Wow, I never noticed that v.16

[Lost Melnibonean]

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When Joffrey turned to look out over the hall, his eye caught Sansa's. He smiled, seated himself, and spoke. "It is a king's duty to punish the disloyal and reward those who are true. Grand Maester Pycelle, I command you to read my decrees."

Pycelle pushed himself to his feet. He was clad in a magnificent robe of thick red velvet, with an ermine collar and shiny gold fastenings. From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.

The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thorosof Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord HosterTully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karl Vance. Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Sheila Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these commands.

And at the end, near last, came the names Sansahad been dreading. Lady Catelyn Stark. Robb Stark. Brandon Stark, Rickon Stark, Arya Stark. Sansa stifled a gasp. Arya. They wanted Arya to present herself and swear an oath . . . it must mean her sister had fled on the galley, she must be safe at Winterfell by now . . .

Grand Maester Pycelle rolled up the list, tucked it up his left sleeve, and pulled another parchment from his right. He cleared his throat and resumed. "In the place of the traitor Eddard Stark, it is the wish of His Grace that Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, take up the office of Hand of the King, to speak with his voice, lead his armies against his enemies, and carry out his royal will. So the king has decreed. The small council consents.

"In the place of the traitor Stannis Baratheon, it is the wish of His Grace that his lady mother, the Queen Regent Cersei Lannister, who has ever been his staunchest support, be seated upon his small council, that she may help him rule wisely and with justice. So the king has decreed. The small council consents."

Sansa heard a soft murmuring from the lords around her, but it was quickly stilled. Pycellecontinued.

"It is also the wish of His Grace that his loyal servant, Janos Slynt, Commander of the City Watch of King's Landing, be at once raised to the rank of lord and granted the ancient seat ofHarrenhal with all its attendant lands and incomes, and that his sons and grandsons shall hold these honors after him until the end of time. It is moreover his command that Lord Slynt be seated immediately upon his small council, to as**sist in the governance of the realm. So the king has decreed. The small council consents."

Sansa V, Game 57

So, it seems that Stannis was already adjudged to be a traitor, since he was called such in the royal decree, and since Cersei was given Stannis’s seat on the Small Council; but apparently, Renly was not as yet, since he was not labeled a traitor, and since a new seat on the Small Council was created for Janos, rather than giving him Renly’sseat. Notice that the lords of each of the eight great houses of Westeros were summoned to King’s Landing by threat except for TywinLannister, which was understandable since he had just been named Hand, and Balon Greyjoy.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

"All the more reason to take King's Landing as soon as we may. Salladhor Saan told me --"
"Salladhor Saan thinks only of gold!" Stannis exploded. "His head is full of dreams of the treasure he fancies lies under the Red Keep, so let us hear no more of Salladhor Saan. The day I need military counsel from a Lysene brigand is the day I put off my crown and take the black." (Davos II, Clash 42)

So two things;

The first is Salla who seems to think there is treasure under the Red Keep, and I really got to wonder if there isn't some truth to this. Robert didn't get rid of the dragon skulls, and Ned tells us in AGOT 20 that there were smpty suits of armor along the walls that were from the time of the Targaryens. So I got to wonder if there really isn't something of value in the Red Keep. 

And then there's this Stannis comment about taking the black. Stannis is in the north. If he survived the battle at the cofters' village and the battle at Winterfell, I wonder if this won't become an option for him. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Varys explaining to Tyrion how he was cut and what happened to him has me wondering. This dialogue happens after Varys tells Tyrion how Cortnay Penrose died and if he believes in the old powers.

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"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead." (Tyrion X, Clash 44)

Could this be the reason Varys undermined Rhaegar? I never really understood why Varys who constantly says he works for the realm would work against someone who is well loved and might be able to right the ship. At first, I thought that maybe it had to do with this possible Blackfyre conspiracy, but that would take years to happen, years in which anything could happen. When Tywin arrived at the gates of King's Landing, he counsels Aerys to keep the gates closed. If Varys was plotting the downfall of House Targaryen, that's no skin off his nose. He can don a disguise and leave through one of the tunnels and take a ship back to Pentos.

