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Wow, I never noticed that v.16


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I never noticed that we get back to back chapters that make you focus on rusted iron hinges.

The Iron Captain, AFFC 19:

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Even a priest may doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices shouted out his brother's name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusted iron hinge.

Silence is the name of Euron's ship, I thought that was a nice touch. And two chapters immediately following that is Brienne IV, AFFC 21:

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She shouldered through the blackberries and pulled at a rusted iron ring. The postern door resisted for a moment, then jerked open, its hinges screaming protest. The sound made the hairs on the back of Brienne's neck stand up. She drew her sword. Even in mail and boiled leather, she felt naked.

What does the food code say about blackberries? What does this rusted iron hinge screaming in protest mean? Is it making us think that Euron raped his brother or brothers?

I noticed it again in AFFC during my simultaneous read with ADWD but I didn't highlight it and now it's lost in the abyss lol

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13 minutes ago, fire&blood said:

I never noticed that we get back to back chapters that make you focus on rusted iron hinges.

The Iron Captain, AFFC 19:

Silence is the name of Euron's ship, I thought that was a nice touch. And two chapters immediately following that is Brienne IV, AFFC 21:

What does the food code say about blackberries? What does this rusted iron hinge screaming in protest mean? Is it making us think that Euron raped his brother or brothers?

I noticed it again in AFFC during my simultaneous read with ADWD but I didn't highlight it and now it's lost in the abyss lol

There's a bunch more, try searching here. There's 12 hits for 'rusted iron' alone. 

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1 hour ago, fire&blood said:

What does the food code say about blackberries? What does this rusted iron hinge screaming in protest mean?

This thread from 2017 had some interesting ideas about blackberries. In short, a man in Winterfell's glass gardens gives a blackberry to Bran shortly before he is pushed from the old keep and loses the ability to walk. The berries might represent passage to the land of the fair folk or might represent bad luck. There could be an Adam and Eve "fall from grace" implied.

Rusted hinges probably have a lot of meanings, but they might show us that a character has entered a place that is magical or very old and not frequently visited. A full examination would probably require a look at other rusty things, though: swords in Winterfell's crypt or mail that needs to be maintained by a squire or things that wash up on the Quiet Isle. As @kissedbyfire's linked list on the search site showed, there are many possibilities.

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2 hours ago, Seams said:

 

In GRRM's writing, some phrases stand out. He is a fluid writer but, once in awhile, he uses a phrase that doesn't sound like normal conversation or that stands out in some slightly awkward way. To my ear, the sentence singled out by @The Fattest Leech and highlighted by @Rhaenys_Targaryen, above, is one of those awkward phrases that calls attention to itself. How often is Ned that poetic? Is there any other place in the books where someone uses the phrase, "for good and all"? So let's take a closer look.

1) Ned doesn't say that Gared's words were incoherent. He says that his (Ned's) words could not reach him (Gared). Technically, Gared was not able to hear Ned (or that Gared refused to listen to Ned) but Ned doesn't say that he was unable to understand Gared. Fwiw.

2) Arya tells us over an over that fear cuts deeper than swords. I think there is some wordplay going on in Ned's sentence. There is wordplay on words / sword. Ned may be saying that fear had already (symbolically) beheaded Gared - Ned's "sword" could not reach as deep as the "cut" already made by fear.

3) Bran and Ned have a conversation after the beheading: "Bran thought about it. 'Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?' 'That is the only time a man can be brave,' his father told him." Maybe Gared wasn't brave; maybe he was just 100% afraid. But what we know of Gared from the prologue and this advice from Ned makes me think that Gared was brave, even though he had been frightened by the fate of Will and Ser Waymar. (My suspicion is that Gared didn't actually desert: he came south deliberately to find Ned and inform him of what he saw.)

4) Ned doesn't really answer Catelyn's question directly. We assume he is talking about Mance Rayder and the wildlings. If you read his words a different way, he could be talking about Old Nan's story and a reenactment of the Lord of Winterfell riding to Castle Black to kill the Night's King. I think he's deliberately dissembling. I think he knew what Gared saw and he either didn't want to alarm Catelyn or he didn't want anyone to know about the looming threat of the Others.

5) If Ned knew what Gared had seen, I suspect he let Benjen go on the ranging without full knowledge of the threat he would be facing. Ned may have played a role in killing his own brother.

But I don't know why.

Very nice @Seams The part of (#2) Arya and "fear cuts deeper"... perfect!

