Dead headofMaelysKinslayer

Wow, I never noticed that v.16

507 posts in this topic

20 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Guess you have beaten me to it with a few months. Also nice find on the demon monkey

I think it was perhaps in the world book that it was said Robb makes the proposal that they become brothers in more than fostering and Ned agrees to bring this to his father but maybe I'm wrong.

I looked and it simply says he fell in love in with Lyanna and Ned agreed to bring the suit to Winterfell.

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40 minutes ago, Livesundersink said:

I looked and it simply says he fell in love in with Lyanna and Ned agreed to bring the suit to Winterfell.

So they must have decided upon it during their time in the Vale and when Ned returned home he brought the proposal to his father. Unless Robert and Ned were spending time together in some other region before the betrothal.

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Struck me on last reread that this:

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He woke in darkness, shivering. The room hadgrown cold as ice. Jaime flung aside the covers with the stump of his sword hand. The fire in the hearth had died, he saw, and the window had blown open. He crossed the pitch-dark chamber to fumble with the shutters, but when he reached the window his bare foot came down in something wet. Jaime recoiled, startled for a moment. His first thought was of blood, but blood would not have been so cold.
 
It was snow, drifting through the window.

Probably is the morning after this:

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Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

The wording at least seems very suggestive. 

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After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows. The tree itself was shrinking, growing smaller with each vision, whilst the lesser trees dwindled into saplings and vanished, only to be replaced by other trees that would dwindle and vanish in their turn. And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them.

Each vision is from an earlier time. So the brown haired girl kissing a night comes before the woman begging for a son for revenge..

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She was a very ugly old woman, Bran thought spitefully; shrunken and wrinkled, almost blind, too weak to climb stairs, with only a few wisps of white hair left to cover a mottled pink scalp. No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she'd been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms. Nan had come to the castle as a wet nurse for a Brandon Stark whose mother had died birthing him. He had been an older brother of Lord Rickard, Bran's grandfather, or perhaps a younger brother, or a brother to Lord Rickard's father. Sometimes Old Nan told it one way and sometimes another. In all the stories the little boy died at three of a summer chill, but Old Nan stayed on at Winterfell with her own children. She had lost both her sons to the war when King Robert won the throne, and her grandson was killed on the walls of Pyke during Balon Greyjoy's rebellion. Her daughters had long ago married and moved away and died. All that was left of her own blood was Hodor, the simpleminded giant who worked in the stables, but Old Nan just lived on and on, doing her needlework and telling her stories.

Before Eddard's father Rickard, there are two Brandons in more recent times. This was probably the son of Lyanna Glover and Willam Stark, just as it says in the wiki.

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Their footsteps echoed through the vault as they made their way between the rows of pillars. The stone eyes of the dead men seemed to follow them, and the eyes of their stone direwolves as well. The faces stirred faint memories. A few names came back to him, unbidden, whispered in the ghostly voice of Maester Luwin. King Edrick Snowbeard, who had ruled the north for a hundred years. Brandon the Shipwright, who had sailed beyond the sunset. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. My namesake. Lord Beron Stark, who made common cause with Casterly Rock to war against Dagon Greyjoy, Lord of Pyke, in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

Dunk frowned. "Egg and I have a long journey before us. We're headed north to Winterfell. Lord Beron Stark is gathering swords to drive the krakens from his shores for good."

Preparing to attack on Ironborn, this takes around the time of Whitewalls Tourney, which was in 211.

 

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The last King-Beyond-the-Wall to cross the Wall was Raymun Redbeard, who brought the wildlings together in 212 or 213 AC. It was not until 226 AC that he and the wildlings would breach the Wall by climbing in their hundreds and thousands up the slick ice and down the other side.
Raymun's host numbered in the thousands, by all accounts, and they fought their way as far south as Long Lake. There, Lord Willam Stark and the Drunken Giant, Lord Harmond of House Umber, brought their armies against them. With two hosts surrounding him, and the lake to his back, Redbeard fought and died, but not before slaying Lord Willam.

.

Willam is son of Beron.

