Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

340 posts in this topic

10 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think it was Anne who decided to cut the Poxy Jeyne episode because it was colorful but a dead end, while men like Joffrey Doggett played a continuing role to the end of Maegor's reign.

From that point of view it makes some sense but the fact that Moon and Doggett were relevant isn't actually evident in TWoIaF ;-). Poxy Jeyne could have been weird anecdote.

Did George ever comment on the Quicksilver-Aegon conundrum and the dragons conundrum in general? Those things should be addressed and resolved in 'Fire and Blood' if possible.

In fact, TSotD could work much better if more details - especially details about sources conflicting sources and chroniclers, etc. - where added to make fit better with the later pieces. Maegor must be the most controversial figure in Westeros, with Visenya not that far behind. The must be as much slander to be found about these two than there is about Rhaenyra, Aegon II, or Aegon IV.

The last line seems to indicate George had the plan to have different maesters comment on the various kings when he was writing that.

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Is there anything about the Black Brides? We know something about Rhaena, but what about Elinor and Jeyne? How did they react to their forced marriages? How was the wedding; did they cry during it? How did Maegor treat them (and their children, if they were there)? Jeyne died, but does it say anything about Elinor and her whereabouts after Maegor's death?

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

From that point of view it makes some sense but the fact that Moon and Doggett were relevant isn't actually evident in TWoIaF ;-). Poxy Jeyne could have been weird anecdote.

Did George ever comment on the Quicksilver-Aegon conundrum and the dragons conundrum in general? Those things should be addressed and resolved in 'Fire and Blood' if possible.

In fact, TSotD could work much better if more details - especially details about sources conflicting sources and chroniclers, etc. - where added to make fit better with the later pieces. Maegor must be the most controversial figure in Westeros, with Visenya not that far behind. The must be as much slander to be found about these two than there is about Rhaenyra, Aegon II, or Aegon IV.

The last line seems to indicate George had the plan to have different maesters comment on the various kings when he was writing that.

Do we get anything on the two years Maegor served as Hand? Also, has anyone done a word count yet of TSOTD?

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Moon and Doggett lead forces which were among the many arrayed against Maegor, who become "slow and confused" in how to deal with them and whose forces were among his deliberations in the final night of his life. Maegor's section ends on the very page in which they are mentioned again. That's a lot more relevant to the end game of Maegor's reign than a woman who had been executed years earlier, it seems to me, but it seems mileage varies.

Edited by Ran

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2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Could you perhaps clarify which date for the High Septon's death and Maegor's threat to Oldtown is the correct one? 43 AC, as stated in Sons of the Dragon, or 44 AC, as stated in TWOIAF?

According to Sons, the uncle of Ceryse died in 43 AC and his successor (Septon Pater) one year later. So maybe some change of wording to the Woldbook would solve the issue.

Did I miss something or did Maegor name his first hand just in 43 AC?

Edited by The Wondering Wolf

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43 is correct. We had it right in one of the drafts when we started putting it all together, I see, but got a bit carried away when cutting further and ended up slipping the death in at the wrong date. Will make a note to Random House for future editions.

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On 10-10-2017 at 3:43 AM, Lord Varys said:

We can also safely say that it is wrong that Vermithor is the oldest Targaryen dragon after Balerion and Vhagar by the time of the Dance. Dreamfyre must be older if she was already ridden - not claimed, ridden - by Rhaena at the age of twelve.

 

Got my copy today :D

Vermitor is called "A great bronze and tan beast" so apparantly he was already quite big, therefore i am not sure you are correct in your assumption.

Altough one has to wonder how Vermitor was kept hidden if he was big, al i can think of is the cavern under Storms End that Davos rowed mellisandre to and that apparantly was big enough to house a ship since its where Davos brought his ship into when he brought supplies during the siege in RB.

I think both Dreanfyre and Vermitor are probably from amongst the six hatchlings that where at one point offered as possible dragons to Maegor, and are thus probably of comparible age.

Edited by direpupy

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2 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Is there anything about the Black Brides? We know something about Rhaena, but what about Elinor and Jeyne? How did they react to their forced marriages? How was the wedding; did they cry during it? How did Maegor treat them (and their children, if they were there)? Jeyne died, but does it say anything about Elinor and her whereabouts after Maegor's death?

There is some speculation about the first night. Did they all sleep in one bed? Did Rhaena try to murder Maegor with a knife hidden under her pillow as she later claimed? Did Elinor Costayne claw Maegor's back bloody while they had sex? That kind of thing. 

We get their background in detail. Elinor - Maegor's last queen - is the one who finds his corpse on the Iron Throne and one of the suspects behind his death (her motive would have been revenge for her murdered first husband, Theo Bolling - Maegor essentially made that accusation up out of thin air to get rid of him).

