Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

577 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

A lot of the resistance to his reign seemed to be akin to the BwB, in that it was mostly smallfolk based. 

The smallfolk were the ones backing the Faith Militant. Most lords were already accomplices of the Targaryens at that point. And, of course, there were other commoners - especially in KL and the Crownlands - who had grown to be Targaryen fans during the reigns of Aegon and Aenys. 

One has to notice that Maegor never actually has to raise an army all by himself. He commands, and the lords and knights obey. That's how it was in those glorious days of absolute rule. Until it wasn't. When Jaehaerys was a viable alternative.

Maegor really seems to have been a very deluded person. He actually was angry when people called him 'Maegor the Cruel' and 'kinslayer'. What did he think he was? A forgiving and generous monarch?

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Tyanna has a strong Varys vibe: spymaster connected to a Pentoshi magister, associates with spiders and rats (counterpart to mice) and engages in assassination and sorcery. I think she and Maegor deserve each other. Both are pretty sadistic psychopaths. 

That corpse wedding in the burned ruin of the Sept of Remembrance is really telling there. They were really fucked up.

Tyanna could be a nod to Tolkien's Queen Berúthiel. It is not cats she speaks with to uncover secrets but rats and other animals but there could be a parallel there.

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Before Sons of the Dragon, did we know that no common fire could harm Valyrian steel? 

Only from reports on TSotD as far as I recall.

6 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Doesn't this read like the High Septon who anointed Aenys is the same High Septon who anointed Aegon? But of course that doesn't make sense because the High Septon who anointed Aegon died in 11 AC, and there were numerous High Septons after that.

That doesn't have to be a mistake. Every new High Septon supposedly anoints the ruling king anew. There is only one coronation but the High Septon is expected to give his blessing - or whatever the point of the ritual is - upon his own ascension.

If you recall, the fact that the High Sparrow has not yet agreed to anoint Tommen is what causes Cersei to go to him in AFfC. But Tommen ascended to the throne in ASoS and would have been crowned and anointed off-screen by the High Sparrow's predecessor, the High Septon of Tyrion's making.

If a king was only anointed once by a High Septon during his coronation then there wouldn't have been any issue with the High Sparrow.

6 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

This line caught my eye, given the legend that dragons come from the moon.

It seems to me more like a general evocation of doom there. Both for the Targaryens as such - due to the rift in the house - as well as to Aenys personally - who most likely was murdered by Visenya.

6 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

5) Maegor's Trial of Seven obviously brings to mind Dunk's Trial of Seven. Specifically, Bernarr Brune's "Are there no true knights here?" is reminiscent of Dunk's "ARE THERE NO TRUE KNIGHTS AMONG YOU?" And Maegor received "a terrible blow to the head that cracked his helm and left him insensate" which is similar to how Baelor died.

Yeah, there are parallels there. Although one wonders what the hell the rationale for the entire charade was? Why did Maegor risk his own life if he later just burns the sept, anyway? Why didn't Vhagar and Balerion burn the sept in the first place, avoiding any potentially dangerous confrontation?

Sure, the Trial of Seven gives Maegor a propaganda victory and helps him draw the reluctant Targaryen loyalists back to their side, but considering Maegor's personality there should have been a discussion about this, with Visenya slapping some sense into her moron of son.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Just finished my first read of TSotD and I'm quite happy to have new ASoI&F material to discuss. I have to say I see absolutely no evidence here that there was an agreement between Aegon, Aenys, or Maegor with the Faith to limit Targaryen marriage customs either in the area of polygamy or in what the Faith considers to be incest.

I think I never said that, but it is quite clear that neither polygamy nor incestuous marriages were seen as lawful by the Faith. When Maegor came to Oldtown he broke the Faith, of course, then they agreed to everything. But the status of the Conqueror's marriages was unclear - it was neither openly condemned nor declared legal. Now, it is clear that familiarity bred acceptance there in many people, especially those lords who saw polygamy as a means to throw their daughters at the royals, but not in the Faith - especially not the more extremist factions.

And we have to note that it actually seems that the Poor Fellows never really disappeared. They disappeared as an official order but not as an ideology or tradition.

