Lord Varys

The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

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This is part of Gyldayn's account of Targaryen history.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

This is part of Gyldayn's account of Targaryen history.

Thank you

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I bring it up cause POV seems always important in thinking about what we're being told.

One thing off hand pointed out i saw in here was Rhaenys and her body after Dorne. I noticed a huge section missing here too. With the last thing i recall being that Aegon had received some mysterious letter from Dorne that halted Aegon. With nothing more being said.

Then we're told that House Dayne apparently wanted a marriage with Maegor to break away from Dorne, which i found to be quite interesting. Makes me wonder how into Dornish customs House Dayne even is. Let alone political ties they would pursue else where to make this split with Dorne happen. Like why not side with House Hightower and the Gardener Kings?

Glydayn's name is interesting too as Dayn is part of his name. Danye? Always an interesting idea on Maesters allegiances, what houses they originally came from, and such. 

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7 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Then we're told that House Dayne apparently wanted a marriage with Maegor to break away from Dorne, which i found to be quite interesting.

I think it was rather Grand Maester Benifer's idea, not the one of the Daynes. Although one has to wonder why he thought that would be an option in the first place.

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Glydayn's name is interesting too as Dayn is part of his name. Danye?

Gyldayn Dayne? I do not hope so...

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21 minutes ago, Ran said:

This is part of Gyldayn's account of Targaryen history.

How long do i have to wait to discuss some of this in prior threads of mine? Or do i just cover things under spoiler with a note above saying that it's from this book?

There was an interesting section about Aegon offering Maegor one of half a dozen dragon's hatched in the fires of Dragonstone and a section about two hatching from a brazier that are interesting points to bring up when discussing how Dany hatched hers. 

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We generally go with one month for spoiler protection purposes.

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The last seven years of the reign of Aegon the Conqueror were peaceful ones. After the frustrations of his Dornish War the king accepted the continued independence of Dorne, and flew to Sunspear on Balerion on the tenth anniversary of the peace accords to celebrate a “feast of friendship” with Deria Martell, the reigning Princess of Dorne.

Did the First Dornish War not end in 13 AC? So the tenth anniversary would take place in 23 AC. 

 

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2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think it was rather Grand Maester Benifer's idea, not the one of the Daynes. Although one has to wonder why he thought that would be an option in the first place.

Gyldayn Dayne? I do not hope so...

Reread it real fast. I see it was his idea to wed her, but what does detaching their House from Dorne accomplish though? Is House Dayne more important than we know? Why would House Dayne have interest in detaching from Dorne? To what end? 

Well he could've simply been a bastard. Gyldayn Sand. Hence joing the maesters as he would inherit nothing, kinda like Walys. Just an idea. 

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Alysanne proved very fertile. If she hadn't been, perhaps Jaehaerys would have opted to undo the marriage, or take a second bride, but probably not -- they were very much in love. Had Alysanne been barren, I'm going to guess Jaehaerys would have ended up having the offspring of one of the female Targaryens groomed as successor, if not the female Targaryens themselves. I suspect the speculation that Rhaena married a Farman is both  an explanation for why Jaehaerys did not marry her himself and an avenue for his having had some kin.

Sure, if Jaehaerys and Alysanne were already very much in love in 48 AC, and if Rhaena had no inclination to marry her little brother then this could explain why Jaehaerys did not also marry her. It would make a pretty good explanation, actually. But it wouldn't really explain why polygamy fell out of practice.

The point I'm trying to make that this 'mimic the Conqueror' idea must have been entertained in 48 AC, at least by some people.

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

Given how easily people are suggesting Daenerys take up polygamous marriages, I think it's fairly asinine to assume that no one ever _suggested_ it in the past; a lack of examples doesn't mean it was not, at some point, mooted. Daemon Blackfyre may have well believed his father would have supported his marrying Daenerys when he already had a wife, after all. 

But that is really a very obscure and weird example. Are we really willing to believe that Aegon IV indulged his thirteenish bastard son - who wasn't legitimized at the time - in the fantasy of taking his half-sister - then still 11-12 - to take a trueborn Targaryen princess as a second wife? Why should this man grant his bastard son a privilege he never granted himself? Aegon never struck we as the compassionate type...

And why would Aegon arrange a marriage with the Tyroshi woman if he at the same time indulged his son's fantasy to marry his half-sister? That is pretty inconsistent behavior. Daemon would have to be pretty stupid to buy that shit. If I told my father I wanted to marry my half-sister and he sort of agreed or pretended to agree while at the same time convincing me that I have to marry this other woman first something doesn't really add up.

