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Wow, I never noticed that v.16


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Umbers and Karstarks have plenty of brothers, uncles and cousins lying around, just like the Tyrells and Lannisters. So much for Northman pride and the honor in being a brother of NW.

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn I 

"Ser Stafford Lannister, it's said." He turned to gaze out over the rivers, his red-and-blue cloak stirring in the breeze.
"Another nephew?" The Lannisters of Casterly Rock were a damnably large and fertile house. 
"Cousin," Ser Brynden corrected. "Brother to Lord Tywin's late wife, so twice related. An old man and a bit of a dullard, but he has a son, Ser Daven, who is more formidable."

 

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Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Umbers and Karstarks have plenty of brothers, uncles and cousins lying around, just like the Tyrells and Lannisters. So much for Northman pride and the honor in being a brother of NW.

And not many named Umbers and Karstarks at the Wall. 

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21 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Somewhere there is a mention of someone called Tumberjon or somesuch who I assume is an Umber...

Yes, there is. He was at the Fist. He probably died there.

I don't think we can assume that there are no Umbers or Karstarks at the Wall. Big Liddle certainly popped out of nowhere in ADWD and we don't know who is at Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower.

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12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Yes, there is. He was at the Fist. He probably died there.

I don't think we can assume that there are no Umbers or Karstarks at the Wall. Big Liddle certainly popped out of nowhere in ADWD and we don't know who is at Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower.

Erm, didn’t Big Liddle travel to the wall, rather than being part of the NW?

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Yes, there is. He was at the Fist. He probably died there.

I don't think we can assume that there are no Umbers or Karstarks at the Wall. Big Liddle certainly popped out of nowhere in ADWD and we don't know who is at Eastwatch or the Shadow Tower.

True, but so few are named from the great Northern houses. 

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Erm, didn’t Big Liddle travel to the wall, rather than being part of the NW?

No, that was his dad... The Liddle. Big Liddle is a man of the Night's Watch. Middle Liddle is with Stannis. We don't know where Little Liddle is. 

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9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And not many named Umbers and Karstarks at the Wall. 

Well, there could be some with no names given if that's what you mean but a third of the watch goes ranging and the rest gather for voting later on. If there were any Umbers, well Jon is perceptive enough to spot him.

As for Karstarks if there were any then surely Alys' and her "uncle"s arrival was a good oppurtunity show us a test of vows.

This makes me think that Umbers and Karstarks are maybe more southron in their ways. Alys at 6 trying to seduce Robb also came across as somewhat southron to me.

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Well, there could be some with no names given if that's what you mean but a third of the watch goes ranging and the rest gather for voting later on. If there were any Umbers, well Jon is perceptive enough to spot him.

As for Karstarks if there were any then surely Alys' and her "uncle"s arrival was a good oppurtunity show us a test of vows.

This makes me think that Umbers and Karstarks are maybe more southron in their ways. Alys at 6 trying to seduce Robb also came across as somewhat southron to me.

But we don’t see any Northern family’s of note really committing themselves to the NW. so rather than being more “southron” (a distinction people on here really seem to overexaggerate imo) maybe it’s just an indication of the generally declining state of the NW

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The Maiden lay athwart the Warrior, her arms widespread as if to embrace him.

Davos I, Clash 10

Sansa and the Hound or Brienne and Jaime

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The Mother seemed almost to shudder as the flames came licking up her face. A longsword had been thrust through her heart, and its leather grip was alive with flame.

Davos I, Clash 10

Catelyn

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The Father was on the bottom, the first to fall.

Davos I, Clash 10

Eddard

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Davos watched the hand of the Stranger writhe and curl as the fingers blackened and fell away one by one, reduced to so much glowing charcoal.

Davos I, Clash 10

Arya

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Sorry of this has been mentioned already, and it isn't really anything huge, but I just started a re-listen while I work when this pricked my ear...

I guess the song o'the winter rose is a sad song and maybe the one the Rhaegar sang to the wolf maid??? I can't find any lyrics on that song :dunno:

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.
She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"
"I never knew my mother. Or any such song."

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse, this wolf maid, so he let the young pup find him garb suitable to a king's feast, and went up to the great castle.
"Under Harren's roof he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen. The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head. A black brother spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch. The storm lord drank down the knight of skulls and kisses in a wine-cup war. The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.
 
Which made me think of something I posted here a long while back...

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

[Bael the Bard talk]
"It never happened," Jon said.
She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."
"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon. <<<--- this line is now very intriguing.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.
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"I wanted a whore, but there's none to be found here. All gone to Ashford Meadow. Gods be good, I need some wine."

So now we know where whores go.

This is Egg's alcoholic brother, Prince Daeron, speaking in the common room of the inn where Dunk stops before proceeding to the tourney in The Hedge Knight. I'm just starting a Dunk & Egg re-read in the re-read section of the forum.

 

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Speaking of Dunc & Egg. 

Dunc and the power of destiny.