 

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Skagos has often been a source of trouble for the Starks—both as kings when they sought to conquer it and as lords when they fought to keep its fealty. Indeed, as recently as the reign of King Daeron II Targaryen (Daeron the Good), the isle rose up against the Lord of Winterfell—a rebellion that lasted years and claimed the lives of thousands of others, including that of Barthogan Stark, Lord of Winterfell (called Barth Blacksword), before finally being put down.

The island sat at the mouth of the Bay of Seals, massive and mountainous, a stark and forbidding land peopled by savages. They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war. Skagos meant "stone" in the Old Tongue. The Skagosi named themselves the stoneborn, but their fellow northmen called them Skaggs and liked them little. Only a hundred years ago Skagos had risen in rebellion. Their revolt had taken years to quell and claimed the life of the Lord of Winterfell and hundreds of his sworn swords. Some songs said the Skaggs were cannibals; supposedly their warriors ate the hearts and livers of the men they slew. In ancient days, the Skagosi had sailed to the nearby isle of Skane, seized its women, slaughtered its men, and ate them on a pebbled beach in a feast that lasted for a fortnight. Skane remained unpeopled to this day.

After the Dance of the Dragons, the Starks were more overtly loyal to the Targaryens than previously. Indeed, Lord Cregan Stark's son and heir fought beneath the Targaryen banner when the Young Dragon sought to conquer Dorne. Rickon Stark fought bravely, his deeds sometimes reported by King Daeron in his Conquest of Dorne, and Rickon's death outside of Sunspear in one of the final battles was lamented in the North for years to come because of the troubles that dogged the reigns of his half brothers.
In the decades that followed, the North saw the Starks dealing with the rebellion of Skagos, a renewed onslaught of reaving by the ironborn under Dagon Greyjoy, and a wildling invasion led by Raymun Redbeard, the King-Beyondthe-Wall in 226 AC. In each of these, Starks died. Yet the house continued with its fortunes mostly unchanged—likely because of the firm resolve of most Lords of Winterfell not to become embroiled in the intrigues of the southron court. When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King's crimes.

So the turn of events appear to be, Skagosi rebellion, Ironborn reavings and Wildling invasion. Dunk and Egg novella She-Wolves-of-Winterfell was going to start with Lord Beron dying.or recently dead.

 

With all the above, brown haired girl is likely old nan so the pregnant women would be after Old Nan's coming but before Benjen and Lyanna were born.

We have two likely candidates who are the only son of their mothers, Rickard Stark, son of Edwyle Stark and Marna Locke, or Edwyle Stark, son of Melantha Blackwood and Willam Stark.. They also have a daughter, Jocelyn Stark.

 

While Jocelyn could be older than Edwyle, who would be born after his father's death if it is his mother in Bran's visions, With Raymun Redbeard, why would she need a son to avenge her? Wiki's calculation also puts Rickard's birth somewhere between 230 and 249, if Willam Stark were born after the battle of 226, this would also be bit of a stretch

So the naked women begging for a son was likely Lord Rickard's mother, since they have no other children either, her husband must also have died. I wonder who killed him.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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On 12-10-2017 at 3:44 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am pretty sure Lord Rickard was behind it. 

The books don't state it specifically. Only that Eddard travelled to Winterfell to bring Robert's suit to Rickard, and that Rickard accepted. ADWD states that Maester Walys gave Rickard the idea to betroth Brandon to Catelyn Tully, which might be a suggestion for him having inspired the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna as well, but if that is the case, we have yet to learn about it.

The app states that Robert conceived a passion for Lyanna, and was the one to propose the betrothal; That Eddard was delighted by it; And that Rickard accepted it.

 

On 13-10-2017 at 0:26 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Thanks. Robert wasn't there, though, was he? 

In Game, it is implied that Robert has never been to the North

“I was starting to think we would never reach Winterfell,” Robert complained as they descended. “In the south, the way they talk about my Seven Kingdoms, a man forgets that your part is as big as the other six combined.”
“I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?”

Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”

On 13-10-2017 at 7:25 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I think it was perhaps in the world book that it was said Robb makes the proposal that they become brothers in more than fostering and Ned agrees to bring this to his father but maybe I'm wrong.