Were Daemon and Daenerys even in love at that time? The story of their romance seem to be connected to the reign of Daeron II - with the announcement of the Martell marriage being a real blow to the Daeron-Daemon relationship - rather than to their childhood during the reign of Aegon.

Daemon and Daenerys might not even have spent much time together before Aegon finally acknowledged Daemon as his son in 182 AC. Daenerys was a royal princess and Daemon just the bastard of Princess Daena at that time. They would have been raised in different households, presumably.

And even the Daemon-Daenerys romance is sort of weird considering that Daemon married Rohanne in 184 AC and had twins with her in the same year. Sure, Daemon was this super man and all, but the idea that a royal princess was overly keen to be with/marry a man who had constantly sex with his Tyroshi wife is somewhat of a stretch.

Still, the romance could work if Rohanne left court for a time after the birth of the twins or Calla to visit her family in Tyrosh or something of that sort, and Daemon remained in KL. There is this curious age gap between the twins and Daemon II that would allow for such a temporary separation.

But be that as it may - the problem isn't really the Blackfyre thing, it is that people apparently never considered or practiced polygamy who would have a vested interest to do so. That is not easily brushed aside. We would all want to know why those people chose not to practice it. If Viserys I, Daemon, Rhaenyra, etc. would give us the reason why they feel they could not take another spouse all would be fine. But them apparently not even thinking about such an option makes them - and all their advisers - all look stupid.

14 minutes ago, Ran said:

But it never happened, doubtless because in all the scenarios presented there are perfectly sound reasons for why polygamy wasn't something anyone leapt to. It fell out of favor with the Targaryens for the reasons already stated, whereas to some degree incest did not, and so it just wasn't something anyone chose as a solution within the scope of the reigns from Jaehaerys I to Aerys II.... well, with the one speculated by some for Rhaegar.

And when exactly would you say it fell out of favor? During the reign of Jaehaerys I, most likely, right? But that's just two generations of marriages. I'm not sure why or how we could say Viserys I, Daemon, Rhaenyra, etc. wouldn't have considered polygamy or considered it to have fallen out of favor. Just because their grandparents and parents lived monogamous? Maegor the Cruel was Viserys I's great-granduncle. And the Conqueror was his great-great-grandfather. That is not the distant past. And the memory of the Conqueror and his sister-wives was kept alive continuously.

If Jaehaerys I - or anyone - didn't ever send the message that this is not something we should continue to do then it is very hard to believe that a man like Daemon - who basically had the same ego as Maegor - wouldn't have considered to go down that route.

To be clear - your rationalizations are basically the same I use, too, to make sense of that. But what I actually want is some sort of in-universe official explanation or speculation.

Gyldayn certainly could discuss Targaryen polygamy at some point in the story, offering various explanation as to why Maegor the Cruel was the last Targaryen king to have more than one wife at the same time. Surely that is a question that would interest many of the people in the Seven Kingdoms, too ;-).

And jumping to something else:

The fact that Tyanna - a bastard with a very checkered past - rose to be effectively a ruling queen really sends home the message that the loss of the dragons meant a loss of power. Maegor could effectively make a whore his queen. But Prince Duncan could not make his Jenny the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Things really got much more formal and orderly in the later years.

The amount of power Tyanna had - not just as Mistress of Whisperers but also as queen - really came as a surprise to me.

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12 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The last seven years of the reign of Aegon the Conqueror were peaceful ones. After the frustrations of his Dornish War the king accepted the continued independence of Dorne, and flew to Sunspear on Balerion on the tenth anniversary of the peace accords to celebrate a “feast of friendship” with Deria Martell, the reigning Princess of Dorne.

Did the First Dornish War not end in 13 AC? So the tenth anniversary would take place in 23 AC. 

That seems to be an error there. It would have been the twentieth anniversary, taking place in the year 33 AC. That way it would also figure into the mentioned 'last seven years of Aegon the Conqueror'. The idea that the author is suddenly making an unmotivated reference back to the early 20s doesn't seem very plausible.

21 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

How long do i have to wait to discuss some of this in prior threads of mine? Or do i just cover things under spoiler with a note above saying that it's from this book?