One issue that I see is #4 where Ned does not directly answer Cat's question. My first thought is that Catelyn can handle it. She seems to be a tough, fiery broad. She has birthed five children and walks naked across the room to the fire without a care. And she survived the young lovers triangle between Petyr and Lysa ;) What sticks out to me here is that Ned is spreading the rumors that the free folk are the "bad wildlings". And if Ned did know what Gared saw (wights/Others), why didn't he warn the other northern lords at minimum? This makes me think Gared was all a jambled jumble about what he was reporting.

I never paid much attention to the "for good and all" phrase, but that is rather interesting when looked at closer.

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3 hours ago, Seams said:

This thread from 2017 had some interesting ideas about blackberries. In short, a man in Winterfell's glass gardens gives a blackberry to Bran shortly before he is pushed from the old keep and loses the ability to walk. The berries might represent passage to the land of the fair folk or might represent bad luck. There could be an Adam and Eve "fall from grace" implied.

When Davos is rescued and returned to DS by that Lyseni guy he asks for Jate Blackberry at the gate. He is lead to the postern gate and apprehended by Florents.

Later on there's an Omer Blackberry among Davos' "good men and true but not of the kingsguard" that smuggles Edric to the Free cities.

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Lysa "nibbled a blackberry from the point of Ser Lyn Corbray’s dagger."(AGoT,Ch.40 Catelyn VII) at the breakfast before Tyrion's trial by combat at the Eyrie.

And I have long been bothered by Illyrio's blackberry wine -

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“Come, drink with me,” the fat man said. “A scale from the dragon that burned you, as they say.” He poured for them from a flagon of blackberry wine so sweet that it drew more flies than honey. Tyrion shooed them off with the back of his hand and drank deep. The taste was so cloying that it was all he could do to keep it down. The second cup went down easier, however.

(ADwD,Ch.05 Tyrion II)

It's not so much the blackberries that bother me here, as the fact that it is not honey that attracts flies. Same thing bothers me about that "half a cup of sweetened wine mixed with the juice of a lime."(ASoS, Ch.71 Daenerys VI) that Missandei served Daenerys under the Persimmon tree in the terrace garden near the apex of the Great Pyramid of Meereen, after she had taken over the city.

There, it is made clear immediately after that death is what draws the flies. Thinking on it, that half cup might have been blackberry wine as well, although a twist of lime makes me think of white spirits and pale ales. But then, as anyone who has lived in cattle country can confirm, death isn't the only thing that draws flies, either.

~

I know this has been done to death, but honestly I had never noticed how Targaryen the catspaw's appearance was

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He was gaunt, with limp blond hair and pale eyes deep-sunk in a bony face

which corresponds with, in particular, Viserys' silver-blond hair, lilac eyes, and "the hard, gaunt lines of his face."(AGoT,Ch.03 Daenerys I)

That is nearly the first description of what a Targaryen looks like. Viserys and Dany are the only Targaryens described that early in the book. Apart from the word 'guant', the catspaw is linked to Targaryens in general and Viserys especially by dragonbone. Viserys has the dragonbone clasp that emphasises the gaunt lines of his face, and the catspaw holds a dragonbone dagger in his gaunt hand.

There are three other mentions of dragonbone before the dagger - Illyrio is a dealer in dragonbone, Dany is presented with a doublecurved dragonbone bow by Qotho at her wedding, and Tyrion reading about the properties of dragonbone, the emphasis on Dothraki bows reminding the reader of the Targaryens.

The fact that the knife had a dragonbone handle is also the sole reason offered for assuming the catspaw is a catspaw. 

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A weapon like that has no business being in the hands of such as him. Someone gave it to him.

(AGoT, Ch.14 Catelyn III)

Like a lot of Stark/Tully reasoning, Ser Rodrick's argument seems somewhat specious on a second read.

Like, we know that there were some short Targaryens (Aegon V, Danerys), and anyone who had spent a week or two dossing down in a stables without bathing was likely to be dirty, have filthy clothing, and stink of horses. He is incredibly inept for an assassin- he didn't expect Catelyn to be there, and "It's a mercy he is dead already" may well indicate that he thought Bran was already dead.

So yeah, short incognito Targaryen/Blackfire person in Winterfell, possibly setting fire to the library, definitely not intending to kill Catelyn. Makes as much sense as any catspaw theory I've read.

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3 hours ago, Walda said:

Lysa "nibbled a blackberry from the point of Ser Lyn Corbray’s dagger."(AGoT,Ch.40 Catelyn VII) at the breakfast before Tyrion's trial by combat at the Eyrie.

And I have long been bothered by Illyrio's blackberry wine -

(ADwD,Ch.05 Tyrion II)

It's not so much the blackberries that bother me here, as the fact that it is not honey that attracts flies. Same thing bothers me about that "half a cup of sweetened wine mixed with the juice of a lime."(ASoS, Ch.71 Daenerys VI) that Missandei served Daenerys under the Persimmon tree in the terrace garden near the apex of the Great Pyramid of Meereen, after she had taken over the city.