Are you thinking of this passage?

“Come south with me, and I’ll teach you how to laugh again,” the king promised. “You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done.”

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37 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The books don't state it specifically. Only that Eddard travelled to Winterfell to bring Robert's suit to Rickard, and that Rickard accepted. ADWD states that Maester Walys gave Rickard the idea to betroth Brandon to Catelyn Tully, which might be a suggestion for him having inspired the betrothal between Robert and Lyanna as well, but if that is the case, we have yet to learn about it.

The app states that Robert conceived a passion for Lyanna, and was the one to propose the betrothal; That Eddard was delighted by it; And that Rickard accepted it.

Dank je. So, we ought to assume, then, that Lyanna visited Eddard and Robert at the Eyrie, no? I wonder whether one of her brothers might have accompanied her? And I wonder if Rickard was angling for the outcome. 

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All three siblings had shown themselves to be dragonlords before they wed. Of the five dragons who had flown with Aenar the Exile from Valyria, only one survived to Aegon’s day: the great beast called Balerion, the Black Dread.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Wow, I never noticed that like his son Maegor I, and his great grandson, Viserys I, would do, Aegon I claimed a mature and super badass dragon. Do we have any idea who Balerion's previous rider was? Do we know how old Aegon was when he claimed Balerion? Shouls we assume that, like Maegor I, Aegon I was holding out for Balerion? Do we know how old Aegon I was when he claimed Balerion? 

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As well, there are reliable reports of Aegon and his sister Visenya visiting the Citadel of Oldtown in their youth, and hawking on the Arbor as guests of Lord Redwyne. He may have visited Lannisport as well; accounts differ.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Do you suppose Aegon and Visenya visted Redwyne, Hightower, and Lannister on dragonback or ship deck? 

ETA

Many members of this forum suggest that it would be impossible for the Ironmen to conquer and rule another of the seven kingdoms, but it has been done in the past....

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North of the Blackwater, the riverlands were ruled by the bloody hand of Harren the Black of House Hoare, King of the Isles and the Rivers. Harren’s ironborn grandsire, Harwyn Hardhand, had taken the Trident from Argilac’s grandsire, Arrec, whose own forebears had thrown down the last of the river kings centuries earlier. Harren’s father had extended his domains east to Duskendale and Rosby. Harren himself had devoted most of his long reign, close on forty years, to building a gigantic castle beside the Gods Eye, but with Harrenhal at last nearing completion, the ironborn were soon free to seek fresh conquests.

No king in Westeros was more feared than Black Harren, whose cruelty had become legendary all through the Seven Kingdoms.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

The Ironman rule of the Riverlands lasted three generations, and they were only ousted by the dragons, an Aegon by the way. The difference was that none of the other independent kingdoms came to the aid of the Riverlands, which had been occupied by the Stormlanders when Black Harren invaded. A united Seven Kingdoms would be expected to put down relatively easily any such attempt at conquest, as King Robert did when Balon rose up. But currently, the Seven Kingdoms are anything but united. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

 Are you thinking of this passage?

“Come south with me, and I’ll teach you how to laugh again,” the king promised. “You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done.”

Yes, I think it was possibly this. Thanks.

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dank je. So, we ought to assume, then, that Lyanna visited Eddard and Robert at the Eyrie, no? I wonder whether one of her brothers might have accompanied her? And I wonder if Rickard was angling for the outcome. 

Lyanna might have visited the Eyrie, Lyanna might have visited another place where Robert also visited, Robert might have seen only a portrait of Lyanna and heard stories about her from Ned which made him fall in love. There probably are some other alternatives.

With Rickard's ambitions in mind, I too wonder how much he manipulated the events that led to the betrothal. Perhaps he had nothing to do with it, but perhaps he did.

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This...

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Argilac had the hands of Aegon’s envoy cut off and returned to him in a box. “These are the only hands your bastard shall have of me,” he wrote.

Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small. The Velaryons  on Driftmark were sworn to House Targaryen, as were the Celtigars of Claw Isle. From Massey’s Hook came Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point and Lord Massey of Stonedance, both sworn to Storm’s End, but with closer ties to Dragonstone. Lord Aegon and his sisters took counsel with them and visited the castle sept to pray to the Seven of Westeros as well though he had never before been accounted a pious man.