People expected Rhaena to resist the whole marriage thing but she just wept and went along with it when Tyanna brought in Aerea and Rhaella in Targaryen colors.

Jeyne Westerling's son - born after the death of her Tarbeck husband - was confirmed as the Lord of Tarbeck by Maegor. Elinor's three children were sent away as wards to various great houses and the youngest one was given to a wetnurse. While the women were pregnant Maegor threw honors and offices on their relations.

2 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Do we get anything on the two years Maegor served as Hand? Also, has anyone done a word count yet of TSOTD?

Nope. But that was clear all along. George did read that section of TSotD already. All we know is that Aenys and Maegor ruled the Realm amicably for the better part of two years - late 37-39 AC.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Moon and Doggett lead forces which were among the many arrayed against Maegor, who become "slow and confused" in how to deal with them and whose forces were among his deliberations in the final night of his life. Maegor's section ends on the very page in which they are mentioned again. That's a lot more relevant to the end game of Maegor's reign than a woman who had been executed years earlier, it seems to me, but it seems mileage varies.

Oh, I did not doubt that Moon and Doggett were more important to the history of the Seven Kingdoms. It is just that due to the cuts to the material they do not come off as important in TWoIaF. It was just namedropping. We didn't know who those guys were, nor that they were important. I remember citing them occasionally as hints that the Faith Militant was also involved in the toppling of Maegor but the context in TWoIaF doesn't even indicate that Doggett was the leader of the Warrior's Sons or Moon a longtime opponent of Maegor's.

My idea there was just that Poxy Jeyne could have made a funny anecdote in a sentence in brackets, or something of that sort.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Did I miss something or did Maegor name his first hand just in 43 AC?

That seems to be the case. One assumes he had more important things to do. Not to mention that the Hand wasn't all that powerful or important an office at that time - just a dude the king had to do some of the stuff he didn't want to concern himself with. That's what hands are for in the colloquial sense, aren't they?

The first truly powerful Hand seems to have been Septon Barth. He made the office into the powerful viceroy office as we know it. I guess the Baratheon Hand and Protector would already have been pretty powerful, but Alyssa was the regent and Jaehaerys I most likely no puppet.

But during Aegon's days Rhaenys and Visenya were the co-rulers of the king, and Maegor's authority as Hand would have come from being Aenys' brother, etc. not so much from the office he had.

Orys Baratheon would have had the ear of the king due to their friendship, but Edmyn Tully, Osmund Strong, Alyn Stokeworth wouldn't have been even remotely as influential or powerful as their successors. And during Maegor's reign Visenya and Tyanna clearly had much more power than any Hand could ever hope for.

It seems to be Viserys I who gives the office of the Hand its finishing touches, allowing Otto Hightower to rule the Seven Kingdoms in his stead until such a time as a new king is crowned. It might even be that Otto and Lyonel Strong were the first Hands who actually sat the Iron Throne. I'm not sure Barth would have presumed to do that, although I'd not be surprised if he was also allowed to speak with the King's Voice.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that the Hand wasn't all that powerful or important an office at that time - just a dude the king had to do some of the stuff he didn't want to concern himself with.

Yes, that seems to be true, and apparently it is the same with the whole Small Council (although if I remember correctly the Small Councils prior to Jaehaerys I were not really formal, anyway). Nonetheless I was a little bit disappointed about the lack of council members despite Alton Butterwell and Daemon Velaryon (and we already knew his name from the Worldbook), there was not even mention of Maegor's lord commander.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Well that sucks. I was really hoping we would get a glimpse of how Maegor wasn't a complete disaster as Hand of the King. Not to mention 37-39 AC would be perfect for a small-scale Dornish War as I have been saying for who knows how long. Ugh. Do we at least get Maegor's eulogy or Alyssa's dirge?

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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49 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Got my copy today :D

Vermitor is called "A great bronze and tan beast" so apparantly he was already quite big, therefore i am not sure you are correct in your assumption.

The sentence this conundrum is about is this one from TWoIaF:

Quote

In battle he [Hugh] rode Vermithor, once the mount of the Old King himself; of all the dragons in Westeros, only Vhagar was older or larger.

and this one from TWoIaF:

Quote

He was a dragonrider as well, riding upon Vermithor—a great beast of bronze and tan who was the largest of the living dragons after Balerion and Vhagar.

Size isn't the important issue - Dreamfyre could very well have been older than Vermithor and still somewhat smaller, just Vhagar seems to have grown older than Meraxes while being smaller than her upon her own death in 130 AC - but age is.