Once the Faith breaks with the Targaryens in the wake of Prince Maegor's second marriage it is quite clear that this marriage is not seen as valid by the Faith. That changes when the High Septon is killed and the Faith itself broken and forced under the thumb of the Iron Throne, but by then Prince Maegor is King Maegor, and kings are above the law.

The idea that a prince can do or get away with the same things a king can is simply wrong.

I never said anything about there being an agreement between Aegon or Aenys and the Faith about the incest or polygamy thing, by the way. It was an unresolved issue, but it was quite clear that the Faith objected to all of that and still had the power to condemn and oppose such things while they were not yet broken.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The closest to any agreement we see is a communication between the High Septon and Aegon about Visenya's proposal of a marriage between the twelve year old Prince Maegor and the new born Rhaena. Not only is there objection to the marriage from the Faith, but also from Rhaena's parents, Prince Aenys and Princess Alyssa. With the suggestion of Ceryse Hightower as an alternative bride, Aegon agrees to this second match for Maegor in an attempt to keep the Faith's support. But here it is important to note that this concerns incest, not polygamy. We know from the wedding of Aenys's children that there is no support for a ban on such marriages that the Targaryens have agreed to.

From the way incest is defined in TSotD - as sexual intercourse between siblings and parents and children - the Rhaena-Maegor match actually does not constitute incest (we know such marriages don't seem to be uncommon among the Starks and perhaps even among other noble families) nor is it condemned by the High Septon as such.

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Queen Visenya proposed to settle the matter by betrothing Rhaena to Maegor, who had just turned twelve. Aenys and Alyssa spoke out against the match, however…and when word reached Oldtown’s Starry Sept, the High Septon sent a raven, warning the king that such a marriage would not be looked upon with favor by the Faith. He proposed a different bride for Maegor: Ceryse Hightower, maiden daughter to the Lord of Oldtown (and the High Septon’s own niece). Aegon, mindful of the advantages of closer ties with Oldtown and its ruling House, saw wisdom in the choice and agreed to the match.

This isn't a condemnation nor phrased as 'this is incest, don't do it' but rather a warning that this is seen as too much like the incest you abominations are used to do, and we don't want to give the impression that you want to continue those ways, do we?

At that point the issue seems partly motivated by the kin marriage thing but in equal part also by the ambitions of the High Septon and the Hightowers. To force Aegon to marry Ceryse to his one of his sons they have to give him a reason. And the uncle-niece match Visenya was entertaining gives them the opportunity they need.

It isn't mentioned but I'd not be surprised if Ceryse - due to her age - was also suggested to Aegon as a bride for Aenys. Assuming the Targaryens didn't arrange that match within the extended family itself - which is actually rather likely -, perhaps even years before it was publicly announced.

How polygamy was seen - and not only by the Faith - while the Faith still had teeth is pretty clear:

Quote

Then His Grace announced his intent to take Tyanna of Pentos as his third wife. Though it was whispered that his mother the Queen Dowager had no love for the Pentoshi sorceress, only Grand Maester Myres dared speak against her openly. “Your one true wife awaits you in the Hightower,” Myres said. The king heard him out in silence, then descended from the throne, drew Blackfyre, and slew him where he stood.

Maegor Targaryen and Tyanna of the Tower were wed atop the Hill of Rhaenys, amidst the ashes and bones of the Warrior’s Sons who had died there. It was said that Maegor had to put a dozen septons to death before he found one willing to perform the ceremony.

[...]

Across the realm in Oldtown, the High Septon was loud in his denunciations of “the abomination and his whores,” whilst the king’s first wife, Ceryse of House Hightower, continued to insist that she was Maegor’s only lawful queen.

[...]

His High Holiness responded from the Starry Sept, commanding the king to present himself in Oldtown, to beg the forgiveness of the gods for his sins and cruelties. Many of the Faithful echoed his defiance.

[...]

At the town of Stoney Sept, Septon Moon appeared to denounce King Maegor’s wedding plans, and hundreds of townfolk cheered wildly, but few others dared to raise their voices against His Grace.

 

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50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'd love to get a story from Visenya's POV.

I think of her as Livia Augusta with a dragon.