Is followed by this...

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Having taken a dozen castles and secured the mouth of the Blackwater Rush on both sides of the river, he commanded the lords he had defeated to attend him. There they laid their swords at his feet, and Aegon raised them up and confirmed them in their lands and titles. To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of the Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be “my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand.” Thus Baratheon is reckoned by the maesters the first King’s Hand.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

What did Lord Bar Emmon get? Left out? 

ETA

If the Ironmen's cruelty in the Riverlands, which at that time included the continental Crownlands north of the Blackwater, was so terrible, I wonder why the lords of Maidenpool and Duskendale marshaled an army and marched into the gullet of the Dragon? 

ETA II

This...

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Heraldic banners had long been a tradition amongst the lords of Westeros, but such had never been used by the dragonlords of old Valyria. When Aegon’s knights unfurled his great silken battle standard, with a red three-headed dragon breathing fire upon a black field, the lords took it for a sign that he was now truly one of them, a worthy high king for Westeros.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Recalls this...

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Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall. The Thenns had no family arms as was customary amongst the nobles of the Seven Kingdoms, so Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had done well. The bride's cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys's shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. The echo of the Karstark sunburst was there for those who cared to look, but differenced to make the arms appropriate for House Thenn.

Jon X, Dance 49

ETA III

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When Queen Visenya placed a Valyrian steel circlet, studded with rubies, on her brother’s head and Queen Rhaenys hailed him as, “Aegon, First of His Name, King of All Westeros, and Shield of His People,” the dragons roared and the lords and knights sent up a cheer . . . but the smallfolk, the fisherman and field hands and goodwives, shouted loudest of all.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Did the smallfolk shout the loudest because they were happy about the Dragon, or because they were glad to be rid of the kraken? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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I don't get this bit from The Conquest, TWOIAF...

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The two armies came together amongst the wide, open plains south of the Blackwater, near to where the Goldroad would run one day. The two kings rejoiced when their scouts returned to them to report Targaryen numbers and dispositions. They had five men for every one of Aegon’s, it seemed, and the disparity in lords and knights was even greater. And the land was wide and open, all grass and wheat as far as the eye could see, ideal for heavy horse. Aegon Targaryen did not command the high ground, as Orys Baratheon had at the Last Storm; the ground was firm, not muddy. Nor were they troubled by rain. The day was cloudless though windy. There had been no rain for more than a fortnight.

King Mern had brought half again as many men to the battle as King Loren, and so demanded the honor of commanding the center. His son and heir, Edmund, was given the vanguard.

Normally, the vanguard will move to the right, the middle will move up to the center, and the rear will move to the left, (small infantry units maneuver in a similar fashion today) but sometimes the vanguard might remain in the front...

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King Loren and his knights formed the right, Lord Oakheart the left. With no natural barriers to anchor the Targaryen line, the two kings meant to sweep around Aegon on both flanks, then take him in the rear, whilst their “iron fist,” a great wedge of armored knights and high lords, smashed through Aegon’s center. 

So that's cool, and on the other side...

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Aegon Targaryen drew his own men up in a rough crescent bristling with spears and pikes, with archers and crossbowmen just behind and light cavalry on either flank. He gave command of his host to Jon Mooton, Lord of Maidenpool, one of the first foes to come over to his cause. The king himself intended to do his fighting from the sky, beside his queens. Aegon had noted the absence of rain as well; the grass and wheat that surrounded the armies was tall and ripe for harvest . . . and very dry.The Targaryens waited until the two kings sounded their trumpets and started forward beneath a sea of banners.

But then...

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King Mern himself led the charge against the center on his golden stallion, his son Gawen beside him with his banner, a great green hand upon a field of white.

So, I presume that King Mern's center merged with Gawen's vanguard, and then...

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Roaring and screaming, urged on by horns and drums, the Gardeners and Lannisters charged through a storm of arrows down unto their foes, sweeping aside the Targaryen spearmen, shattering their ranks. But by then Aegon and his sisters were in the air.