There was an interesting section about Aegon offering Maegor one of half a dozen dragon's hatched in the fires of Dragonstone and a section about two hatching from a brazier that are interesting points to bring up when discussing how Dany hatched hers. 

There is nothing in there about two dragons being hatched from a brazier. But I think you can actually discuss those half a dozen dragons who hatched in the later years of Aegon's reign as well as the two who hatched in 37 AC because that was long ago covered by the reports. Still, I'm no authority on anything so you better double-check before posting stuff.

25 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I think it was rather Grand Maester Benifer's idea, not the one of the Daynes. Although one has to wonder why he thought that would be an option in the first place.

Yeah, the idea was to use this Clarisse Dayne to separate a huge chunk of Dorne from Sunspear and lay thus the groundwork for a successful conquest of Dorne. The Daynes originally controlled one of the larger Dornish kingdoms. And there must be some passes to the Reach in the parts of the mountains the Daynes control. If the Daynes stood with the Targaryens invading Dorne could be much, much easier.

One really wonders whether a similar idea was later actually pursued. If Rhaella didn't become a septa they could actually have married her to the son of this Clarisse Dayne, resulting in a Dayne showing up at the Great Council to lay to the Iron Throne. Not to mention that such a marriage could actually help restore peace after a speculative Third Dornish War early on in Jaehaerys' reign.

Jaehaerys I was really popular in Dorne by the time of his death, and if his niece and grandniece and grandnephew were actually living there it  certainly could have helped establishing good relations and atmosphere and trust and understanding. The idea that Rhaenyra could wed the Prince of Dorne to bring Dorne into the Realm wouldn't have come up if Sunspear and the Iron Throne were on really bad terms at the time.

As to Gyldayn:

One hopes the young Gyldayn shows up in some of the Dunk & Egg stories. He could be forging his chain alongside Aemon. Or he could be a couple of years older.

Considering his subject matter and the trust Aegon V showed him, making the maester of Summerhall, I'd not be surprised if he was a Targaryen relation. A son of one of Bloodraven's sisters, perhaps? One of the younger sons of Lord Viserys Plumm? A bastard of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar? A lowborn bastard of Aegon the Unworthy? A Velaryon descendant of Baela and Alyn?

Could also be that he is just some guy without an interesting background but his name really sounds sort of Valyrian.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be an error there. It would have been the twentieth anniversary, taking place in the year 33 AC. That way it would also figure into the mentioned 'last seven years of Aegon the Conqueror'. The idea that the author is suddenly making an unmotivated reference back to the early 20s doesn't seem very plausible.

There is nothing in there about two dragons being hatched from a brazier. But I think you can actually discuss those half a dozen dragons who hatched in the later years of Aegon's reign as well as the two who hatched in 37 AC because that was long ago covered by the reports. Still, I'm no authority on anything so you better double-check before posting stuff.

Yeah, the idea was to use this Clarisse Dayne to separate a huge chunk of Dorne from Sunspear and lay thus the groundwork for a successful conquest of Dorne. The Daynes originally controlled one of the larger Dornish kingdoms. And there must be some passes to the Reach in the parts of the mountains the Daynes control. If the Daynes stood with the Targaryens invading Dorne could be much, much easier.

One really wonders whether a similar idea was later actually pursued. If Rhaella didn't become a septa they could actually have married her to the son of this Clarisse Dayne, resulting in a Dayne showing up at the Great Council to lay to the Iron Throne. Not to mention that such a marriage could actually help restore peace after a speculative Third Dornish War early on in Jaehaerys' reign.

Jaehaerys I was really popular in Dorne by the time of his death, and if his niece and grandniece and grandnephew were actually living there it  certainly could have helped establishing good relations and atmosphere and trust and understanding. The idea that Rhaenyra could wed the Prince of Dorne to bring Dorne into the Realm wouldn't have come up if Sunspear and the Iron Throne were on really bad terms at the time.

As to Gyldayn:

One hopes the young Gyldayn shows up in some of the Dunk & Egg stories. He could be forging his chain alongside Aemon. Or he could be a couple of years older.

Considering his subject matter and the trust Aegon V showed him, making the maester of Summerhall, I'd not be surprised if he was a Targaryen relation. A son of one of Bloodraven's sisters, perhaps? One of the younger sons of Lord Viserys Plumm? A bastard of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar? A lowborn bastard of Aegon the Unworthy? A Velaryon descendant of Baela and Alyn?

Could also be that he is just some guy without an interesting background but his name really sounds sort of Valyrian.