Well, the travesty of Livia from I, Claudius actually seems to be worse than Visenya. She favored her own bloodline over Augustus', and did everything in her power to ensure that her son succeeded him.

Visenya didn't actually kill Aegon's grandchildren, and if she killed Aenys then this was indeed for the best of the Realm and the legacy of her house in that moment. But for what it is worth she seems to have been the only one who could keep Maegor in check, convincing to not kill everyone.

And it also seems - as I long suspected - that she was the one who actually protected Alyssa and her children while she was still alive. Prince Aegon died in battle - a battle he himself started. Those things can happen. But I'm pretty sure nobody would have treated Viserys the way Maegor eventually did while Visenya was still alive. One also assumed that she gave Alyssa and the Velaryons believable concessions that she and her children would not be harmed while attending Maegor's third wedding in KL.

But in the end she wasn't a nice person. She should have have prevented Maegor from taking a second wife instead of supporting him in that, not to mention that she shouldn't have helped him seize the throne later on. Yes, he was her son and all, but he wasn't suited to rule, either. His attempts to remain in power nearly destroyed everything Visenya built and worked her entire life to maintain.

One hopes George takes his time with the account of Jaehaerys and Alysanne. If he includes a detailed account of his childhood, relationship with his parents and Maegor, etc. then there is a chance there to have the young Jaehaerys speak with his grandaunt on her deathbed. Perhaps she realizes that she should have backed him rather than mad Maegor?

But back to that Quicksilver conundrum for a moment:

This whole thing really seems to be an unsolvable puzzle.

We know that Quicksilver was on Dragonstone when Aenys died there, because Visenya actually urged Aenys to his dragon to rain fire down on the Starry Sept. She wouldn't have done that if Aegon and Rhaena had taken the dragon with them on their progress - which doesn't make a lot of sense, anyway.

We know Aegon spends the entire time prior to his campaign in the Westerlands so there is essentially no chance for him to get to Dragonstone to claim the dragon there. Assuming he made that rather long journey - although somewhat shorter if Rhaena took him across the contingent on Dreamfyre - one wonders whether Aegon would return with Quicksilver to the Westerlands rather than, say, take possession of Dragonstone and KL in the absence of Maegor - who, at that time, was in Oldtown.

In that sense the best conundrum to resolve that issue is that someone must have brought Quicksilver to Aegon at Casterly Rock to mount him. But who could that have been? And how might that have worked? I daresay that a dragon transport by ship is out of the question. Quicksilver was only a quarter the size of Balerion but that is still not exactly small. Who would have tried to transport a riderless dragon this size on his ship? How could Quicksilver have been prevented from burning the ship down?

That scenario doesn't make a lot of sense.

The only thing that sounds remotely plausible to me if another dragonrider who - along with his dragon - got along really well with Quicksilver and thus could convince her to accompany them - sort of like Prince Daemon and Caraxes could take Vhagar from Pentos to Driftmark while Laena was going by ship with the girls.

But who could that have been?

Princess Rhaena could have done it with Dreamfyre - but her pregnancy and stay at Casterly Rock doesn't make that very likely. I think the best idea there could have been if it was Viserys' doing - but for that we would have to assume that the boy was a dragonrider, too.

Has anybody come up with a different or even better explanation?

And the other dragon things:

We have Rhaena with Dreamfyre in the Westerlands. Even if we assume that Aegon didn't have a dragon of his own before he claimed Quicksilver - which I still find unbelievable considering that he was Aenys' heir apparent - how on earth could anyone besiege Rhaena and Aegon anywhere if they had a dragon. They could have just flown away, right? Surely Dreamfyre was large enough so that she could carry two people - and if not then just Rhaena alone, right?

The siege thing only makes sense if they were separated from the dragon for a while. Say, there was a surprise attack by the Poor Fellows at one point and Aegon's dragon was killed and Dreamfyre injured and separated from Rhaena who then only reunited with her after the siege of Crakehall was lifted. And if she was injured that could also explain why Dreamfyre and Rhaena did not accompany Aegon on his campaign.

The idea that Rhaena could not hide with Dreamfyre while apparently Alysanne and Jaehaerys could hide very well and effectively with their dragons in the Stormlands - or even directly at Storm's End - is hilarious. As is the idea that Alyssa and the children could have fled with two dragons on a ship. Again - who would agree to transport fire-breathing dragons on a ship?