Now here's where I get a bit confused. The center and the vanguard have crashed into Mooton's crecent, but then...

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Aegon flew above the ranks of his foes upon Balerion, through a storm of spears and stones and arrows, swooping down repeatedly to bathe his foes in flame.

That makes sense, if we assume that Aegon is torching the rear of Mern's center and the flanks, which presumably, have only begun their planned double envelopment, but how's this now...

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Rhaenys and Visenya set fires upwind of the enemy and behind them. The dry grasses and stands of wheat went up at once. The wind fanned the flames and blew the smoke into the faces of the advancing ranks of the two kings. The scent of fire sent their mounts into panic, and as the smoke thickened, horse and rider alike were blinded. Their ranks began to break as walls of fire rose on every side of them. Lord Mooton’s men, safely upwind of the conflagration, waited with their bows and spears and made short work of the burned and burning men who came staggering from the inferno.

If the font ranks of the western alliance had already smashed into Mooton's crecent, and if Rhaenys and Visenya lit fires upwind and behind the enemy, with the wind fanning the flames, wouldn't that spread the fire downwind and blow the smoke into both of the main formations? 

ETA

This...

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Sharra Arryn had strengthened the defenses of Gulltown, moved a strong host to the Bloody Gate, and tripled the size of the garrisons in Stone, Snow, and Sky, the waycastles that guarded the approach to the Eyrie. All these defenses proved useless against Visenya Targaryen, who rode Vhagar’s leathery wings above them all and landed in the Eyrie’s inner courtyard. When the regent of the Vale rushed out to confront her, with a dozen guards at her back, she found Visenya with Ronnel Arryn seated on her knee, staring at the dragon, wonder-struck. “Mother, can I go flying with the lady?” the boy king asked. No threats were spoken, no angry words exchanged. The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent’s coronet, her son’s small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant’s Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother’s realm.

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Makes for a nice tale, but Visenya was foolhardy to land in the castle's inner keep. Why did Sharra pay so much attention to her castle's defenses without preparing dragonslayers, as Harren had done at Harrenhal? It's not like she had no idea that a dragon might come. Why was the castle guard so slow to react--and why didn't the wee king have some protection? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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On ‎18‎.‎10‎.‎2017 at 9:41 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Conquest, TWOIAF

Makes for a nice tale, but Visenya was foolhardy to land in the castle's inner keep. Why did Sharra pay so much attention to her castle's defenses without preparing dragonslayers, as Harren had done at Harrenhal? It's not like she had no idea that a dragon might come. Why was the castle guard so slow to react--and why didn't the wee king have some protection? 

 

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My cousin means to remove you as Lord Protector."

"If so, I cannot stop him. I keep a garrison of twenty men. Lord Royce and his friends can raise twenty thousand." Petyr went to the oaken chest that sat beneath the window. "Bronze Yohn will do what he will do," he said, kneeling. He opened the chest, drew out a roll of parchment, and brought it to Lord Nestor. "My lord. This is a token of the love my lady bore you."

No reason to think it was a bigger garrison earlier; there are three way castles until one reaches the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon and before them comes Gates of the Moon which has a considerable amount of men garrisoning it.

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TWOIAF Westerlands

Ultimately the Lannister domains would extend from the western shore to the headwaters of the Red Fork and Tumblestone, marked by the pass beneath the Golden Tooth, and from the southern shore of Ironman’s Bay to the borders of the Reach.  The boundaries of the westerlands today follow those of the Kingdom of the Rock as it was before the Field of Fire, when King Loren Lannister (Loren the Last) knelt as a king and rose as a lord.  But in bygone days, the boundaries were more fluid, particularly to the south, where the Lannisters oft contended against the Gardeners in the Reach, and to the east, where they warred against the many kings of the Trident.

I'm wondering about the Tullys and the Tyrells motivations. How much were they motivated by the search for more power and how much was just trying to keep Tywin in check?