There, it is made clear immediately after that death is what draws the flies. Thinking on it, that half cup might have been blackberry wine as well, although a twist of lime makes me think of white spirits and pale ales. But then, as anyone who has lived in cattle country can confirm, death isn't the only thing that draws flies, either.

~

I know this has been done to death, but honestly I had never noticed how Targaryen the catspaw's appearance was

which corresponds with, in particular, Viserys' silver-blond hair, lilac eyes, and "the hard, gaunt lines of his face."(AGoT,Ch.03 Daenerys I)

That is nearly the first description of what a Targaryen looks like. Viserys and Dany are the only Targaryens described that early in the book. Apart from the word 'guant', the catspaw is linked to Targaryens in general and Viserys especially by dragonbone. Viserys has the dragonbone clasp that emphasises the gaunt lines of his face, and the catspaw holds a dragonbone dagger in his gaunt hand.

There are three other mentions of dragonbone before the dagger - Illyrio is a dealer in dragonbone, Dany is presented with a doublecurved dragonbone bow by Qotho at her wedding, and Tyrion reading about the properties of dragonbone, the emphasis on Dothraki bows reminding the reader of the Targaryens.

The fact that the knife had a dragonbone handle is also the sole reason offered for assuming the catspaw is a catspaw. 

(AGoT, Ch.14 Catelyn III)

Like a lot of Stark/Tully reasoning, Ser Rodrick's argument seems somewhat specious on a second read.

Like, we know that there were some short Targaryens (Aegon V, Danerys), and anyone who had spent a week or two dossing down in a stables without bathing was likely to be dirty, have filthy clothing, and stink of horses. He is incredibly inept for an assassin- he didn't expect Catelyn to be there, and "It's a mercy he is dead already" may well indicate that he thought Bran was already dead.

So yeah, short incognito Targaryen/Blackfire person in Winterfell, possibly setting fire to the library, definitely not intending to kill Catelyn. Makes as much sense as any catspaw theory I've read.

Hmmm. I’m kind of struggling to see how Illyrio would be so deeply connected to activities in Westeros.

But I’m seriously considering that Illyrio is really Gerion Lannister exiled by Tywin who seeks to take over Casterly Rock and perhaps more. Gerion would be very tuned into the Stark/Lannister animosity and I can see him having good reason to try to stoke that with the ends of weakening Tywin. Killing/sacrificing children for wealth and/or power is a perennial theme among Lannisters and taking out Bran fits right into that.

 

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On 19/03/2018 at 11:38 PM, fire&blood said:

What does the food code say about blackberries? What does this rusted iron hinge screaming in protest mean? Is it making us think that Euron raped his brother or brothers?

We do get an explanation of the meaning of the screaming hinge in Aeron’s WoW sample chapter...

Spoiler

where it is confirmed that Euron was sexually abusing Aeron and Urrigon.

 

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The Jon/Dany romance story which so many on this forum wish for has already been written. It's the Twilight series. 

 

The sparkly and dramatic Edward Dany will come along and romance the melancholy and stuck in dreary normality Bella stuck in the dreary North Jon who must choose between Edward Dany and a relatively normal undramatic life with the werewolf Jacob the wolfy Starks . Bella  Jon chooses Edward Dany eventually resulting in Edward Dany turning Bella  into a Vampire Jon into a Targ so that they can live happily forever after live happily ever after and create a forever Targ Restoration and of course they will have super special Vampire Dragon babies.

 

The Vampire Dracula was based on Vlad the Impaler also known as Vlad Dracul which is translated as Vlad the Dragon.

It all boils down to Team Edward Team Targaryen or Team Jacob Team Stark. :D

 

 

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Trumpets were blowing all around, loud and brazen. The wildlings have no trumpets, only warhorns. They knew that as well as he did; the sound sent free folk running in confusion, some toward the fighting, others away. A mammoth was stomping through a flock of sheep that three men were trying to herd off west. The drums were beating as the wildlings ran to form squares and lines, but they were too late, too disorganized, too slow. The enemy was emerging from the forest, from the east, the northeast, the north; three great columns of heavy horse, all dark glinting steel and bright wool surcoats. Not the men of Eastwatch, those had been no more than a line of scouts. An army. The king? Jon was as confused as the wildlings. Could Robb have returned? Had the boy on the Iron Throne finally bestirred himself? "You best get back inside the tent," he told Val.

ASOS Jon X

Stannis gave a curt nod. "Your father was a man of honor. He was no friend to me, but I saw his worth. Your brother was a rebel and a traitor who meant to steal half my kingdom, but no man can question his courage. What of you?"