The statement from TPatQ indicates that Vermithor would also be older and larger than the Cannibal, something that doesn't seem to be all that likely considering the stuff that's reported about the Cannibal. And even Sheepstealer - who hatched when the Old King was still young - could be about as old as Vermithor.

49 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Altough one has to wonder how Vermitor was kept hidden if he was big, al i can think of is the cavern under Storms End that Davos rowed mellisandre to and that apparantly was big enough to house a ship since its where Davos brought his ship into when he brought supplies during the siege in RB.

As I ramble on somewhere above - Jaehaerys and Alysanne hiding with their dragons in the Stormlands (or at Storm's End) needs a very good explanation. If Rhaena concludes in the very same story that the attempt to hide with a dragon is hopeless then there is no way that Alyssa Velaryon could have hidden with her children and two dragons in Maegor's backyard.

And neither is it convincing that they got from Dragonstone to their hiding place by ship. No sailor would have kept quiet if he had served on a ship that transported two living dragons.

49 minutes ago, direpupy said:

I think both Dreanfyre and Vermitor are probably from amongst the six hatchlings that where at one point offered as possible dragons to Maegor, and are thus probably of comparible age.

Dreamfyre most definitely must be one of those six hatchlings. Rhaena would have been twelve years old in 35 AC, two years before the Conqueror's death. And we know that she was a dragonrider at the age of twelve. Usually the Targaryens get and bond with their dragons at an earlier age.

But it could also be that Vermithor and Silverwing are those two dragons that hatched on Dragonstone in 37 AC, after Aenys made Maegor his Hand. Jaehaerys was three years old, and Alysanne only one - that seems to be an age Targaryen children can begin to bond with their dragons. Aenys also was given his Quicksilver at a very early age.

32 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yes, that seems to be true, and apparently it is the same with the whole Small Council (although if I remember correctly the Small Councils prior to Jaehaerys I were not really formal, anyway). Nonetheless I was a little bit disappointed about the lack of council members despite Alton Butterwell and Daemon Velaryon (and we already knew his name from the Worldbook), there was not even mention of Maegor's lord commander.

From what we know there wasn't even a Small Council during the reigns of the first three Targaryen kings. It also seems that Queen Tyanna was the first Mistress of Whisperers, a title and office that did not really exist under the previous kings. The offices Aegon hands to his earliest followers during the Conquest do not include a Master of Whisperers.

Maegor's Master of Laws could have been an interesting fellow. One imagines a bloodthirsty person, always intend to invent new forms of capital punishment.

I'd not be surprised if this awful Owen Bush fellow was Maegor's Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

37 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Well that sucks. I was really hoping we would get a glimpse of how Maegor wasn't a complete disaster as Hand of the King. Not to mention 37-39 AC would be perfect for a small-scale Dornish War as I have been saying for who knows how long. Ugh. Do we at least get Maegor's eulogy or Alyssa's dirge?

In text? No. But I guess Maegor spoke slowly, using only matrix sentences.

I told you I don't know how often that the reading had made it pretty clear that those two years are not covered by TSotD. You can ask George to add more stuff to 'Fire and Blood', of course.

I think we can count the Vulture King thing as a Second Dornish War. It was no attempt to conquer Dorne but still a rather bloody albeit unofficial war with Dorne.

There is a hint as to what the Third Dornish War could have been - when Maegor's power crumbles there is talk about the Dornishmen assembling in the mountains to invade the Reach and the Stormlands. If that actually happens shortly after Jaehaerys I's coronation - or even while he was crowned - then we can expect the Baratheon Hand and Protector to really retaliate there. And in the wake of that they could make another attempt to subdue Dorne.

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11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

Here's hoping that F & B V1 will have those details then seeing as I have no way of communicating with, much less influencing, GRRM.

My apologies if I have gotten on your nerves btw Lord Varys.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Here's hoping that F & B V1 will have those details then seeing as I have no way of communicating with, much less influencing, GRRM.

Me neither ;-).

3 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

My apologies if I have gotten on your nerves btw Lord Varys.

You didn't. I just wanted to point out that there was really no reason to hope for stuff like that.

I myself am pissed about what I call the Aegon-Quicksilver conundrum as well as the lack of dragons for Aegon, Viserys, and Alyssa when they were clearly more than enough dragons around.

And just to make it clear - I'd really like to get more details on the amicable Aenys-Maegor reign. That would have been an interesting part of their lives. The fact that Maegor did get along with his brother all that time indicates that he wasn't really completely rotten, at least not at that time.