 

 

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Bran's coma dream in AGOT :

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"I'm falling!"
Every flight begins with a fall, the crow said. Look down.
"I'm afraid …"
LOOK DOWN!
Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.(Bran III, AGOT)

 

 
 
 
And now Sansa and Lysa (with red face like a weirwood and claws like a bird) in front of the moon door :
 
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Beyond was white sky, falling snow, and nothing else.
"Look down," said Lady Lysa. "Look down."
She tried to wrench free, but her aunt's fingers were digging into her arm like claws. Lysa gave her another shove, and Sansa shrieked. Her left foot broke through a crust of snow and knocked it loose. There was nothing in front of her but empty air, and a waycastle six hundred feet below clinging to the side of the mountain. "Don't!" Sansa screamed. "You're scaring me!" (Sansa VII, ASOS)

 

 

Now bonus : Sansa and Dontos escaping from the Red Keep
 
 
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"This is the way. It won't be so hard for a strong young girl like you. Hold on tight and never look down and you'll be at the bottom in no time at all." 
(...)
Sansa dared not look down. She kept her eyes on the face of the cliff, making certain of each step before reaching for the next. The stone was rough and cold. Sometimes she could feel her fingers slipping, and the handholds were not as evenly spaced as she would have liked. The bells would not stop ringing. Before she was halfway down her arms were trembling and she knew that she was going to fall. One more step, she told herself, one more step. She had to keep moving. If she stopped, she would never start again, and dawn would find her still clinging to the cliff, frozen in fear. One more step, and one more step.
The ground took her by surprise. She stumbled and fell, her heart pounding. When she rolled onto her back and stared up at from where she had come, her head swam dizzily and her fingers clawed at the dirt. I did it. I did it, I didn't fall, I made the climb and now I'm going home.(Sansa V ASOS)

 

 
 
+ Sam the crow unchained by snow and ice and fear (like the winged wolf unchained at Winterfell) escaping from the Fist :
 
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Sobbing, Sam took another step. This is the last one, the very last, I can't go on, I can't. But his feet moved again. One and then the other. They took a step, and then another, and he thought, They're not my feet, they're someone else's, someone else is walking, it can't be me.
When he looked down he could see them stumbling through the snow; shapeless things, and clumsy. His boots had been black, he seemed to remember, but the snow had caked around them, and now they were misshapen white balls. Like two clubfeet made of ice.
It would not stop, the snow. The drifts were up past his knees, and a crust covered his lower legs like a pair of white greaves. His steps were dragging, lurching. The heavy pack he carried made him look like some monstrous hunchback. And he was tired, so tired. I can't go on. Mother have mercy, I can't.
 
(...)
A root beneath the crust caught his toe, and Sam tripped and fell heavily to one knee, so hard he bit his tongue.(Sam I ASOS)

 

 

 
 
 

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On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 5:05 PM, SiSt said:

Struck me on last reread that this:

Probably is the morning after this:

The wording at least seems very suggestive. 

Very nice catch. This is really notable.

I've been starting to pay attention to characters waking up and how they remove their sheets. In one case, Cersei's sheets wound around her neck during the night; we know about Sansa cutting and then burning her sheet after her "flowering." GRRM doesn't just create "rebirths" for his characters, he gives them death first and then rebirth. I think sheets may symbolize death shrouds. It's probably significant that Jaime "flung aside the covers with the stump of his sword hand."

5 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said:

Bran's coma dream in AGOT :

And now Sansa and Lysa (with red face like a weirwood and claws like a bird) in front of the moon door :
 
Now bonus : Sansa and Dontos escaping from the Red Keep
 
+ Sam the crow unchained by snow and ice and fear (like the winged wolf unchained at Winterfell) escaping from the Fist :

Nice catch on the Bran / Sansa and crow / Lysa comparison. I assume Lysa in the role of the crow is because crones and crows are linked - one can peer through the door between life and death, and the other (or ravens, at least) can fly back and forth through that door. But maybe Lysa has (or had) three eyes - it was she who sent Catelyn the Myrish lens early in AGoT, after all.