To make sense of this dragon-traveling things all members of the royal family should have had a dragon of their own (and if Alyssa doesn't have a dragon she could ride on Quicksilver with Aenys). When the court moves or the royal family travels the country then the royals use their dragons while the mortal men go by horse, foot, or ship. The impression we get when Aenys moves his family to Dragonstone is that they all go by ship. That simply doesn't make any sense.

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Can somebody please explain this expression... "The corning of the new year." I get the context, but I have never heard that before. 

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One more inaccuracy here:

Quote

His Grace ordered his mother’s body burned, her bones and ashes interred beside those of her brother and sister

As far as I remember it was said dornishmen never gave Rhaenys's body back.

Did they do it eventually or it's another mistake?

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Can somebody please explain this expression... "The corning of the new year." I get the context, but I have never heard that before. 

Oh, that seems to be another instance where there is some sort of converging issue. Some program seems to have had read 'm' as 'rn' there. That is an unlikely typo.

1 hour ago, DanaKz said:

One more inaccuracy here:

As far as I remember it was said dornishmen never gave Rhaenys's body back.

Did they do it eventually or it's another mistake?

It could be that Aegon finally got her remains. He and Aenys visited Deria for that ten-year anniversary of the peace treaty, and they could have reached some final agreement there. Not to mention that we still have no clue what has been written in that letter. Could very well be that Rhaenys did indeed survive the fall and was then - at first - tortured by the Ullers but finally taken into the care of Nymor and Deria who used her as a hostage against Aegon. And then they may have sent him her remains after her natural death in the 20s or 30s, or whenever she died.

Or there was some sort of proxy funeral on Dragonstone.

Or that's simply a mistake.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

In that sense the best conundrum to resolve that issue is that someone must have brought Quicksilver to Aegon at Casterly Rock to mount him.

Sunfyre found Aegon II on his own, so perhaps a similar scenario occurred here with Quicksilver and Aegon?

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2 hours ago, DanaKz said:

As far as I remember it was said dornishmen never gave Rhaenys's body back.

Did they do it eventually or it's another mistake?

TWOIAF stated that "Queen Rhaenys's body was never returned to King's Landing." Although that implies that her remains remained in Dorne, I suppose you could read it (combined with the info of the quote from TSOTD) to mean that Aegon did eventually received her ashes, but that her cremation had occurred in Dorne itself.

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Ran,

Could you perhaps clarify which date for the High Septon's death and Maegor's threat to Oldtown is the correct one? 43 AC, as stated in Sons of the Dragon, or 44 AC, as stated in TWOIAF?

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Tyanna could be a nod to Tolkien's Queen Berúthiel. It is not cats she speaks with to uncover secrets but rats and other animals but there could be a parallel there.

 

Oh yeah.
 
Quote

Why didn't Vhagar and Balerion burn the sept in the first place, avoiding any potentially dangerous confrontation?

 

He thought he could win, and did.  Major propaganda victory given the oaths around it.  I have no problem.
 
Major question on the wiki, actually, but I take the Maegor-Rhaena thing as evidence that avuncular marriage was considered incest; first cousin marriage was practiced commonly (Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells, etc.).  Important gradations of incest (medieval law is full of this stuff).
Who can know the mind of a dragon?  Mayhaps after Aenys died, Quicksilver flew away from Dragonstone and sought out his son Aegon at Casterly Rock.
 
Why didn't Rhaenya join Aegon with Dreamfyre during his campaign?  If their odds were so desperate?  Needed to protect her infant daughters?
 
A siege would never work with Dreamfyre there.
 
***IDEA:  Rhaena left Dreamfyre on Dragonstone during the royal progress.  When Aenys died, Dreamfyre eventually left to find Rhaena - homing instinct, like Sunfyre and Aegon II.  All Quicksilver had to do was follow Dreamfyre (he wasn't bonded to Aegon yet and thus couldn't home in on him).
 
Dreamfyre laid two clutches of eggs.  Who sired them?  Was she a mated pair with Quicksilver?  Parallel to Vermithor/Silverwing?  But...Quicksilver is referred to as female.  As if that was set in stone...
 