But if Rhaegar is looking into magic (and prophecy is steeped in magic), then perhaps Varys decided that Rhaegar should be kept far away from the throne. I'm not sure it's that much of a stretch.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 2/10/2018 at 4:01 PM, Widow's Watch said:

Varys explaining to Tyrion how he was cut and what happened to him has me wondering. This dialogue happens after Varys tells Tyrion how Cortnay Penrose died and if he believes in the old powers.

Could this be the reason Varys undermined Rhaegar? I never really understood why Varys who constantly says he works for the realm would work against someone who is well loved and might be able to right the ship. At first, I thought that maybe it had to do with this possible Blackfyre conspiracy, but that would take years to happen, years in which anything could happen. When Tywin arrived at the gates of King's Landing, he counsels Aerys to keep the gates closed. If Varys was plotting the downfall of House Targaryen, that's no skin off his nose. He can don a disguise and leave through one of the tunnels and take a ship back to Pentos.

But if Rhaegar is looking into magic (and prophecy is steeped in magic), then perhaps Varys decided that Rhaegar should be kept far away from the throne. I'm not sure it's that much of a stretch.

Could be. And I agree that the Aegon Blackfyre theory has to make sense of the fact that Varys was in King's Landing well before the "fAegon" plot could have been hatched. 

That was actually one of the reasons, I broke from the traditional Aegon Blackfyre theory, which assumes that Aegon is the son of Illyrio and Serra, and that Viserys and Serra are the Blackfyres. 

I disagree... I think Illyrio is the Blackfyre, and Varys is his agent. I think Varys was sent to King’s Landing to destabilize Aerys's reign to pave the way for Illyrio. But, as Pycelle tells Tyrion, "Robert was too strong, and Lord Eddard moved too swiftly..." 

In the wake of Robert's Rebellion, I think they began plotting the "fAegon" plan, and Illyrio found a bed slave in Lys...

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The Lyseni are also great breeders of slaves, mating beauty with beauty in hopes of producing ever more refined and lovely courtesans and bedslaves. The blood of Valyria still runs strong in Lys, where even the smallfolk oft boast pale skin, silver-gold hair, and the purple, lilac, and pale blue eyes of the dragonlords of old. The Lysene nobility values purity of blood above all and have produced many famous (and infamous) beauties. Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty.

The World of Ice and Fire

He wed her so that Aegon would be the trueborn heir to Daemon Blackfyre's claim. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

42 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I disagree... I think Illyrio is the Blackfyre, and Varys is his agent. I think Varys was sent to King’s Landing to destabilize Aerys's reign to pave the way for Illyrio. But, as Pycelle tells Tyrion, "Robert was too strong, and Lord Eddard moved too swiftly..."

If I had to bet on anyone being a Blackfyre, I'd go with Illyrio. I don't think Varys is shaving his head or trying to hide his identity. He is from Lys and people with Valyrian features are all over the place. It's not like he ever hid where he was originally from. It's not like he would need to hide his silver hair. And maybe he doesn't shave his head, he's a eunuch, so maybe the hair stopped growing after he was cut. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

22 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

If I had to bet on anyone being a Blackfyre, I'd go with Illyrio. I don't think Varys is shaving his head or trying to hide his identity. He is from Lys and people with Valyrian features are all over the place. It's not like he ever hid where he was originally from. It's not like he would need to hide his silver hair. And maybe he doesn't shave his head, he's a eunuch, so maybe the hair stopped growing after he was cut. 

I used to think like that too. @J. Stargaryen changed my mind. Varys has a drop of dragonblood, I think. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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"Some men take their oaths more seriously than others, Robb. And Lord Walder was always friendlier with Casterly Rock than my father would have liked. One of his sons is wed to Tywin Lannister's sister. That means little of itself, to be sure. Lord Walder has sired a great many children over the years, and they must needs marry someone. Still . . . "

"Do you think he means to betray us to the Lannisters, my lady?" Glover asked gravely.

Catelyn sighed. "If truth be told, I doubt even Lord Frey knows what Lord Frey intends to do. He has an old man's caution and a young man's ambition, and has never lacked for cunning."

Catelyn IX, Game 59

I was going to post the latter part in Moments of Foreshadowing, but then I realized the bolded part explains Walder's motivation was not the slight on his house by Robb, but his own ambition and cunning. 