There is one more passage in the "first one step, then another" series, I think:

For a long way they stayed to the trail, following its twists and turns as it snaked along the side of the mountain, upward, ever upward. Sometimes the mountain folded back on itself and they lost sight of the fire, but soon or late it would always reappear. The path Stonesnake chose would never have served for the horses. In places Jon had to put his back to the cold stone and shuffle along sideways like a crab, inch by inch. Even where the track widened it was treacherous; there were cracks big enough to swallow a man's leg, rubble to stumble over, hollow places where the water pooled by day and froze hard by night. One step and then another, Jon told himself.

One step and then another, and I will not fall.

He had not shaved since leaving the Fist of the First Men, and the hair on his lip was soon stiff with frost. Two hours into the climb, the wind kicked up so fiercely that it was all he could do to hunch down and cling to the rock, praying he would not be blown off the mountain. One step and then another, he resumed when the gale subsided. One step and then another, and I will not fall.

Soon they were high enough so that looking down was best not considered. There was nothing below but yawning blackness, nothing above but moon and stars. "The mountain is your mother," Stonesnake had told him during an easier climb a few days past. "Cling to her, press your face up against her teats, and she won't drop you." Jon had made a joke of it, saying how he'd always wondered who his mother was, but never thought to find her in the Frostfangs. It did not seem nearly so amusing now. One step and then another, he thought, clinging tight. (ACoK, Jon VI) 

 

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Jon notices carved faces which look at Kingsroad, bridge and  the Wall during his visit to Mole's town. Maybe Brynden warged someone to strenghten his network.

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1 hour ago, Seams said:

Nice catch on the Bran / Sansa and crow / Lysa comparison. I assume Lysa in the role of the crow is because crones and crows are linked - one can peer through the door between life and death, and the other (or ravens, at least) can fly back and forth through that door. But maybe Lysa has (or had) three eyes - it was she who sent Catelyn the Myrish lens early in AGoT, after all.

Thanks ! also for remind me the crow/crone stuff. In Sansa's chapter, Sansa and Lysa are playing both exactly the same character but their age is different : Sansa is the maiden, and Lysa was the Maiden before she became Mother and Crone. Like the broken Alyssa Arryn half buried under the snow, Sansa rises a snow castle as a grave and becomes the new  queen Alyssa (she finishes covered with crusty snow and cold); Lysa lives for years in this cold castle and became a dry weirwood, whom tears are poisoning instead of fertilizing (another "stone heart" ?).

I'm not sure if Lysa has 3 eyes nor if this is important, but the symbol of the Maiden slowly but surely poisoned/contamined by the crow seems for me prevalent, with (in this particular case) Littlefinger playing the crow. (I just have in mind the disney movie Snow white, with the evil queen and her raven)

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3 hours ago, Davos the Dragonslayer said:

Jon notices carved faces which look at Kingsroad, bridge and  the Wall during his visit to Mole's town. Maybe Brynden warged someone to strenghten his network.

I think that was just the heathens resorting to their old ways, and showing that their acceptance of R'hllor was just a sham, no? 

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11 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think that was just the heathens resorting to their old ways, and showing that their acceptance of R'hllor was just a sham, no? 

It is what Jon said. But Jon also noticed all faces look at specific location and I don't believe that GRRM wrote it without purpose.

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Clydas is of Valyrian (or maybe Dayne) descent?


 

Quote

 

Clydas was short, bald, and chinless, with small pink eyes like a mole.

Clydas returned to the hearth to stir the wine. He's sixty if he's a day. An old man. He only seemed young compared with Aemon. Short and round, he had the dim pink eyes of some nocturnal creature.

"Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "

Clydas blinked his dim pink eyes. "I will do my best, Jon. My lord, I mean."

 

 

He even uses "my lord" properly. Not even Dolorous Edd, a member of a branch of Tolletts whose home was similar to Craster's "Keep" don't use it properly, an example below.

Quote

"I had a frightening dream last night, m'lord," Dolorous Edd confessed. "You were my steward, fetching my food and cleaning up my leavings. I was lord commander, with never a moment's peace."

 

Now look again at the last of the Clydas quotes. He slips and calls Jon by name instead of saying "my lord". Targish eyes, lordly speech, forgetting he needs his courtesies with Jon... Clydas is secretly Rhaegar confirmed! :D 

Joke aside, I've never noticed this, do we know anything of his origins?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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