Vermithor and Silverwing were a lot smaller at the time than an adult, ridable dragon.  Daenerys took smallish dragons from Qarth to Astapor via ship.
 
Rhaenys's ashes...yeah; as said above, maybe she was just cremated in Dorne eventually.  Interesting.

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What is your take on Maegor's death?

The Yandel account about him being broken, etc. made the suicide idea rather likely but George's Maegor doesn't seem to be broken in TSotD. He is just the prick he always was when he beheaded Lord Hayford, and there is no sign that he was suffering from depression or had any intention of ending his own life.

Maegor's own end also completely ignores the advantage Balerion would have still given him. Lord Baratheon can talk about the 2-3 dragons they have all they long, but Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing were all no match for Balerion - assuming Silverwing was big enough to be used as a dragon in battle at that time, and Alysanne experienced enough to fly to battle, which seems to be doubtful.

If Alyssa Velaryon had claimed Vhagar after the death of Visenya things would have been different. She - along with the younger dragons - would have been more than a match for Balerion.

But the other point is that suicide seems to be silly move if you have still other options left. And while you have a dragon as large as Balerion there is always another option. Maegor could have pulled an Aemond or a Nettles, leaving KL for the open land. He could have taken Balerion North and demanded that the Starks raise an army to crush his enemies. Or to the Vale, demanding a similar thing. Or basically any other place in the Seven Kingdoms. A dragon the size of Balerion is very effective weapon of terror. The way George describes it just Vhagar and Balerion motivated the Hightowers to murder the High Septon and disarm and arrest the Warrior's Sons. What do we think would have happened if Maegor and Balerion had flown to Gulltown, White Harbor, or Lannisport? The people there would have joined him or burned.

In that sense - do you think the man was murdered after all? If so, I think the Kingsguard acting in concert is the likeliest possibility. Four strong men should have been able to seize the man, and kill him by means of the Iron Throne. Elinor Costayne most likely wouldn't have had the strength to do that - unless Maegor fell asleep on the Iron Throne, or it was some sort of assisted suicide. If Maegor fell asleep somebody else sneaking in could also have done the deed. With a conscious and alert Maegor it shouldn't have worked without him being able to alert the Kingsguard or to fight off, injure, or kill at least one of the attackers - and from what we know there were no signs of a struggle or fight in the throne room.

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Trying to figure out what happened to the chapters of the Warrior's Sons:  in the four largest cities (not White Harbor) plus Stoney Sept:
 

  • King's Landing chapter - commanded by Damon Morrigen.  Wiped out by Maegor on Balerion.
  • Oldtown - commanded by Morgan Hightower.  Betrayed and arrested by the Hightowers, led by Ser Morgan.
  • Lannisport - commanded by Joffrey Doggett.  Major thorn in Maegor's side, made their new Grand Captain after Morrigen died.  Lived to the end of the uprising when the Tullys welcomed him to Riverrun.
  • Stoney Sept - contingent wiped out at the Battle of the Great Fork.
  • Gulltown -....Unknown. 

There was fighting in most regions of the south but no mention of the Vale....odd that.  Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Reach....well, we do have the Corbrays come TO the Riverlands....

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Poxy Jeyne Poore was one of the most interesting new characters in this - getting a strong Joan of Arc vibe from her.  Is "Poore" a noble House we haven't heard of before, or just a nickname etc?  Managed to hold off Maegor for a while, taking pressure off of Septon Moon and Ser Doggett.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, that seems to be another instance where there is some sort of converging issue. Some program seems to have had read 'm' as 'rn' there. That is an unlikely typo.

I hope so. There was another typo I saw with two successive plurals. 

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I hope so. There was another typo I saw with two successive plurals. 

I haven't received my print copy yet, but I did give it a listen to yesterday and there were many errors in that as well. They were distracting. 

In general, more beating over the head incest is bad, the love was not immediate by any means, and holy hells Visenya was really pushing the bow or burn agenda. She surpasses Mel with her twitchy fire trigger fingers. And more details on the many corruptions in Oldtown, which I liked. 

Gonna give it another listen while I wait for my book. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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21 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Sunfyre found Aegon II on his own, so perhaps a similar scenario occurred here with Quicksilver and Aegon?