Hmm, ill have to double check but i thought those two it was said were hatched in a brazier. Which i thought funny cause Dany's didn't. 

Could be that he is no one, fer sure. I doubt Valyrian based on his name though. I though about doing a thread on this but never did. In Dayne and Glydayn. Ay is used to make the long A sound, or heavy stressed E. Depends how you wanna look at phonetics. 

Targaryens and Valyrians seem to use Ae to show this sound as in the case of Daenerys, Aegon, and Maegor. 

When discussing Eye Color, i recall reading Martin saying that people would have better luck looking to names than eye colors. 

Peter Baelish for instance has a Valyrian sounding and spelled name. Daeryssa saved by Serwyn, sounds Valyrian. Ive just never pursued this further or check to see if any one else has. 

Lannister, Martin list as a Andal name, even though they date back to the first men, and Lann being an Andal conflict with the known time line. 

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Maybe first quarrel of jaehaerys and alysanne was that J wanted to marry rhaena as second wife and took Aerea as step daughter and maybe future daughter in law to strengthen his claim. but alysanne got angry and said no.

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2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Maybe first quarrel of jaehaerys and alysanne was that J wanted to marry rhaena as second wife and took Aerea as step daughter and maybe future daughter in law to strengthen his claim. but alysanne got angry and said no.

Jaehaerys is the guy i want to learn more about!!! Alysanne and him seem the most interesting. Septon Barth, visits to Winterfell and the Wall. Jaehaerys seeking Septon Barth in the matters of Dragon lore and Targaryen/Valyrian history and magic is very fascinating specially given Barth's "Septon" status.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Marinating on what you said about House Dayne. I definitely see what your saying. Just giving thought to House Dayne now over all the years and especially surrounding current events. 

Im a believer that the Dayne Heir(ess) is Daenerys, and that Ashara may have been a paramour of Rhaegar Targaryen's. 

I never really thought of House Dayne as an active player in the Game of Thrones though, or very politically savy beyond affairs of their own lands. Aside from a marriage to Maekar, we hadn't till now heard much about them and the Royal Crown. 

Gives more food for thought on House Daynes actions and motives at the time. 

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23 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I have the nook version and the hard cover. It's in both. 

In that case, yikes to the proofreading. :/

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Aegon had made the Seven Kingdoms one with fire and blood, but after celebrating his sixtieth name day in 33 AC

Since there is no year 0, Aegon became 59 in 33 AC. That kind of error occured in the Worldbook as well.

 

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2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Aegon had made the Seven Kingdoms one with fire and blood, but after celebrating his sixtieth name day in 33 AC

Since there is no year 0, Aegon became 59 in 33 AC. That kind of error occured in the Worldbook as well.

 

Isn't there debate about that due to when you actually count his conquest and the year associated to it? Some count and start from when he landed, while others count when he was coronated. So when we speak of the year 300 Ac. It may actually be 298 or up to 302Ac in actuality. Or am i misunderstanding this. 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

We generally go with one month for spoiler protection purposes.

When Maegor and Aenys are making processions through their kingdom, do they visit the North? Does Aegon for that matter? Or is Jaehaerys and Alysanne still the only two known Targaryens to visit the North proper?

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It is a little bit different. The point of confusion is that some people think the calendar starts with Aegon's Landing, but actually it starts with his coronation in Oldtown two years later. As a maester you know that kind of stuff, but even if you get it wrong, Aegon becoming 60 in 33 AC just does not work.

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Well, I've listened to it 3.5 times.    Doesn't anyone else think Maegor wasn't Aegon's offspring?   He and Aenys are dissimilar in appearance.    Temperament can be explained by the ways they were raised, but geeeeeeez.    Aegon was early 30's when he launched the Conquest.   He was married to both sisters at that time.   We aren't told how old Visenya was, but she was sure well...maybe they had angry love for each other?    So Westeros is Conquered and Rhaenys is gone, lost or dead, but she's already got a 5 year-old by the time Visenya conceives.  It took Aegon more than 5 years to impregnate this woman he's been married to for what 8 or 10 years?   Of all those babies Maegor sired I'm only convinced 1 was his--the little guy with the wings and that's only because I can't explain it elsewise.   Maybe it's the other way around and Aegon didn't father Rhaenys' boy, but I'm thinking all this failure to impregnate is either a male Targ thing or oneof these boys is not really a Targ.   

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