When he stopped to offer awkward sympathies, well larded with thanks, Prince Valarr blinked cool blue eyes at him and said, "My father was only nine-and-thirty. He had it in him to be a great king, the greatest since Aegon the Dragon. Why would the gods take him, and leave you?

the blood of the dragon gathered in one . . . even eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king's own septon had warned . . .
. . . pyromanders . . . wildfire . . . flames grew out of control . . . towering . . . burned so hot that . . . died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman . . .

Every time I read this passage with Valarr, all I can think of is what happened at Summerhall and how powerful it is that his destiny all along may have been to die there after whatever his heroic deed was.

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"You must be a lackwit, boy," said Lem. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate." (Arya VII, ASOS 39)

"You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess"

"Aye. I will." Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish Princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups. (Sam II, ASOS 33)

". . . nor riding in no tourney in stolen armor."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heard tree of the old gods, a while weirwood with a laughing red face." (Bran II, ASOS 24)

The possible reference of Elia and Lyanna (I do think she was the KotLT) in the same passage, but through whatever songs were sung about the two events.

(I know that Barristan Selmy also wore ill-fitted armor when he entered the list at the age of 10. But we find out about that in ADWD)

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15 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

"You must be a lackwit, boy," said Lem. "We're outlaws. Lowborn scum, most of us, excepting his lordship. Don't think it'll be like Tom's fool songs neither. You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess, nor riding in no tourneys in stolen armor. You join us, you'll end with your neck in a noose, or your head mounted up above some castle gate." (Arya VII, ASOS 39)

"You won't be stealing no kisses from a princess"

"Aye. I will." Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish Princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups. (Sam II, ASOS 33)

". . . nor riding in no tourney in stolen armor."

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heard tree of the old gods, a while weirwood with a laughing red face." (Bran II, ASOS 24)

The possible reference of Elia and Lyanna (I do think she was the KotLT) in the same passage, but through whatever songs were sung about the two events.

I know it's obnoxious to quote myself, but I realized that this quote may actually be important if the speculation that Lem is Richard Lonmouth turns out to be true. Richard would have known both Elia and Lyanna and these two stories that would have involved them. So it just makes it more interesting that he would have chosen two events that he would have been well aware of.

*disclaimer: I did not look at the Richard Lonmouth speculation, so I don't know if this was discussed in it.

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Not sure if it means anything but here it goes, Targaryens had two swords their house later gets splitted into two major branches (I am excluding any possible minor ones) with either branch owning a VS. 

Starks have lost control of their sword but their Greatsword is reforged into two swords, perhaps so the great house of Stark would get a split in the future?

Since Jon already has Longclaw my candidates would be Sansa and Rickon, however since Jon's identity as a bastard is a lie he may let go of the bastard sword which he so reluctantly took, then my candidates would be Widow's Wail for Sansa and Oathkeeper for Jon.

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A Storm of Swords - Jaime IX 

"I'm the bloody Kingslayer, remember? When I say you have honor, that's like a whore vouchsafing your maidenhood." He leaned back and looked up at her. "Steelshanks is on his way back north, to deliver Arya Stark to Roose Bolton."

"You gave her to him?" she cried, dismayed. "You swore an oath to Lady Catelyn . . ." 

"With a sword at my throat, but never mind. Lady Catelyn's dead. I could not give her back her daughters even if I had them. And the girl my father sent with Steelshanks was not Arya Stark."

I never noticed that Brienne was privy to the knowledge that Jeyne is fArya. 

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Nothing too important just Sansa giving a thought on Jon as early as game (Have seen people claim she only starta thinking of him in Vale)

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"There was a black brother," Sansa said, "begging men for the Wall, only he was kind of old and smelly." She hadn't liked that at all. She had always imagined the Night's Watch to be men like Uncle Benjen. In the songs, they were called the black knights of the Wall. But this man had been crookbacked and hideous, and he looked as though he might have lice. If this was what the Night's Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon.

 

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26 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I never noticed that Brienne was privy to the knowledge that Jeyne is fArya. 

Oh yeah.

Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Roose, Theon, Lady Dustin, Lady Dustin's handmaids who attend Jeyne, other lords currently at Winterfell, Littlefinger (of course), and someone else I just realized the other day knows the current "Arya" is fake (I'll add it when I remember it). They don't all know it is really Jeyne Poole, but when that triple whammy of info hits Sansa's ears, Uncle Creepyfinger will be Uncle Deadfinger.

The entire marriage from bride to "legitimization" to the weirwood laughing at the folly is a mummer's play and all who are involved know it.

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24 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh yeah.

Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, Roose, Theon, Lady Dustin, Lady Dustin's handmaids who attend Jeyne, other lords currently at Winterfell, Littlefinger (of course), and someone else I just realized the other day knows the current "Arya" is fake (I'll add it when I remember it). They don't all know it is really Jeyne Poole, but when that triple whammy of info hits Sansa's ears, Uncle Creepyfinger will be Uncle Deadfinger.

The entire marriage from bride to "legitimization" to the weirwood laughing at the folly is a mummer's play and all who are involved know it.

Catelyn? Cat would now know that the Bolton bride is not her Arya.  This may throw a wrench in the Harwin is the hooded man theory since she knows there is no point of going there to Save Arya.

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