Sunfyre was bonded to Aegon II, though, while Quicksilver was not. The idea that the father's dragon searches out the son all by herself is romantic and all, but somewhat far-fetched without any textual evidence.

Especially in light of the fact that Sunfyre's return to Dragonstone is described as a mysterious event, heavily debated by scholars. It is not clear whether the dragon sensed Aegon's turmoils - which he could have - or whether he simply made his way back home to the Dragonmount, the place where he apparently hatched.

10 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

stuff the browser doesn't want to break into pieces properly ;-)

The thing is that Maegor didn't have any champions at first. I'm fine with the eventual Trial of Seven and all but I'd have liked a reason why they thought this was the way to take back control. Especially in light of the fact that Maegor later just burns them anyway.

If avuncular marriages were considered incest then the Starks practiced incest, too, with those two confirmed avuncular marriages of theirs. And as I've quoted above, the High Septon objects to the Rhaena-Maegor match but he doesn't call it incest or abomination nor do George-Gyldayn include avuncular marriages in their earlier definition of incest.

I'm sure it was uncommon and most likely done only among the noble and royal families of the Seven Kingdoms - especially when there were too many heirs around - but we don't have any reason to believe it constitutes the type of incest that is condemned by the Faith. That seems to be parent-children and sibling incest only. I assume grandparents-grandchildren incest is also included, but avuncular marriages were not uncommon in medieval societies - and are also not targeted by most contemporary incest laws in our world.

As to the Quicksilver thing - see above. Without any confirmation that a riderless dragon just sought out the son of his dead rider hundreds of leagues away I don't believe that. And come to think of that - if Prince Viserys was dragonless - as seems to be the case since no dragon is mentioned for him - wouldn't he have claimed his father's dragon? He was there when Aenys I died. Aegon was not.

Rhaena certainly could have left her infant daughters with the Lannisters during the campaign. It is possible she had not yet recovered enough after the childbirth, like it was with Rhaenyra at the beginning of the Dance, but there seems to have passed a lot of time between the birth of the twins in late 42 AC, and Aegon's demise in late 43 AC (after the end of the Oldtown episode where Maegor spent half a year).

As to the Crakehall siege: Yes, if Dreamfyre was there - which seems to be the case, considering she is with her later in the Westerlands - the idea that they could be besieged is very odd.

And dragons must have been with them on the progress in any case. The whole point of those royal progresses was to show off the wealth, splendor, and power of the Targaryens. The dragons were a huge part of it. We learn that both from the descriptions of Aegon's progresses as well as Jaehaerys I's progresses (who took six dragons to Winterfell).

This makes it exceedingly unlikely that Rhaena did not take Dreamfyre with her on the progress. And again - the idea that the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne had no dragon of his own when there were 6-8 dragons from which he could have picked his mount - the same dragon Maegor all declined as well as the two that hatched shortly after Aenys had made Maegor his Hand - simply doesn't make any sense. If Aenys and Maegor were given/offered dragons so would have Aegon and Viserys - especially since Rhaena, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne all got dragons.

If Vermithor and Silverwing were even remotely large enough to be used in battle against Balerion in 48 AC as Lord Baratheon's talk indicates they must have been of considerable size in 44 AC. But the issue there is not only that they must have conveniently found a captain to transport them and the dragons but also that Tyanna apparently never found out where they went. How is that even remotely convincing? She found Aerea and Rhaella who were hidden in the Westerlands, hundreds of leagues away from KL, yet she was unable to found Alyssa, the children, and the dragons hiding in the Stormlands, essentially in Maegor's backyard? That doesn't make any sense. Sailors do talk, and there is no way that the captain could have hidden two dragons - whatever their size - from his men.

In that sense the escape of Alyssa and the children from Dragonstone would make much more sense if they all fled on dragonback. Then they could have hidden on some rocky island in Blackwater or Shipbreaker Bay, contacting Lord Baratheon by flying directly to Storm's End under the cover of darkness in the middle of a rainy day, or something of that sort. If they came from the sea side and entered the castle through the harbor Davos and Mel use in ACoK secrecy could have ensured convincingly, especially if Alyssa had reached out to Lord Baratheon previously in letters, etc.