The other small redeeming trait he had was that Tyanna really had to convince him that Alys had betrayed him. That indicates he really loved her. And perhaps he even loved Ceryse. Who knows? It would be interesting if it was calculation or real emotion what caused him to rekindle their relationship. Most likely the former, to have a Hightower hostage, but still...

What's your take on Ceryse's death? Do you buy the rumor? With Maegor it is really difficult to say.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Text

I won't be able to get my hands on a copy of BoS till tomorrow but based off TWOIAF poison or sickness are equally possible, part of the problem being that the idea of "slander" as presented in TSOTD is heavily undercut by certain decisions GRRM made.

For example, why is it likely slander that Maegor butchered a cat at the age of three when apparently it is a known fact that he slaughtered a horse when he was eight and then cut off half the face of the stableboy?

Honestly, TSOTD is an unedited mess in that regard from what I've heard, which is pretty damning considering that Gardner surely had time to fact-check and cross-reference the text seeing as GRRM handed him a complete draft from the get-go.

I guess the best we can hope for is that Ran/Linda point out these issues and possibilities to him during the editorial process for Fire & Blood: Volume 1.

Speaking of Fire & Blood: Is it possible that Fire & Blood Volume 1 could feature artwork similar to TWOIAF @Ran?

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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I'm sure there'll be art of some sort. Maybe a mix of pieces from TWoIaF and new ones.

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43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The sentence this conundrum is about is this one from TWoIaF:

and this one from TWoIaF:

Size isn't the important issue - Dreamfyre could very well have been older than Vermithor and still somewhat smaller, just Vhagar seems to have grown older than Meraxes while being smaller than her upon her own death in 130 AC - but age is.

The statement from TPatQ indicates that Vermithor would also be older and larger than the Cannibal, something that doesn't seem to be all that likely considering the stuff that's reported about the Cannibal. And even Sheepstealer - who hatched when the Old King was still young - could be about as old as Vermithor.

Dreamfyre most definitely must be one of those six hatchlings. Rhaena would have been twelve years old in 35 AC, two years before the Conqueror's death. And we know that she was a dragonrider at the age of twelve. Usually the Targaryens get and bond with their dragons at an earlier age.

But it could also be that Vermithor and Silverwing are those two dragons that hatched on Dragonstone in 37 AC, after Aenys made Maegor his Hand. Jaehaerys was three years old, and Alysanne only one - that seems to be an age Targaryen children can begin to bond with their dragons. Aenys also was given his Quicksilver at a very early age.

 

So did some looking into this and in 130 AC Vermithor is said to be almost a 100 years old meaning he was born at the earliest in 31 AC and and probably no latter then 35 AC. So he is probably not one of 37AC dragons.

As to Sheepstealer "born when  they old king was young" well that means he was born at they earliest in 34 AC the birth-year of the old king, but probably a little later and thus younger then Vermithor.

The Cannibal wel that is more difficult to say he is called they eldest of the wild dragons so he is older then Sheepstealer but wheter that is 1 or 10 years we simply do not know. So yes he may be of similar age to Vermithor.

Vermithor being they oldest is still possible, but between Dreamfyre and Cannibal probably being at least of a similar age and possibly older not the certainty whe once thought it was.

But hey for al we know its one of those things where Yandel's comments in tWoIaF is simply bullshit after all he is our only source for Vermithor being they oldest.

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4 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Is there anything about the Black Brides? We know something about Rhaena, but what about Elinor and Jeyne? How did they react to their forced marriages? How was the wedding; did they cry during it? How did Maegor treat them (and their children, if they were there)? Jeyne died, but does it say anything about Elinor and her whereabouts after Maegor's death?

Yeah there's a lot on all that specifically.

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39 minutes ago, direpupy said:

So did some looking into this and in 130 AC Vermithor is said to be almost a 100 years old meaning he was born at the earliest in 31 AC and and probably no latter then 35 AC. So he is probably not one of 37AC dragons.

I don't think you can rule it out on that basis.  He'd be "almost a hundred years old" if he was 92; it's a sufficiently imprecise phrase.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If avuncular marriages were considered incest then the Starks practiced incest, too, with those two confirmed avuncular marriages of theirs. And as I've quoted above, the High Septon objects to the Rhaena-Maegor match but he doesn't call it incest or abomination nor do George-Gyldayn include avuncular marriages in their earlier definition of incest.

I checked the trees but can't find what you're talking about; specifically which Starks are you referring to?

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2 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I checked the trees but can't find what you're talking about; specifically which Starks are you referring to?

Sansa and Serena Stark if I'm not mistaken. Also, it should be mentioned that the Starks don't follow the Faith of the Seven so they wouldn't care if the High Septon decreed uncle/aunt-niece/nephew marriages to be incest.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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