someone told me their opinion on this. Thanks.

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16 hours ago, Blooddragon said:

I would be glad if someone told me their opinion on this. Thanks.

Well, I remember tossing around the idea that Otto Hightower may have had a Targaryen grandmother, explaining why Lord Beesbury claimed that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brother. But that was when only TPatQ was out. With TRP it seems that neither Otto nor Alicent had so much as a drop of Targaryen blood since it simply doesn't come up when Viserys I's decision to marry Alicent comes up in the text. When Alicent is discussed they say that her noble Hightower blood makes her a proper queen and all, and nobody can really object to the king's decision (presumably despite the fact that Alicent is merely a knight's daughter, the granddaughter of a previous Lord of Oldtown).

One should assume that it would have come up that Otto's grandmother may have been Princess Rhaella Targaryen if that had been the case.

But then - as we later learned George actually only laid out the reigns of Aegon, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, the Dance, and the Regency of Aegon III in detail.

About Jaehaerys I's long reign there exists little more than the stuff we got in TWoIaF. We simply don't know yet what happened to Rhaena and her daughters. Which means that it isn't impossible that it turns out that Rhaella is Otto's grandmother. The decision to make her a septa was made by Maegor, and Rhaena, Alyssa Velaryon, and Jaehaerys I may have not approved of that after the fact. And the Lord of Oldtown apparently went out of his way to protect Rhaella from Maegor's wrath, defying his command. It is certainly possible that she became his ward after that, and was eventually married to his son or grandson.

With Jaehaerys I and Alysanne not yet married in 48 AC it also wouldn't be very wise of Alyssa Velaryon to remove Rhaella permanently from the pool of viable heirs by making her a septa. Maegor didn't really want Aegon's girls to succeed him. He just made Aerea his presumptive heir until he finally had the (male) heir of his own body he so desperately wanted. For his purpose one grandniece - the elder one - was enough. The spare Rhaella was not necessary. But if Jaehaerys I and Alysanne had had trouble producing (healthy) children everybody would have looked to Aerea and Rhaella as the ones to continue the Targaryen bloodline and producing potential heirs of Jaehaerys I.

Still, in light of the fact that we have this whole 'nine lesser claimants' thing at the Great Council of 101 AC, it is not that likely that Otto Hightower - the Hand who presided over the council - and his children had Targaryen blood. After all, some of those lesser claimants must have been descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, and Rhaella since we do know that the descendants of Jaehaerys I supported either Laenor Velaryon or Prince Viserys.

There is also the possibility that there were illegitimate Targaryens - or the descendants of illegitimate Targaryens around. Say, grandchildren of acknowledged bastards of King Aenys, (children of) bastards of Jaehaerys I (if such people existed) or acknowledged bastards of Jaehaerys I's sons Aemon, Baelon, and Vaegon.

Such could also have made up part of the lesser claimants. But at least some of those lesser claimants should have been legitimate descendants of King Aenys through the female line - which means they must have been descendants of Rhaena, Aerea, or Rhaella.

For Rhaena TSotD introduced a potential third husband in the guise of the second son of the Lord of Fair Isle, Androw Farman. It may turn out that Rhaena married this man after Maegor's death, also explaining why Jaehaerys I didn't take both his sisters to wife like Aegon the Conqueror did. After all, Targaryen tradition in Aegon's days demanded that a man marry his older sister. If Jaehaerys I was already as deeply in love with Alysanne as he later was at the age of fourteen tradition should have caused to marry Alysanne in addition to Rhaena - like Aegon married Rhaenys in addition to Visenya.

However, that never happened. And it is very odd that Jaehaerys I would marry Alysanne in a political/arranged rather than his older sister who had not only been queen at Maegor's side and a pretender queen at the side of Jaehaerys I's older brother, Prince Aegon, but had also proven her fertility by giving Aegon twin girls.

One assumes there would have been a discussion what to do with Princess/Queen Dowager Rhaena Targaryen. A very good explanation as to why she didn't marry a third king may very well have been that she wanted to finally follow her heart and settle down with the man she loved on Fair Isle.

Depending how many children they had there could have been both Targaryen-Farmans and other Westermen with Targaryen-Farman blood trying to lay claim to the Iron Throne in 101 AC.

And if Rhaella ended up marrying into House Hightower then Otto - being of the lesser branch of House Hightower - might have refused to support the claim of his older brother, the Lord of Oldtown, when the man presented his claim at the Great Council. After all, his way to take control of the Iron Throne was much more subtle, revolving around getting his daughter into the pants of various kings and princes.

The question who Aerea married in the end is also very interesting. But we don't know anything about that at this point, either.

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@Lord Varys

Quote

Well, I remember tossing around the idea that Otto Hightower may have had a Targaryen grandmother, explaining why Lord Beesbury claimed that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brother.