We have to keep in mind that Jaehaerys was the greatest danger to Maegor after his escape. He would have put a lot of his resources on finding him.

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It's too bad we don't find out any more about what ultimately happened with Aerea and Rhaella.  I'm assuming Aerea was married off to one of the great houses.  Did Rhaella become a septa?  Was she too married off?  Considering they were the only children of Aerys' first born son, and Aerea was named heir at one point, you would think that this would be a pretty big deal.

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1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's too bad we don't find out any more about what ultimately happened with Aerea and Rhaella.  I'm assuming Aerea was married off to one of the great houses.  Did Rhaella become a septa?  Was she too married off?  Considering they were the only children of Aerys' first born son, and Aerea was named heir at one point, you would think that this would be a pretty big deal.

We should learn what happened to them in 'Fire and Blood'.

I think it is safe to say that Aerea is going to marry some person of relevance. It could still be that she turns out to be the mother of Corlys Velaryon. Lord Celtigar offered his 12-13-year-old girls to Maegor, so it would be unusual but not impossible.

Rhaella may have become a septa, although as I've said above somewhere it was Maegor's decision to send her to Oldtown and considering the fact that Rhaena was separated from her daughters for such a long time I'm very much inclined to believe she took her back in her care.

And thinking about Rhaena - it would not surprise me if she ended up marrying that Androw Farman she liked so much, resulting it perhaps some Farman dude trying to lay claim to the Iron Throne as one of those lesser claimants in 101 AC.

It is a pity that Dreamfyre survived to the Dance. If she hadn't Rhaena could have been the Targaryen I wanted to be in the history - the one who took his or her dragon across the Sunset Sea, never to return. Rhaena's life on Fair Isle could awoken such a desire of exploration and adventure in her.

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51 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Poxy Jeyne Poore was one of the most interesting new characters in this - getting a strong Joan of Arc vibe from her.  Is "Poore" a noble House we haven't heard of before, or just a nickname etc?  Managed to hold off Maegor for a while, taking pressure off of Septon Moon and Ser Doggett.

Yeah, I liked that one, too. Ran/Linda cut most of the women out of TWoIaF. It is the same with Tyanna who clearly seems to have been the most powerful queen in history, alongside Visenya, Rhaenys (while she was still alive), and Alysanne.

True, Yandel's voice is the one of a man raised in a very patriarchal environment, but I'd have preferred to get Poxy Jeyne name-dropped rather than Septon Moon and Doggett.

58 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Trying to figure out what happened to the chapters of the Warrior's Sons:  in the four largest cities (not White Harbor) plus Stoney Sept:
 

  • King's Landing chapter - commanded by Damon Morrigen.  Wiped out by Maegor on Balerion.
  • Oldtown - commanded by Morgan Hightower.  Betrayed and arrested by the Hightowers, led by Ser Morgan.
  • Lannisport - commanded by Joffrey Doggett.  Major thorn in Maegor's side, made their new Grand Captain after Morrigen died.  Lived to the end of the uprising when the Tullys welcomed him to Riverrun.
  • Stoney Sept - contingent wiped out at the Battle of the Great Fork.
  • Gulltown -....Unknown. 

There was fighting in most regions of the south but no mention of the Vale....odd that.  Riverlands, Westerlands, Stormlands, Reach....well, we do have the Corbrays come TO the Riverlands....

The more interesting thing is the question what happened to the remnants of the Faith Militant in the immediate aftermath of Maegor's demise. When last we hear of Septon Moon he was on his way to Oldtown to deal with the puppet High Septon there, and apparently had the support of the Rowans and Oakhearts in this. One wonders whether he did not actually become High Septon in the end?

And Joffrey Doggett struck an alliance with Lord Tully. I guess he was on the road to honorable retirement assuming he did not press the issue with Jaehaerys I and his government.

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I think it was Anne who decided to cut the Poxy Jeyne episode because it was colorful but a dead end, while men like Joffrey Doggett played a continuing role to the end of Maegor's reign. I agree with that call, FWIW, but we did have to get some 300k of material down to 180k and had to make some real choices in how to get there. 

Edited by Ran

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