[Lady Anna]

In back-to-back chapters:

First, in Reek II, the ironmen in Moat Cailin surrender but are then executed by the Boltons/Freys:

''Along the rotting-plank road, wooden stakes were driven deep into the boggy ground; there the corpses festered, red and dripping. Sixty-three, he knew, there are sixty-three of them. One was short half an arm. Another had a parchment shoved between its teeth, its wax seal still unbroken''.

Then in Jon V, the Watch gains the same amount of men from the wildings at Mole Town that surrendered and were allowed to stay in the south:

''By the time the last withered apple had been handed out, the wagons were crowded with wildlings, and they were sixty-three stronger than when the column had set out from Castle Black that morning. "What will you do with them?" Bowen Marsh asked Jon on the ride back up the kingsroad''.

[J. Stargaryen]

20 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I used to think like that too. @J. Stargaryen changed my mind. Varys has a drop of dragonblood, I think. 

How did I do that? 

14 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

In back-to-back chapters:

First, in Reek II, the ironmen in Moat Cailin surrender but are then executed by the Boltons/Freys:

''Along the rotting-plank road, wooden stakes were driven deep into the boggy ground; there the corpses festered, red and dripping. Sixty-three, he knew, there are sixty-three of them. One was short half an arm. Another had a parchment shoved between its teeth, its wax seal still unbroken''.

Then in Jon V, the Watch gains the same amount of men from the wildings at Mole Town that surrendered and were allowed to stay in the south:

''By the time the last withered apple had been handed out, the wagons were crowded with wildlings, and they were sixty-three stronger than when the column had set out from Castle Black that morning. "What will you do with them?" Bowen Marsh asked Jon on the ride back up the kingsroad''.

Nice!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

15 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

In back-to-back chapters:

First, in Reek II, the ironmen in Moat Cailin surrender but are then executed by the Boltons/Freys:

''Along the rotting-plank road, wooden stakes were driven deep into the boggy ground; there the corpses festered, red and dripping. Sixty-three, he knew, there are sixty-three of them. One was short half an arm. Another had a parchment shoved between its teeth, its wax seal still unbroken''.

Then in Jon V, the Watch gains the same amount of men from the wildings at Mole Town that surrendered and were allowed to stay in the south:

''By the time the last withered apple had been handed out, the wagons were crowded with wildlings, and they were sixty-three stronger than when the column had set out from Castle Black that morning. "What will you do with them?" Bowen Marsh asked Jon on the ride back up the kingsroad''.

Wow. Nice catch! 

What do you think it means, if anything? Are these 63 wildlings destined for the same fate as the 63 ironmen?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

How did I do that?

Oh, I think it was in the one of the threads leading up to @Veltigar's statement of the Brightfyre theory. And I think it was you. I was quite sure that Illyrio was the Blackfyre (otherwise his motivation doesn't add up for me), and that Varys was nothing more than what he appeared, but I became sold somwhere in one of those old threads that Varys was a descendant of Aerion Brightflame. I have since backed off of that conclusiom, but I am quite convinced that Varys has a drop of dragonblood. I suspect he's just a seed, though, or maybe a cousin of Illyrio's. 

ETA

Those were good threads. 

[Lady Anna]

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Wow. Nice catch! 

What do you think it means, if anything? Are these 63 wildlings destined for the same fate as the 63 ironmen?

Thanks guys. I don't know, I think it was meant as a parallel between the two situations but Jon does later mention those 63 wildings again in other contexts (such as 20 of them being spearwives) but I don't think they will all have the same fate. 

I then thought to check if the number had appeared again in the series and the only other time was in Daenerys' chapters: the 163 crucified children and masters. Granted, it's not exactly the same number ha!

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I had never noticed just how similar Othor and the Undying's attacks on Jon and Dany were similar and how both ended in flames. Ghost alerts Jon to what was going on, but Jon is the one who sets Othor ablaze and Drogon is the one who wakes Dany and sets the whole thing on fire. That's not to mention being attacked by dead people.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I had never noticed just how similar Othor and the Undying's attacks on Jon and Dany were similar and how both ended in flames. Ghost alerts Jon to what was going on, but Jon is the one who sets Othor ablaze and Drogon is the one who wakes Dany and sets the whole thing on fire. 