This makes no sense to me. Beesbury was right that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brothers when putting forth his argument. I don't see why this would lead to speculation that the Hightowers had Targaryen blood.

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36 minutes ago, Ran said:

@Lord Varys

This makes no sense to me. Beesbury was right that Rhaenyra had more Targaryen blood than her half-brothers when putting forth his argument. I don't see why this would lead to speculation that the Hightowers had Targaryen blood.

Oh, it was just an idea I remember tossing around when first reading TPatQ. At that point, we had no idea what had happened to all of Jaehaerys I's daughters and to any of of the other descendants King Aenys (and Aegon the Conqueror) may have had. The revelation that Rhaenys and Visenya had only one son each came as a considerable surprise to all of us.

And we didn't even have the names of the many wives of Maegor the Cruel at that point, if I'm not mistaken.

In light of the incest marriage policy - as well as Viserys I's first marriage to a cousin - it wasn't that far-fetched to assume that Alicent Hightower may have been an even more distant cousin of Viserys I on the Targaryen side, allowing her to marry the king. 

With what we know now about the constant attempts of the Hightowers to marry into House Targaryen - first Aegon, then succeeding with - it makes more sense that the Viserys-Alicent match wasn't challenged.

In fact, the impression one gets is that the Hightowers are seen as the second most noble bloodline of Westeros after the Targaryens, due to the prestige that comes with their age, wealth, and influence over the Faith and the Citadel.

Thus I'd agree that it makes perfect sense for the Viserys-Alicent match to play out as it does in TRP. The king falls in love with a young woman who happens to be of an impeccable noble bloodline that allows her to marry said king without causing a scandal.

But the idea of Princess Rhaella marrying into House Hightower is still an interesting possibility/idea, is it not? Somewhat more interesting than her just becoming a septa.

Still, it would likely be more interesting if those nine lesser claimants came from other houses and bloodlines than the Hightowers. Some Targaryen-Farmans sound pretty interesting to me, and Aerea (and Rhaella) founding other (now obscure) cadet branches of House Targaryen through the female line would be pretty interesting.

The Strongs might be an interesting possibility, too.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, it would likely be more interesting if those nine lesser claimants came from other houses and bloodlines than the Hightowers. Some Targaryen-Farmans sound pretty interesting to me, and Aerea (and Rhaella) founding other (now obscure) cadet branches of House Targaryen through the female line would be pretty interesting.

I was always a big fan of the theory that Rhaena married the man she loved, that young Farman, which brings us to the possibility that one of Rhaena's daughters could've married a Lannister Lord, passing Targaryen blood to modern day Lannisters. That could show us how many people in Westeros, actually, do have Targaryen blood, even if it is from 200 years before.

I hope we get to know more about later lives of these three and, of course, who nine claimants were in Fire and Blood. 

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13 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

I was always a big fan of the theory that Rhaena married the man she loved, that young Farman, which brings us to the possibility that one of Rhaena's daughters could've married a Lannister Lord, passing Targaryen blood to modern day Lannisters. That could show us how many people in Westeros, actually, do have Targaryen blood, even if it is from 200 years before.

Since Lord Tymond Lannister threw his support behind Prince Viserys' claim at the Great Council I doubt a member of the major branch of House Lannister is going to turn out to be one of those lesser claimants. In that sense, the Lannisters are in a similar position as the Hightowers there - with Tymond and Otto strongly supporting Viserys it makes not that much sense to assume they themselves or their relations laid claim to the Iron Throne themselves.

But, still, people are strange sometimes. Aenys Blackfyre also thought he had a better claim than 'King Daemon III Blackfyre', etc.

An Alysanne Farman was the first wife of Gerold Lannister. But they had no issue. Still, the Farmans seem to be one of the most prestigious and powerful houses of the West, making it not unlikely at all that there were multiple marriages between them and the Lannisters.

But then - Androw Farman was only the second son of Lord Farman. Unless Rhaena and Androw's children married into House Lannister (or the elder son, and Androw became the next Lord of Fair Isle)it is not very likely that the Lords of Casterly Rock some generations down the line married their heirs to the children of (landless) knights or whatever. Targaryen blood or not, the Lannisters are proud. 

But with the six Targaryen-Hightower girls it is really impossible to say who has a drop of the blood of the dragon and who doesn't. Pretty much everybody could, if some of those girls were as fertile as Queen Alysanne.

And I'm pretty sure Ronnel and Aelinor Penrose are both descended from Rhaena and Garmund Hightower. Perhaps even Jena Dondarrion.

13 minutes ago, Blooddragon said:

I hope we get to know more about later lives of these three and, of course, who nine claimants were in Fire and Blood. 

One assumes the newly written section on the reign of the Old King in 'Fire and Blood' touches on those subjects. Aside from such family matters and marriage arrangement there shouldn't be a lot of interesting stuff to cover, anyway.

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