ASOS Jon XI

I never noticed Jon doesn't learn of Robb until after Stannis' arrival.

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On 3/23/2018 at 2:18 PM, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

We do get an explanation of the meaning of the screaming hinge in Aeron’s WoW sample chapter...

  Hide contents

where it is confirmed that Euron was sexually abusing Aeron and Urrigon.

 

The screaming hinge business puts me in mind of Melisandre's comment about hinges of the world and rusty iron hinges on long unused doorways.  I wonder if this has something more to do with something nasty coming into the world through a screaming hinge.

I get the sense that Euron isn't all Euron at least some of the time.  The notion that a rusty door opens and something on the other side of the door is screaming is quite spooky.  LOL!  Howling may not be screaming, but close to it:

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A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… don't want to wake the dragon …"

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

The screaming swords of the White Walkers is perhaps an indicator that magic is involved when screaming doors and hinges are mentioned.  Euron, "maddest of them all" could be described as un-hinged and I suspect an abomination.

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(ADWD, The Prince of Winterfell)
No longswords had been allowed within the hall, but every man there wore a dagger, even Theon Greyjoy.

(ADWD, The Ghost of Winterfell)
The man put a hand on his dagger. "Theon Turncloak. Theon Kinslayer."

 

Not even the weapon helps figuring out.

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On ‎3‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 5:40 PM, LynnS said:

The screaming hinge business puts me in mind of Melisandre's comment about hinges of the world and rusty iron hinges on long unused doorways.  I wonder if this has something more to do with something nasty coming into the world through a screaming hinge.

I get the sense that Euron isn't all Euron at least some of the time.  The notion that a rusty door opens and something on the other side of the door is screaming is quite spooky.  LOL!  Howling may not be screaming, but close to it:

The screaming swords of the White Walkers is perhaps an indicator that magic is involved when screaming doors and hinges are mentioned.  Euron, "maddest of them all" could be described as un-hinged and I suspect an abomination.

Very interesting!! Thank you for that.

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"Is it the wildlings?" she asked.
"Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."
"Beyond the Wall?" The thought made Catelyn shudder.
Ned saw the dread on her face. "Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear.
"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.
His smile was gentle. "You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one."
"Until this morning, no living man had ever seen a direwolf either," Catelyn reminded him. 
"I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he said with a rueful smile. He slid Ice back into its sheath. "You did not come here to tell me crib tales. I know how little you like this place. What is it, my lady?"

 

Dark Wings, Dark Words...
 
Upon rereading, I have to admit this section is confusing... and full of irony.
 
Mance is in Winterfell shortly after this, ostensibly to “see the king”... 
 
Is Mance even the King Beyond the Wall Ned is referring too? Because he just looked at Ice, and... it’s almost like he’s answering his own question, who else? (Others!)
 
And he says right after that Mance is nothing to fear... which is a strange follow up to saying things will only get worse (winter is coming?) and he might have to raise an army to deal with it one day.
 
Cat brings up the darker things, weirwood, direwolves... and then...
 
know better than to argue with a tully?
 
is that even a thing? I’ve read this series a few too many times, but still I don’t understand this line...
 
Unless it is some odd reference to the ancient unclassifiable Tully Monster... I just don’t get it, but this whole section has the taste of a passage meant to be better understood only after the story has played out...
 
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Every re-read is an opportunity to notice something you hadn't before, that's why these books never get old (well, except literally because I've had to tape them together to keep them in one piece lol) :read:

Here's another one that triggered the "Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen's son" for me, at least. (Don't want to trigger the R+L=J non-believers) ;)

Samwell III, AFFC 27

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That made him angry too. Dareon was not supposed to be making up songs about courtesans. He was supposed to be singing about the Wall and the valor of the Night's Watch. Jon had hoped that perhaps his songs might persuade a few young men to take the black. Instead he sang of golden kisses, silvery hair, and red, red lips. No one ever took the black for red, red lips.

The description of Dareon the singer and silvery hair makes me think of Rhaegar. The constant red and black being the colors of House Targaryen and how it was Jon's idea to send Dareon around to sing about NW and get some recruits for the Wall.

A little bit of a stretch for the "No one" usage but hey why not - No one = Arya, Arya being a resemblance of Lyanna and the closest "sister" to Jon. I just appreciate GRRM's writing so much! :wub:

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8 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

know better than to argue with a tully?

"I ought to know better than to argue with a Tully," he said with a rueful smile.

Perhaps he is referring to Hoster, from the time before Robert's Rebellion.  Maybe Hoster refused to lend his men to the cause until after Catelyn was married to Ned and Lysa to Jon Arryn.  There may have been some arguing/negotiating at that time.  

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