Doesn't Mormont's raven suggest to Jon to burn unOthor? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Doesn't Mormont's raven suggest to Jon to burn unOthor? 

He suggests it after Jon has made a grab for the lamp. I'm assuming that's what Jon had in mind, to set the wight on fire before Mormont's raven said the word burn.

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And suddenly the corpse's weight was gone, its fingers ripped from his throat. It was all Jon could do to roll over, retching and shaking. Ghost had it again. He watched as the direwolf buried his teeth in the wight's gut and began to rip and tear. He watched, only half conscious, for a long moment before he finally remembered to look for his sword . . .
. . . and he saw Lord Mormont, naked and groggy from sleep, standing in the doorway with an oil lamp in hand. Gnawed and fingerless, the arm thrashed on the floor, wriggling toward him.
Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"
Spinning, Jon saw the drapes he'd ripped from the window. He flung the lamp into the puddled cloth with both hands. Metal crunched, glass shattered, oil spewed, and the hangings went up in a great whoosh of flame. The heat of it on his face was sweeter than any kiss Jon had ever known. "Ghost!" he shouted. (Jon VII, AGOT 52)

 

[Ckram]

Patchface: "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." (ASOS, Davos II)

Melisandre: "The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born." (ASOS, Davos IV)

Thoros: "I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." (AFFC, Brienne VIII)

Daenerys: "His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon." (AGOT, Daenerys I)

 

King's blood (Robb's) + Fire (of R'hllor) = Wake (Lady) stone(heart's) dragon (Viserys' style)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

6 hours ago, Ckram said:

Patchface: "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." (ASOS, Davos II)

Melisandre: "The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born." (ASOS, Davos IV)

Thoros: "I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." (AFFC, Brienne VIII)

Daenerys: "His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon." (AGOT, Daenerys I)

 

King's blood (Robb's) + Fire (of R'hllor) = Wake (Lady) stone(heart's) dragon (Viserys' style)

Nice!  

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Ckram said:

Patchface: "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye." (ASOS, Davos II)

Melisandre: "The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king's blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born." (ASOS, Davos IV)

Thoros: "I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose." (AFFC, Brienne VIII)

Daenerys: "His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it "waking the dragon." (AGOT, Daenerys I)

 

King's blood (Robb's) + Fire (of R'hllor) = Wake (Lady) stone(heart's) dragon (Viserys' style)

 

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Nice!  

Yes. Very clever. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Every time I read Daenerys VII, Game 61, I am struck by the apparent similarities between the Lhazareen--the lamb men of Lhazar and Jesus--the Nazarene who raised Lazarus from the dead. Do you suppose that the author wants us to relate the two? 

Oh, And I can't get Sam Neil growling "Nazarene!" Out of my head.

[Lost Melnibonean]

A lot of readers assume that this scene represents a fundamental shift in Daenerys’s character arc...

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She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear. "To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

"Quaithe?" Dany called. "Where are you, Quaithe?"

Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight. "Remember who you are, Daenerys," the stars whispered in a woman's voice. "The dragons know. Do you?"

...

I did wait. For my crown, for my throne, for you. All those years, and all I ever got was a pot of molten gold. Why did they give the dragon' s eggs to you? They should have been mine. If I' d had a dragon, I would have taught the world the meaning of our words. Viserys began to laugh, until his jaw fell away from his face, smoking, and blood and molten gold ran from his mouth.

...

"I am the blood of the dragon," she told the grass, aloud.

Once, the grass whispered back, until you chained your dragons in the dark.

"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

Aye, the grass said, but you turned against your children.

...

You are a queen, her bear said. In Westeros. "It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired,Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorahwere falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

Daenerys X, Dance 71

If so, will Daenerys now be turning a blind eye to this sort of thing...

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Across the road, a girl no older than Dany was sobbing in a high thin voice as a rider shoved her over a pile of corpses, facedown, and thrust himself inside her. Other riders dismounted to take their turns. That was the sort of deliverance the Dothraki brought the Lamb Men.

I am the blood of the dragon, Daenerys Targaryen reminded herself as she turned her face away. She pressed her lips together and hardened her heart and rode on toward the gate.

Danerys VII, Game 61

After all, as Daenerys herself believes, such "is the price of the Iron Throne." Daenerys VII, Game 61